260MB min install! (java 1.4.2_05) - BUG - JDK

[blahblahblahh]

EDIT: (as requested) when I say "JVM" below I mean "JDK install of JRE and / or JDK"

WTF is going on!?? I come to install the latest JVM on windows, and discover that not only is the download a shockingly bloated 51Mb (compared to the 30-odd I'm used to with linux) but when it comes to install the MINIMUM option I'm allowed is to install the JVM WITH 120MB REQUIRED! and when you go to the next page it says "actually, I need 259Mb).

(/me begins to wonder if this is what MS were paying Sun for earlier this year... [nb: tongue in cheek, in case not obvious])

What can I say? java.sun.com appears to have achieved another great leap backwards for the adoption of Java. .

[blahblahblahh]

Update: this really takes the friggin biscuit.

You are not allowed to download anything from the sun.com website more than once. You have to leave the site, return to the original page, and start again.

For security reasons, you may only download any file once per transaction (a "transaction" is a single session on the SDLC, from login to download). If your download fails part way through, just click the same link again. However, if the system records that you have completed the download, the link will be disabled.

Security reasons . One wonders if anyone at Sun even remembers that they used to be a company that had a good reputation for networks and servers, rather than a company competing with MS and HP-compaq for title of "most moronic corporate decisions"...

[Breakfast]

Something is annoying you?  

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[darkprophet]

blah, how is this related to games? No offence, but youd like more moderators who keep watch what your doing, and your a moderator yourself, why dont you post this in the right place in the first place? Offtopic

Its just that alot of these forums are being cluttered with nonsense these days.

This is a forum, and a professional one if I might add, not your website's blog.

DP

[blahblahblahh]

blah, how is this related to games?

Because:
- all the people who play my games need a JVM
- most people (85%+ going by JGF stats) are using windows
- as noted previously by people like dom (crystalsquid) there are already more than enough difficulties getting people to install / update java (even though I personally consider the benefits of requiring it to currently outweigh the loss in users for my own games)
- if there's a way around this 300Mb madness I need to know in order to help out when gamesplayers are refusing to play my game(s) because of this
- ditto for when I try to argue on behalf of java games developers as part of my JGF work

why dont you post this in the right place in the first place? Offtopic

No way. The right place for this is "JVMs and java game distribution". Unfortunately, I couldn't find that forum anywhere and there's already a backlog of 4 (off the top of my head) requested-and-agreed-upon categories from the jgo community that have yet to be created ... so it didn't seem a sensible move to wait for the category to appear!

Do you see what I'm getting at?

This is a forum, and a professional one if I might add, not your website's blog.

LOL I hate blogs. I think your comments here are misguided, but I definitely prefer you to discuss than to keep quiet .

[darkprophet]

hold up. hold up. What your downloading is the SDK, not the JRE. The JRE is a mere 14.9Mb download offline installation. So the following comments are no longer valid:

Because:
- all the people who play my games need a JVM
- most people (85%+ going by JGF stats) are using windows
- as noted previously by people like dom (crystalsquid) there are already more than enough difficulties getting people to install / update java (even though I personally consider the benefits of requiring it to currently outweigh the loss in users for my own games)
- if there's a way around this 300Mb madness I need to know in order to help out when gamesplayers are refusing to play my game(s) because of this
- ditto for when I try to argue on behalf of java games developers as part of my JGF work

because you were taking the SDK's figures not JRE figures and you were referring to people playing it, not developers developing.

So in escense, your last post about the game distribution and stuff is nonesense.

DP

[blahblahblahh]

Depending upon how you find java, you may easily end up downloading the JDK. How many games players know the difference between JDK and JRE let alone which they want? Sun's webpages confuses already with the arbitrary "desktop java" moniker rubbish .

What about the games where the developer wants to use the server VM (which is distributed with the JRE on every platform except windows)?

What about the fact that the JRE won't even attempt to install if you don't have XXMb (it doesn't say what hte minimum is, just that 39Mb was too little) free on C: - won't even allow you to choose somewhere else?

(which is a problem for anyone who has a properly partitioned windows PC and chooses not to put java on C: so that they can reinstall the OS at whim without having to re-install or backup data and apps)

[blahblahblahh]

hold up. hold up. What your downloading is the SDK, not the JRE.

Although, the above aside, in theory I take your point - except...Isn't this a site primarily for "java games developers"? (I don't see any games around here??? so if it's for players then it's a pretty pants website...)

[darkprophet]

its all so very simple for the user.

point em to http://www.java.com and let them press that little green button at the side.

You CANNOT download the SDK from there. Its that simple.

If the developer wanted the user to use the server JVM, let them package it with the game. Or for windows, compile using gcj or something. This has been discussed till death on other threads, and now your forcing me to repeat what other people have said

Just keep the boards clean, none of the personal i hate that and that business.

DP

[blahblahblahh]

its all so very simple for the user.

Except that it seems to me you are ignoring the list of reasons I just gave why it isn't that simple. Confused .

I originally posted because I thought I must have done something wrong - perhaps I'd slipped and clicked twice instead of onece, so that I skipped a page and didn't notice that the mouse had clicked on some link that grabbed a cookie which then made java.sun.com think I wanted the "hebrew and arabic JVM with extra meaty goodness, and please save this setting for all future visits" or some such .

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[oNyx]

Jesus... my heart just skipped a beat.

Adam, can you please edit your initial post... point out that you AREN'T taking about the JRE.

And as DP said, point everyone who wants to play at java.com

[erikd]

Damn, is it still lilke that?!  
I've seen this with an earlier 1.4.2 release and came across a page on the sun website stating that this is actually a bug in the installer, causing me to start backing up and uninstalling things just to find out the JDK didn't actually need that much.
So I figures "ah well, shit happens. Should be fixed within days". I'm shocked the installer is still broken after months.

[blahblahblahh]

Damn, is it still lilke that?!  
I've seen this with an earlier 1.4.2 release and came across a page on the sun website stating that this is actually a bug in the installer,

Ah! Thanks. Do you remember whereabouts you found the page (takes me forever + 1 day to find anything non trivial on the sun site, so I'll have not much chance without some hints) since they might have updated with extra info if it's been a long time and/or because of the recent new release?

[erikd]

Note:

Due to a bug, 371MB or more of free disk space are required for the Windows SDK installation.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/install-notes/disk-space.html

[ChrisM]

Except that it seems to me you are ignoring the list of reasons I just gave why it isn't that simple. Confused .

I originally posted because I thought I must have done something wrong - perhaps I'd slipped and clicked twice instead of onece, so that I skipped a page and didn't notice that the mouse had clicked on some link that grabbed a cookie which then made java.sun.com think I wanted the "hebrew and arabic JVM with extra meaty goodness, and please save this setting for all future visits" or some such .

Changed the inital post to reflect that this was a bug.

Also, DP is correct.  For consumers that will be playing your games, Java.Com only allows the dl of the JRE and most of it is invisible to the user.  Also, we are currently working on a method to do a background dl from a 1.1 applet that can be added to almost any web component or game.  This incremental dl will help to get the installation of a current Java VM in more platforms for you to then target.

-Chris

[blahblahblahh]

Changed the inital post to reflect that this was a bug.

Thanks. Sometimes a pity that with yabb we can't do that kind of editing ourselves.

This incremental dl

Cas will be very pleased, no doubt .

[princec]

Indeed I will

Cas

[oNyx]

Me too

[William Denniss]

Also, we are currently working on a method to do a background dl from a 1.1 applet that can be added to almost any web component or game.  This incremental dl will help to get the installation of a current Java VM in more platforms for you to then target.

-Chris

I look forward to seeing this!

Will.