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Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Posted 2004-06-22 06:11:30 »

Hi All,
What do you all think of having a section devoted to links to usefull information wrt Java gaming?
This section would also include links to companies or other 3rd parties involved in the java gaming biz. Additions could be replies to main topics and once verified the [Sticky] list topic would include the resource.

a typical example of a usefull document would be
The Games Industry Is Not Playing Around

and a typical site list could include the likes of
www.superscape.com
www.sumea.com
www.blam.com
etc etc.

Regards
G D'Arc

oops Fathammer not java related ;-)
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-06-22 06:45:11 »

Hm ... kind of exists in the form of the 'WIKI' link on top of this page!

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-06-22 06:51:10 »

Doh!
Thanks Mate

* Mind you: Tumble weeds. *
OK updated the links section... anyone else ? Tongue

Developer Resources Links on JavaGaming Wiki, not to be confused with Libraries of any descripition Smiley
Har Har
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-06-22 08:27:33 »

Humble adjustment to original suggestion: remove word "Wiki" and actually describe the kinds of things behind the link... when I'm looking for libraries I usually look for a link that says "Libraries" not "Wiki".

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-06-22 09:10:27 »

Quote

and a typical site list could include the likes of
www.superscape.com
www.sumea.com
www.blam.com


Please could you explain what the point is of listing these? At the moment, it just seems to be a bit of random free advertising for a handful of sites. They certainly don't seem to be any kind of "java game developer resources" Huh

Unless you can come up with a good reason, I'm going to remove them. There are literally hundreds (if not thousands - I personally only know of > 100) java mobile gaming companies, and I don't see that it's fair just to pick a random 2 or 3 of them.

The other items on the page seem sensible enough, although most look like they ought to have their own page. At the moment, it's an abuse of the Wiki to just cram them all onto a single page (might as well have the entire site as just one page).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-06-22 09:15:03 »

Ditto the applets on that page - WTF are they doing there?

IMHO the "public domain art" is so important it ought to be promoted to it's own page and then we can all bookmark it!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-06-22 11:25:27 »

Cas: That will teach me to post BC (Before coffee). whaddya mean didnt get you.

Blah: I actually didnt want to post in the wiki in the first place Tongue.. To explain:
It would be nice to have a single point of reference as to the comercially viable games companies making use of Java in the industry and with technology of interest to developers.

Please take your time to check out the links;
Superscape have Swerve studio

Sumea have been touting the Sumea Engine for a while (Check Goodies section)

Zona have an MMOG  solution that makes use of java server side.

Which leaves Blam (Polished game some will find inspiring)

The applets section already existed I just thought it rude not to add something Smiley

Anywho,
That will teach me to contribute next time  Grin
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-06-22 11:51:47 »

I just meant that the link at the top of the page that says WIKI isn't really all that intuitive or useful to someone looking for "Games libraries".

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-06-22 13:02:49 »

Quote

Blah: I actually didnt want to post in the wiki in the first place Tongue..


Doh. Yeah, that makes it make a bit more sense...

Quote

To explain:
It would be nice to have a single point of reference as to the comercially viable games companies making use of Java in the industry and with technology of interest to developers.


OK, I see where you're going, sort of.

I think my earlier point about needing to do lots and lots or none at all still stands. But...it's an awful lot of work. I think it also deserves a lot more than just a Wiki page (and it probably is too much detail for just one page anyway).

If I set up the back-end stuff, would you consider working together to gather lots of data and put it all on JGF? The main advantages are that:
- it's already a developer resource (mainly the tech section, which has stuff like the only known Hardware Compatibility List for JInput Wink)
- we can use the auto-interlinking back-end to have each company's products automtically have a collection of thumbnail screenshots linking to the games that use those products.

The only other idea I've got on this is that there's a big difference between "products" and "game companies", and it would probably be more effective to split these - you get different types of people surfing for one or the other. Along those lines, JGF already has a page listing java gaming technologies, which we'd love to have more products on (just waiting for individuals to gather the data and email it to me, or for the companies themselves to send me their details).

The other half - showcasing all the companies that are doing inspiring things with Java - is part of the raison d'etre for JGF, but companies and groups have been uninterested in being listed, and no-one has yet stepped forward to compile info themselves. Again, we've got back-end XML setup on JGF already for this (again with the interlinking) but little data. There was someone else on the sun java gaming forum (not this one, but the tiny one on sun.com/java.net) looking to collate this info, so perhaps we could get them to join in as well?

Quote

Which leaves Blam (Polished game some will find inspiring)


...should be on JGF, since it's free Smiley.

Quote

The applets section already existed I just thought it rude not to add something Smiley


Yeah, I commented on that just because it's the first time I'd seen them on that page, and I think they're just as out of place. They should go on JGF in the games section Grin rather than as "developer resources".

Quote

That will teach me to contribute next time  Grin


Yup. We don't like *creative* people around here. Ideas are bad.

Seriously, though, I was being critical of the fact that applets + your stuff had moved onto the page, rather than of you and your ideas about actually collating the info. I'm sorry if it seemed the other way around.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-06-22 17:27:20 »

Quote
If I set up the back-end stuff, would you consider working together to gather lots of data and put it all on JGF?
Reasn I axed 4 all of us to share linx was cuz im 2 la-z 2 find them all myslf.  Seriously though I think that a community approach would be better especially as I have a weird sense of loyalty to the Folks here For championing the cause for so long Smiley (Oh the early days of Cazs terrain demo and ChrisMs Space Ghost Avatar).  Although it could be an addiction to this forum as I get twitchy if I dont visit for a while.
Quote
Yup. We don't like *creative* people around here. Ideas are bad.
Shame I had a killer idea for your Survivor game, nevermind hey Tongue
Quote
Seriously, though, I was being critical...

No need to be sorry, your bipolar personality is fascinating  Grin

God Bless
Guile dArc
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-06-22 17:55:09 »

Quote

Seriously though I think that a community approach would be better especially as I have a weird sense of loyalty to the Folks here For championing the cause for so long Smiley


What do you think JGF is? Obviously there's something wrong with the site if you think it's not a "community approach". Which part is confusing? The fact that it's non-commercial? That all work is done by volunteers? That participation is free? That volunteers provide resources that no-one else has stepped forwards to provide (like the aforementioned JInput HCL...and we'd  love to do the same for more techs, we're only lacking people to kickstart them...)?

Or is it that I'm "in charge" and reserve the right to remove or reject anything on the grounds of quality or relevance?


The JGF approach is that people volunteer (or are co-erced by one of those already doing stuff for JGF) and then someone (mostly me at the moment) finds experts in each area to help, comment, or just advise.

Random unmaintained links pages where people just dump their bookmarks are - in the long term - worthless. These things have to be maintained and looked after and pruned and checked and have QA on them in order to be and to remain useful. For instance, if you were going to list Zona as the only MMOG server (entirely discounting the grexengine, which I'm obviously biased towards), it is a very bad example of what's available in java MMOG servers. It's not the market leader, they don't have the most money, they don't have unique technology, they don't have a released game, ... but how do you know all that? You need to have people checking these things and putting in the effort to find out this stuff. And you need people filtering the submissions so that you don't - as I've described before - end up with a page of 100 identikit tetris clones.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-06-23 13:36:55 »

[Rant Alert]
No idea why every post seems to turn into a battle, I shall make the effort one last time...
If anything you have just proved the point that a free unbiased and "open to all" forum is the best place to discuss links.  Otherwise how could you have expanded on the strengths or weaknesses of two MMOG technologies (Zona & Grex)?

As to the link to Zona;  I understand that Grex is your baby, excuse me for thinking you might be interested in what other companies are doing with Java rather than pandering to your ego.  If you recall the whole purpose of sharing links in the first place was to capture the state of Java in the games industry.  Although I could send you a link to your own website or the feature on Javagaming if it makes you happy. Grin

This is me in a nutshell:
Gaming should be fun - When i'm on JavaGaming or in front of my desktop I should be having fun.
I did not sign up for www.ForumJousting.com or www.YouShallConformToMyNarrowDefinitionOfAcceptableJavaGaming.org [no dont bother] In view of this I simply chose to play in a bigger sandbox (if you will pardon the pun).

Though not in sequence and gleaned from recent replies this should sound familiar and should not be misconstrued as a personal attack.

**Parental Advisory::not to be taken out of context.**
Quote
God, but I *hate* applet games.
Quote
And you need people filtering the submissions
Quote
Or is it that I'm "in charge" and reserve the right to remove or reject anything?
Quote
entirely discounting the grexengine, which I'm obviously biased towards
Quote
Unless you can come up with a good reason, I'm going to remove them.

A forum and community should be a free exchange of ideas in my opinion, whether the views are in  concert or diametrically opposed to ones own *Not Filtered*. This one also includes the Freedom to have you set fire to any of my posts, remove links from the Wiki (or even better) add your own.  This way extreme ideas can be tempered for the common good.
You have openly admitted to being biased, hating applets and seem to think every post is a personal attack against you or Grex.  This topic could have resulted in a one click reference to anyone who doubted the adoption of Java as a serious gaming proposition.
[/Rant Alert]


God bless
Guile D'Arc
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 153
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-06-23 14:09:23 »

<ThreadJack>
A perfect example of why we need this Grin :

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=announcements;action=display;num=1086786958;start=15#24
</ThreadJack>

Kev

Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-06-23 14:51:29 »

UberMod HuhGrin

Kev: No need this topic will self distruct after Blah has read it.

Guile
Nearly Banned -j0k3  Tongue
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-06-23 18:24:17 »

Quote
[Rant Alert]
If anything you have just proved the point that a free unbiased and "open to all" forum is the best place to discuss links.


Which is why, instead of touching the page, I came back here to ask you about it, and to try to understand.

Quote

Otherwise how could you have expanded on the strengths or weaknesses of two MMOG technologies (Zona & Grex)?


I didn't; I'm not posting here to advertise my company, and so I deliberately steered clear of doing that.

Nor did I mention the three companies that - IMO as a specialist in this area - all have a lot more relevance than Zona, and are all using Java.

My point was that you need a lot of intelligence and diligence, and research and peer-review, behind any useful collection of things that people are likely to be biased about (and any company with a single halfway decent salesman can be assumed to be as biased as possible, so commercial links nearly always fall into this category).

Quote

As to the link to Zona;  I understand that Grex is your baby, excuse me for thinking you might be interested in what other companies are doing with Java rather than pandering to your ego.  If you recall the whole purpose of sharing links in the first place was to capture the state of Java in the games industry.  Although I could send you a link to your own website or the feature on Javagaming if it makes you happy. Grin


There's some misunderstanding here; I didn't request anything of the sort. I don't understand what my ego has to do with this (although, granted, it is rather huge Tongue, as befits someone with a brain the size of a planet). My only interests here were:

- I don't like to see a useful page of resources turn into an advertising page for random games and one or two companies, especially if those things could *just as easily* have pages of their own. This is pollution of the original page, IMHO.

- Gathering links for companies is not a case of "oh, I'll just put one or two up there". It's either a major undertaking or it's simply not going to work. I'm sorry if you feel this is my ego talking, but I have direct experience of this stuff and would happily bet money that a page where someone posts just Zona as an MMOG system is *never* going to grow into something useful. Mainly because surfers are not stupid, and they recognize that a page with no effort gone into it is of little value to them, especially when - if they want that info - it's easier to get more of it elsewhere in more obvious places (like, say, any of the sites that appear on a google search for MMOG).

- OTOH, someone putting in the time to collate, evaluate, and sort a large collection of companies and products is an extremely valuable resource for everyone else. And I would do everything I could to help and encourage this.

- unregulated things - like the Wiki page - tend to become less and less valuable over time. I have participated in many wikis, and every time I've taken a back seat (usually in deference to the creators) I've regretted it when the wiki has just filled up with crap over time. The only exceptions are where the wiki creators/owners/users are themselves very proactive in pruning and maintaining it. I don't like wikis, in general, because they're usually used in places where they are inappropriate. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to just ignore the JGO one and let it rot.

Quote

Though not in sequence and gleaned from recent replies this should sound familiar and should not be misconstrued as a personal attack.


OK, I won't take it that way. But I admit I can't think why else you'd do this?

Quote

A forum and community should be a free exchange of ideas in my opinion, whether the views are in  concert or diametrically opposed to ones own *Not Filtered*. This one also includes the Freedom to have you set fire to any of my posts, remove links from the Wiki (or even better) add your own.  This way extreme ideas can be tempered for the common good.
You have openly admitted to being biased, hating applets and seem to think every post is a personal attack against you or Grex.


Maybe I'm not biased - I take the path of assuming I am in cases where the probability is that I am irrespective of my best efforts not to be; I'm just trying to be fair and up-front with things.

The comment about applets was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but  I don't see a problem with it anyway. You ask for a forum to be a free exchange of ideas, but don't allow ideas that you don't like?

And I'm afraid I can't see the quote that says I think every post is a personal attack Huh But I guess that was just the bile speaking Grin

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-06-23 18:28:59 »

Sigh. I think I understand the confusion here. I just re-read the following sentence, and realised it can be read in two completely different meanings, depending upon tone:

Quote

For instance, if you were going to list Zona as the only MMOG server (entirely discounting the grexengine, which I'm obviously biased towards), it is a very bad example of what's available in java MMOG servers.


I see now that it could read as "if you were to discount the grexengine" (implication: why? you shouldn't do that!).

It was meant as "*I* am going to ignore the grexengine in this sentence" (implication: even if the grexengine didn't exist, so my personal bias wouldn't enter into it, it's still true to say that Zona is not that good compared to the other competition).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-06-23 19:35:47 »

Lost in translation Tongue
Fair enough, apologies if I misunderstood.
Ill buy you a beer if I see you at ECTS

Bi-Polarity must be catchy.


OK post can now be De-Rezed

Guile
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 153
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-06-24 03:57:41 »

As a side note, when/where is ECTS and can I get a ticket?

Kev

Offline Flynn

Senior Newbie




Mutant VM Alert!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-06-24 06:37:00 »

ECTS 2004
Earls Court London

I shall start a new thread with details ....

PS I may clean up this thread the community way
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