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  Java 3D open sourced? is there any affect on Xith?  (Read 4368 times)
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Offline meowmeow70

Innocent Bystander




Java games rock!


« Posted 2004-06-27 03:43:40 »

I heard rumor that java 3D has been open sourced. will it affect the development or the future direction of Xith 3d ?
I am planning to port java 3d application to Xith  due to performance reason. Besides Java 3d seems to halt development and I am worried about vitality of sun's java 3d api in long run.

what is your opinion?

thanks,

Meow

Offline Jens

Senior Devvie




Java for games!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-06-27 04:44:58 »

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=xith3d;action=display;num=1079599062

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=xith3d;action=display;num=1079591437

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Devvie




Speak Java!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-06-27 06:20:08 »

Hi,

Quote
I heard rumor that java 3D has been open sourced.


This is not a rumor anymore. The source code is published at https://java3d.dev.java.net/.

There are several points related to Xith3D and Java3D:

1. Xith3D is focused on games, while Java3D is focused on visulaization systems:

As Doug Twilleager wrote,
Quote
Java 3D and Xith3D can co-exist with no problem.  Xith3D has a focus on games, and some non-games applications can take advantage of the things that it has.  There is also a very large Java 3D development community that doesn't make games.  Because of Java 3D's asynchronous multithreaded design, it fits very will into visualization systems.  It's focus is not likely to change because of its large visualization installed base.  So, having a games focused scene graph is a good thing.


Java3D implements thread-safe scenegraph, while Xith3D implements non-thread-safe one, and here is a major performance difference.

Java3D 1.4 seems to remain thread safe: at https://j3d-core.dev.java.net/ you can read

Quote
...We envision 1.4 including features such as programmable shaders. Our goal is to minimize large scale changes to the system in order to deliver 1.4 as quickly as possible.


And this implicitly means that thread safety most probably will be preserved.

2. Short note: Java3D is published as subproject of JavaDesktop, not JavaGames. I see good reasons of doing this, but I think this is a clear indication of Java3D target user group.

3. There is one very important issue: licensing.

For me, Java3D licenses are too restrictive. Xith3D released under BSD license, so you can do with it nearly whatever you want. Read Java3D license and you will see a lot of explicit and implicit limitations.

4. We will keep trying to be as compatible with Java3D as possible, and if new (alive) JSR will be filed for Java-based 3D scenegraph, we will try to keep compatible with it, having in mind needs of Java game development.

5. These days I am getting ready to start full power with LWJGL support for Xith3D, which is mostly maintainability question - I want to keep both JOGL and LWJGL renderers to be absolutely synchronized (in development) and to have single codebase for both. This will need some time, but after we will get 100% community-driven solution for 3D programming in Java (OK, another one).

There are a lot of ideas related to this project, and any suggestions are welcome.

Yuri

P.S. I think this will be 3rd time this week I say "Xith3D is not dead".

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-06-27 07:31:05 »

Quote
5. These days I am getting ready to start full power with LWJGL support for Xith3D, which is mostly maintainability question - I want to keep both JOGL and LWJGL renderers to be absolutely synchronized (in development) and to have single codebase for both. This will need some time, but after we will get 100% community-driven solution for 3D programming in Java (OK, another one).


This is something we want to try in Survivor, having had some  problems which we suspected are JOGL-related. It would be nice if xith.org had some overt statement about the comparitive statuses of the LWJGL and JOGL bindings (I couldn't see anything anywhere, but I was following the posts here on LWJGL status...just can't remember what the latest was Smiley).

Perhaps a FAQ question? Or even an extra section on the main site for "opengl bindings" (or some more descriptive name, perhaps "graphics engine" or something), that would contain:
- latest news on the (currently two) different OGL bindings used
- comparison of the bindings and some generic observations on why you might want to use one rather than the other
- etc

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-06-27 10:53:30 »

I'm very much looking forward to the LWJGL version; I'd really like to do a 3D game one of these days but up until now I really haven't had the resources to do all that tedious gruntwork like model loading and so on.

Cas Smiley

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-06-28 00:45:45 »

The licensing issue is definitely a big one.  Xith3D's license is very liberal and you can understand it without talking to a laywer.  This goes hand in hand with the game focus of the API, as it's nice from a commercial point of view being able to do what you want with the code.

Will.

Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Devvie




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-06-28 00:47:50 »

Quote
I'm very much looking forward to the LWJGL version; I'd really like to do a 3D game one of these days but up until now I really haven't had the resources to do all that tedious gruntwork like model loading and so on.

Cas


jME has supported your API for awhile now.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-06-28 08:40:01 »

Quote


jME has supported your API for awhile now.


jME's biggest problem AFAICS is that it doesn't have a category on JGO Sad. That's a BIG marketing problem (and unfair - but then you would have to ask will they also add Auriga, and all the others that are appearing? Seeing as they can't find the time to assign a moderator to every category, I doubt it)...

Another reason to make jgo an independently controlled and updated site rather than something the GTG do when they have nothing better to be getting on with...? Grin

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-06-28 09:32:25 »

Actually blah is dead right, jME always slips under my radar completely unecessarily... I keep meaning to check it out properly but in all honesty I'm not touching any scenegraph APIs until I see a 100% finished 100% polished game that's fit for sale out of one of them Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-06-29 22:15:54 »

patience is a virtue princec. All things come to those who wait. And ive run out of patient puns, but what im saying is that a good game is going to be out sooner or later. And then, youd be sooo pleased, that you just completely ignore your work and start coding for Jme full time!  Wink

DP


Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline renanse

Junior Devvie




Intelligence is light to a dark world.


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-06-30 14:28:05 »

To counter DP's youthful exuberance  Wink I'd just like to say that you should see some results on the jME side of the fence in the next 2-3 months.  It will be up to the individual to decide if they can determine the full quality of the underlying library by playing a few 1st gen (really pre-1st gen) games, but at least the opportunity to do so will be there.

Renanse  (ruh-NON-say)
Offline Mithrandir

Senior Devvie




Cut from being on the bleeding edge too long


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-06-30 15:06:43 »

Quote
I keep meaning to check it out properly but in all honesty I'm not touching any scenegraph APIs until I see a 100% finished 100% polished game that's fit for sale out of one of them Smiley


So what about those of us with scenegraphs that aren't designed for the gaming community?
Tongue Kiss

The site for 3D Graphics information http://www.j3d.org/
Aviatrix3D JOGL Scenegraph http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/
Programming is essentially a markup language surrounding mathematical formulae and thus, should not be patentable.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-06-30 15:23:22 »

Quote
... but in all honesty I'm not touching any scenegraph APIs until I see a 100% finished 100% polished game that's fit for sale out of one of them Smiley

Cas Smiley

RenderWare is a scene graph API.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-06-30 16:02:55 »

so is NetImmerse, but NetImmerse is priced in the $125,000 so if you can afford it, can you give me a copy?

Renderware is even more dear. GTA3 and Vice City were made in Renderware, Elder Scollers were made in NetImmerse. So princec, will you be touching Renderware/NetImmerse any time soon?

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline aNt

Senior Devvie




AFK


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-06-30 16:27:02 »

Renderware is a nightmare Wink better off with Xith3D i can
tell you. much more cooler.. nicer people too.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-06-30 17:19:41 »

As if I've got that kind of cash lurking in the pockets of my trousers!

I don't mean Renderware etc. anyway - I mean a Java scenegraph library.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mithrandir

Senior Devvie




Cut from being on the bleeding edge too long


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-06-30 19:15:52 »

Ok, then how about we go too far in the other direction and compare with Xj3D. That's a scene graph, though almost everyone uses the VRML/X3D side, not the lowest level stuff. We find Xj3D embedded in all sorts of applications, just nothing is games oriented. There are plenty of shipping products using Xj3D, though mostly you won't find them as they're military in nature and not for consumption by the general public.

The site for 3D Graphics information http://www.j3d.org/
Aviatrix3D JOGL Scenegraph http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/
Programming is essentially a markup language surrounding mathematical formulae and thus, should not be patentable.
Offline aNt

Senior Devvie




AFK


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-06-30 19:26:42 »

ive shiped big stuff using GL4Java.. its what u make dudes
not the SDK Smiley just need to get ones head around it Smiley
Xith3D is top stuff if u ask me...
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-07-01 07:48:01 »

S'rite. I'm going to sit here and see how successful someone can make it. If Xith3D ships an actual production title that compares favourably to what is available to, say, Quake3 based engines, I'll be there.

Cas Smiley

Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-07-01 11:23:59 »

what about jME? would you be there if someone ships something >= Quake 3?

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-07-01 12:31:14 »

Yep. Put it this way: Elias has just spent the best part of a year writing the graphics engine for Tribal Trouble. I imagine he'd be pretty green if I could just plonk a few things into some scenegraph and it actually performed within a few percent of his custom engine after only 2 weeks' work.

In fact to distil this sentiment further: right now I'm stuck doing 2D games because the sheer amount of hassle involved in doing 3D. If you can get the 3D abstraction down to the point that 2D abstraction is at you're sorted.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-07-01 12:48:38 »

Quote
Yep. Put it this way: Elias has just spent the best part of a year writing the graphics engine for Tribal Trouble. I imagine he'd be pretty green if I ...

...right now I'm stuck doing 2D games because the sheer amount of hassle involved in doing 3D...


OK, granted. Now, can I ask you to point out what's wrong with Survivor? Or Martian Madness? (Kev's two quick-hack incomplete Xith games - assuming he won't mind me calling them that Wink). I'm not - by any means - attempting to hold them up as shining examples (neither are complete, and survivor was hacked together from scratch in half the intended time, after the original graphics programmer disappeared). The interesting thing for me about survivor is that it had >> 50 animated MD2 models in a fast-paced game - EVEN paying the penalty of using beanshell for parts of the core game logic (which is a massive trade-off).

There were major problems (nb: could be our ignorance more than Xith, simply because we had no time to do things properly!):

- overly large textures caused MASSIVE ballooning in JVM memory. E.g. putting 16Mb of 1024x1024 textures on the walls and floors added 70Mb+ to the amount of RAM used by the JVM.
- sound system *ahem* sucked; any problems with sounds should just be ignored (super fast last-minute addition!), including performance glitches due to sounds being loaded etc
- Xith's 2D overlay system had a LOT of problems (which I know caused Kev some nightmares) and I've since identified some things that appear to be non-deterministic bugs in Xith's clipping of 2D stuff.
- collision detection breaks when FPS drops below about 15 - we were using a custom simplified system because of problems with Xith's one.

Of course, in it's present guise, Survivor looks very non-3D. But that's a camera-angle problem Smiley and was left as-is as much because we didn't have the time for difficult stuff like tweaking cameras as for any other reason.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-07-01 12:54:24 »

Jme in my opinion has abstracted much of the 3d stuff to an even simpler solution to Java2D, while remaing extremely powerful.

Collision detection in jME:

1  
2  
3  
4  
5  
6  
7  
8  
CollisionResults rs = new CollisionResults();
CollisionDetection.hasCollision(spaceShipNode, WorldNode, rs);

if (rs.getNumber() > 0) {
  for (int i = 0; i < rs.getNumber(); i++) {
    System.out.println("Collision Occured between spacehip and " + rs.getNode(i).toString() );
 }
}


and thats it.

Compare that with Java2D?

1  
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if (spaceShip.intersects(enemy1) {
  //do something
}else if (spaceship.intersects(enemy2) {
  //do something else
}else if (spaceship.intersects(enemyBullet) {
  // do something rather odd and get out of my face
}


I do realise that the Java2D alternative is more specific than Jme, but then you can have different nodes depending on the alien. e.g. Aliens who come from the sun are rather stupid, so you put em into their own node and check collision with that. Aliens who come from earth are smarter ( Tongue ), so you put em into a different node.

I know there are loads more ways of collision detection in Java2D, but none of them (that I have seen) come anywhere close to the simplicity of Jme.

DP

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-07-01 13:13:11 »

If you want to know how good Xith3D or JMe have to be - go and download Blitz3D and write a 3D game right now. That's how easy it is. Try it. Be in awe. Understand why and how it works.

Cas Smiley

Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-07-01 13:35:42 »

I have seen Blitz3D, and to be frank,  im not overly impressed. Its not extendable, its not portable, and its not Java Smiley

DP

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-07-01 14:39:42 »

You programmer types are always arguing about the minutae of grammatical correctness and OOP style instead of actually writing any games Smiley Seriously, try Blitz. If there's one thing it will do it's let you write quality games, fast. It doesn't need to be extensible (though, of course, it actually is...), nor does it need to be OOP (except that the new one's out new and it's got some OOP in it).

Think about it from the perspective of someone who wants to see results, on time and under budget.

Cas Smiley

Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-07-01 14:46:41 »

But is Blitz3D a scenegraph?

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 425
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-07-01 15:21:26 »

Yes.

Cas Smiley

Offline Bombadil

Senior Devvie





« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-07-01 16:54:07 »

Quote
so is NetImmerse, but NetImmerse is priced in the $125,000

Netimmerse/Gamebroy is much cheaper, it's just $50,000 per platform-title (plus $25.000 per support-year if you need it).
lol
(The lol meaning the "much" and "just" words, not the engine itself, which looks impressive.)
Offline darkprophet

Senior Devvie




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-07-01 17:03:12 »

oh right, ive seen the site before, it does look impressive. jME is very similar to it  Shocked

A bird told me that Renderware has begun to show its age as its been programmed in C. But heck, it still sells for alot of money!

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

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