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  Java3D 1.4 release  (Read 4773 times)
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Offline zero

Junior Member





« Posted 2003-02-21 08:44:32 »

Hi all,

are there any news out for Java3D 1.4, perhaps a specification beta anouncement ?

greetings
-Michael Nischt
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-02-21 10:02:14 »

Hope there will be a 1.4 at all!

Including the shader stuff would be a logical step.

I'd like to see some easy-to-use tools for 2D overlays. Swing for Java3D, so to say. But this is inspired by my current needs instead of strategical consideration.



HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-02-21 10:53:08 »

yes, IMHO access to stencil/alpha buffer and the shader stuff became a must for professional 3d gfx.
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Offline bmyers

Junior Member





« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-02-21 14:52:51 »

When I talked to the Sun guys last year about the 1.4 release they said one key feature was to enable vendor-supplied plug-ins, so you could add NURBS support, shaders, etc. if your target platform supported them.

I don't know if that's still the case or not.

Maybe Chris can chime in?

--Brad

Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-02-25 19:07:49 »

with no answers from sun guys, I tend to believe the rumors mentioned Java3D mailing-list (Is Java3D going to be end-of-lifed?)

unfortuanlly it is maybe time to switch to C# with DirectX9 for high-end ed gdx using an application, object oriented language. Sad
Offline nlmueng

Junior Member





« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-02-25 19:35:02 »

It is supposed to come out in august according to JSR-189.  Here is their schedule:

2.11 Please describe the anticipated schedule for the development of this specification.
The current schedule of this JSR is as follows:

7/2002 - Approval of JSR
8/2002 - Formation of Expert Group
2/2003 - Submit Community Draft Specification
4/2003 - Submit Public Draft Specification
8/2003 - Submit Final Draft Specification, Reference Implementation, and TCK
(taken from http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=189)


nathan
Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-02-27 07:09:16 »

thanks for reply, I missed the shedule on jsr189 page.

but shedules on jsr pages tend not to be very excact Wink

extract from JavaGameProfile page
( http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=134 )

2.11 Please describe the anticipated schedule for the development of this specification.

We intend to have a publicly reviewable draft in Summer 2001. Within a year of that a reference implementation and TCK should be available with a final specification.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
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Maximumisness


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-02-27 09:13:47 »

JSR-134 is one of the main reasons I don't trust anything Sun say per default until they actually deliver (and I must admit, sometimes they do).
Let's face it, games are not exactly priority at Sun and JCP is not exactly a very efficient thing.

It's better to go our own way and not make ourselves dependant of Sun. The community can move faster and more efficiently like that as for example LWJGL and other projects have shown.

Sure, you can jump ship and go for C#, but then you will be coding for M$ and M$ alone and go where ever M$ wants you to go. I'd like to keep my options open for anything else than M$.

Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-02-27 14:31:25 »

if i were to go game programming and only selectable languages would be java and c# i would go
c#, java is so freaking slow when it comes to gaming/standalone progs. only place where java comes in is on www(jsp,servlets,etc...), if even there.

beside c# does run on linux(Mono)
and for gfx i would go opengl winex doesn't support yet directx9 very well.
Offline erikd

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Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-02-27 14:40:42 »

I don't think java is slow at all.

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Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-02-27 15:10:01 »

of course it is not slow (as it used to be - to be honest)- but what comment would one expect from guy coming to javagaming site and saying c# is the only choice ....  
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-02-27 15:20:58 »

It ain't particularly fast either, as we've come to discover over the last two years of intensive discussion and optimisation. I'm sure it'll get there one day, when they add all the little tweaks we've been asking for, and fix all the broken optimisations and dud code in the current Hotspot compiler.

Do you think Java3D 1.4 will arrive before or after Java gets speeded up?

Cas Smiley

Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-02-27 15:31:41 »

I didn't intend to start a flame on Java and C#.

I prefer Java a lot over C# and not only because of that M$ blah blah (o.k. don't like ther policy either), the only reason why I mentioned my thoughts about switching are the features of DirectX.

LWJGL is fine for most, and it is probably as plattform indenpendent as Java3D (there is an MacOS X port - right?), but don't ask me why - I personally dislike it.. (/me ignorant)
Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-02-27 16:01:33 »

== Do you think Java3D 1.4 will arrive before or after Java gets speeded up?==

Personally I would love to see Java3D come first - but for SUN it would make more sense to speed up the whole thing and then look after other problems .....

btw today's article on sun site about virtual reality which mentions Java3D  is a positive sight ..... considering author's credentials ......
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-02-27 16:06:00 »

Quote
but don't ask me why - I personally dislike it


Why?  Grin

Quote
Do you think Java3D 1.4 will arrive before or after Java gets speeded up?

Grin


BTW I probably shouldn't have commented on that 'starlord' troll.  :-/
But still, I would be interested in a good game-specific benchmark comparing C#-OGL running on Linux and Java-OGL. I'm not at all sure C# will outperform Java.
Anyway, until there is such a benchmark there's absolutely no point in a C# vs Java debate as it's all just a pointless MS-lovers vs MS-haters cakefight.

Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-02-27 16:45:19 »

Mmmmmm..... cake fight.....
Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-02-28 04:37:14 »

don't get me wrong, i LOVE java and alway will do,
i have been using for 3 year's now, but i don't think java will ever dominate or even get a slice of cake in gaming indrusty.

it's too slow for gaming althought very good alternative for gaming script's(some where i saw quake2(3?) to have mod so you can script with java for quake engine)

hopefully sun releases new version's(J2SE and Java3D)soon with better performance.

what sun really need is faster release's(it's now 13 months???) to keep up.

Java3D should have better support for opengl(now 1.2?)
don't care about directx support atleast one of them have good fully updated.

althought 1.2 and 1.3 has only extensions added anything else?
Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-02-28 04:38:25 »

ok, i was wrong, java will dominate on mobile platform!!!

sun should create J2SE suited for gaming and change licenses way that allow's coder's to include VM on they game/prog. or split the vm on part so user's can download the part's they need, there are still users with modem!!!

Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-02-28 04:57:10 »

Quote
Mmmmmm..... cake fight.....


naah, just healthy discussion
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-02-28 07:35:04 »

Quote
naah, just healthy discussion

Grin good one

Well, I agree with you that if java is used as a game scripting language you probably would have the most powerful scripting language to date. As I mentioned before, not pointing out that java *has* been used for that in various top selling games was a missed opportunity for sun.

But still, pointing out that java is dead slow (which is simply incorrect) and C# is the language of choice for gaming is just plain rediculous.
I haven't seen hard evidence that C# is in fact faster than Java and I doubt it's true.
If it is true, the speed differency can be only marginal at best.

Hmmm... I'm now discussing something I said was a pointless discussion...  Tongue

Anyway here's some benchmarks for java-C/C++
http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html
(It's not targeted at gaming, but it should make clear that java is not as slow as you think)

Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-02-28 08:00:52 »

ok,
noticeable speed diffrence can be seen,comparing speed with Java3D and Opengl wrapper(hmm like gl4java or lwjgl).

with c/c++ and java(with gl4java,..) there's no big diffrence.

when you create same scene(big!!) with java3d and someother gl wrapper,let's take gl4java
you can see the diffrence.

and java3d doesn't support all the feature's opengl could support,once again speeding up release's will fix this.

my personal opinion is that java3d should drop directx,it only supports M$ platform, well we do have winex but i dont think it's going to be 100% compatible with windows based directx,atleast not yet.

for taking c# as granted for gaming,ofcourse not, but you have to agree that it does have better starting point than java,don't you agree?

there's only one project that has huge potential and that is magicosm(based on java3d?), it's good gfx,based on java, there's only one but, how about performance? i haven't seen demo of it, so i can't judge.

any other java3d based projects?

i haven't had time to test lwjgl so i don't know how it perform's vs gl4java or java3d,anyone?

althought i'm quite negative for java3d performance it doesn't mean it can't be used!

biggest problem i'm facing at the moment how to perform packaging:
-game can be made for small space,depending on game(how large),this is not a problem
-j2se take's huge space,java3d take's huge space

only insane modem user's will download those!!!
don't know how the phone cost's is charged in other countries but in here it's per minute and it's going to be a lot!!
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-02-28 09:26:25 »

Quote
for taking c# as granted for gaming,ofcourse not, but you have to agree that it does have better starting point than java,don't you agree?


Frankly, I don't know.
A lot more games have been written in Java, that's for sure (if not 3d).

Java3D, while I think it's an interesting API, it's not proven for high performance gaming and I share your doubts against j3d performance because it's not designed for that specific reason.

Quote
-j2se take's huge space

J2SE is smaller than DX9. Both are one-time downloads. Maybe Sun should focus on distributing the VM outside the net. Like have one good game created and distribute it together with the VM on all coverdisks they can find for free.
IIRC the .net platform is a lot larger than J2SE (I think it was about 50Mb). No way that's gonna be dl-ed on my PC through my 56k modem. Especially since I don't know any good game for it. Or any game for it for that matter...

Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-02-28 09:48:52 »

have to agree on that sun should distribute outside net,java back to linux distro's(it has been,but not anymore?), and for windows to include java vm(wasn't there a lawsuit about this?)

the fact is that .net framework will be included in future windows releases and so should java.

for:
Maybe Sun should focus on distributing the VM outside the net. Like have one good game created and distribute it together with the VM on all coverdisks they can find for free.


that's the best idea i have heard a while,maybe the contest winner(or all the entries) get game published on magazine(contest that they are talking on suggestions forum)

rumor says that if you own xbox you already have .net
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-02-28 10:41:12 »

Quote
the fact is that .net framework will be included in future windows releases and so should java.


You're right, but it's not going to happen if M$ can help it.
There was a lawsuit about that. Sun had actually won that and M$ had to include java in windows within 150 days (IIRC). But M$ went into appeal and now they don't have to anymore.

Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-02-28 10:48:53 »

althought i wouldn't use the java vm that M$ includes in future windows if it were to happen.

they would do the same thing like they did for opera for msn site, or was that even true.
Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Member




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-02-28 11:07:30 »

My personal opinion is that Java/OpenGL should be Sun suported. I mean look at the technologies... I mean OpenGL is available on even more platforms thant Java and hardware acceleration is required for media rendering. I mean the JRE connects to the computer at some point so why not have OpenGL as the connection between the GPU and Java where JRE is the connection between rest of the environment and Java.

This would make million things so much easier, but no since OpenGL would break java as a language so much. As close as I can get to this is LWGL and its future, which looks very interesting, especially since it has quite powerful community(and princec(cas) who is god among men).
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-02-28 11:43:17 »

Quote
althought i wouldn't use the java vm that M$ includes in future windows if it were to happen.


The court fight was/is about including the latest Sun JRE in the windows distribution. The old M$ JVM causes more harm than good.

Quote
My personal opinion is that Java/OpenGL should be Sun suported

Yes, I agree. It's the practical thing to do and makes sense. Going for java3d instead of explicitly supporting openGL in java was not a good idea I think.

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-02-28 12:37:12 »

It's funny that we need a benchmark isn't it? I mean, I don't even really have a bench, never mind a way for any computer language to mark it.

I know it's not relevant, but that just suddenly seemed a really weird word so I thought I'd share.
Offline erikd

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Medals: 16
Projects: 4
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Maximumisness


« Reply #28 - Posted 2003-03-01 09:19:49 »

Talking about benchmarks (which *is* a funny word Wink), did you know that the EULA of .NET says that you may not publish any benchmarks without M$'s written permission?

That may explain a few things, like the total lack of unbiased benchmarks.  :-/

Offline starlord

Junior Member





« Reply #29 - Posted 2003-03-01 09:33:48 »

true, and there are other examples of bad benchmarking,
for example newest futuremark is BAD.
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