Contest ?

[Chman]

What do you think about starting contest like 4k contest or 64k for java (and, for example, lwjgl) on this website ?
I think it would be a good idear...

Any comments ?

++
Chman

[ap_kelly]

I agree, a contest would show off what the current state of play is regarding java gaming. Obviously the contest should have a few (see < 5) sections, perhaps :-

1) 2d
2) 3d
3) 100k Demo (not including libraries - such as lwjgl, gl4java)

Source code should be submitted to this site as a learning aid.

Regards,

Andy.

[shawnkendall]

If you can have the contest judged by the weekend before GDC, I'll gladly announce and/or demo the games at our Java games tutorial there.

Time to make some rules quick! ;-)

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Chman]

Moderators should take a look at this topic and should give their comments about this idear...

[princec]

How about:

1. Categories for applet and full application, 2D hardware only or 3D hardware required, to give a total of 4 categories
2. 5Mb application limit, including libraries*; 1Mb applet limit, including libraries*
3. Must run on Linux x86, and NT4/Win98 onwards
4. Machine specs to be agreed upon: how about 800MHz/Geforce/128Mb?
5. JDK1.4.1_01 allowed
6. No "demos", there's got to be an actual game
7. Cas can enter XAP (Not fair I know)

* Java3D just this once will be excused from being bloatware and be allowed in for free.

Cas

[Chman]

I'm not totally agree with you, Cas :

1. Ok, seems to be good (4 categories, good)
2. A contest mustn't be so big... I think the bigest size limit would be 512k, not more.
3. Ok
4. Ok
5. Ok
6. No no no... It depends of the subject ! If the subject is (for example) "make a game with a size limit of 64k" you will make a game, but if the subject is "make an impressive 3d application without using any textures with a size limit of 64k", you wont make a game, but a demo.
7.  

++
Chman

[princec]

6. Well, if we were holding a contest @ JavaDemos.org then that'd be the case but I'd rather be able to play than just watch or we're back to watching movies of the infamous F1 racing game again

7. Bah, XAP's too big to enter in the contest then Maybe it'll be at GDC anyway

Cas

[erikd]

6. No no no... It depends of the subject ! If the subject is (for example) "make a game with a size limit of 64k" you will make a game, but if the subject is "make an impressive 3d application without using any textures with a size limit of 64k", you wont make a game, but a demo.

Nah, I think it should be purely a game programming contest, not a demo contest.

4. Machine specs to be agreed upon: how about 800MHz/Geforce/128Mb

It think GeForce is way too specific. If you use a GL wrapper, a GL supporting 3d card is fair but not one specific type of one specific brand.

7. Cas can enter XAP

Hmmm... I give up  
I think it should be a new development in a fixed amount of time.

2. A contest mustn't be so big... I think the bigest size limit would be 512k, not more.

Lemme guess: XAP = 4.99Mb?  
But seriously, I don't think 5Mb is that big (even though I'm on dial-up).

[Chman]

Why only games ? "Making a demo" is "making a realtime special effect"...

For the machine specs, it depends of the contest... Some contests will be very limited in CPU usage...

And once again, size depends of the contest...  

So when do we start a contest ?

++
Chman

[erikd]

Why only games ?

Well, this is javagaming.org, isn't it?

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Chman]

yeah, but special effect (= demo) are parts of game developement, no ?

[ChrisM]

I have to agree that the contest should be a game and not a demo, even if it is not *complete*, the entry should have some game play to it.

As for prizes......I'll see what I can dig up

I also think that the games should not be specific to an OS or graphics card.  Let's see who can do the best cross platform game.

Lastly, who picks the winners?  A panel of judges selected be ME perhaps........mmuuhuUHUUAUaAUAHAHAHAHA!

MOLTAR!  STOP THAT!

We'll figure out who should judge.

-SG

[Orangy Tang]

Sounds like a good idea, so how about some rules? Catergories? Themes? Or even a vauge time-frame?

I think some kind of flexible theme might be a good idea, one with plenty of room for interpretation.



Bah, who am i kidding, i'd end up joining in regardless of the actual rules...

[oNyx]

4k is really challenging

it's amazing what u can do with 4k... and how much space u can save here and there.

atm i have 2500bytes... (1596 left). well i have everything set up... running in fullscreen... physics are there... 10 sprites...

i hope the logic wont bloat it up too much :x

hehe just found out, that i forgot summin... that saved 48 bytes (1644 bytes left yea! )

after it's done i'll remake it in 64k... with better graphics, some special fx, sounds etc

well ok... i suggest summin like this:
1) 4k, 64k and 256k

4k=4096 bytes
64k=65536 bytes
256k=262144 bytes

2) to main categories. pure and with external libraries (eg: lwjgl).

that means: 6 categories alltogether.

i agree that there shouldnt be too much categories. well... 4k is *really* small and the game cant be really complex therefore it doesnt take that long to make a nice entry. in addition... i think 4k is a good starting point, cuz u learn quickly alot bout filesize optimisation.

3) the game itself and it's media has to be smaller or equal to the given bytesize.

4) obfuscating and jars are allowed (eg: jax->jarg->7-zip)

5) java assembler is allowed (eg: jasmin)

6) the game has to work without parameters (commandline/applet params). it's ok if there are some optional switches but it has to work without em too. the jar-ed game has to work after renaming (it's not allowed to store data in the name of the jar file).

7) it has to be a real game. that means there must be a goal and there has to be an end.

*all* file extensions should be lowercase.

9) the game will be released as zip, wich contains:
a) the game including all it's media
b) a small html file (applets only)
c) the complete source (cuz it's about learning )
d) a txt file with some information:
-author
-game name
-genre
-with or without additional libraries
-4k, 64k or 256k
-used size
-squish process
-personal comment

that could look like this:
-------------------------------------------------
author: oNyx
game: dropzone
genre: actually i dont know
libs: none
limit: 4k
used: 4089 bytes
squished with: jarg 0.9.13 only (it was bigger with 7-zip in this case)
comment: it's an remake of the c16 game "dingbat" (aka "jet man"). 64k version follows
-------------------------------------------------

something to disagree about?

[markuskidd]

File size limits that low (especially 4k) are going to result in source code that is not very intelligible. I think one of the biggest benefits to such a contest will be to open up game development techniques to people who don't yet have a thorogh understanding of Java's game development potential. Demonstrating how to reduce file size is probably a lot less of a priority than how to get started with Java gaming in the first place.

[Chman]

Great oNyx !  
Happy to see that someone has got the same point of view as me...

++
Chman

[princec]

Might I suggest the sizes be something more realistic like 40k, 400k, and 4Mb? Or the quality of the results will be, quite frankly, atrocious. And as far as the use of assembly is concerned - if you're trying to show off Java's strengths then you really want to show how simple the code is, not how much of a smartarse you are

Cas

[bloid]

We could do what we did over on cfxweb with the 4k contest:

Release 2 lots of source, the un-obfuscated source, and the obfuscated source (with obfuscation technique), I think CFXweb also specified which obfuscator you had to use...

I'll be watching tho, to see what rules are decided on :-)  Hope I get time to write something

[erikd]

7) it has to be a real game. that means there must be a goal and there has to be an end.

Huh? 'an end' being 'game over' I suppose?    
But really, lots of games don't have an end until the game is over. Most of the classics from before '85 don't(pacman, space invaders, galaxian etc).
I intend not my game not to have an end because when you reach it, you'll probably never play it again (given that the game was actually fun to play of course).

[oNyx]

File size limits that low (especially 4k) are going to result in source code that is not very intelligible.

well there will be some very simple entries too. just a loop... a handfull of logic and a bit drawing.

thats perfect for a beginner isnt it?

writing a game as minimalistic as possible is imo the best way to start game coding.

my first "game" was such a minimalistic thingy too... i wrote it '97 with turboC. i had a "paddle" on the bottom of the screen, wich could be toggled between left and right (with space). a "ball" dropped either left or right and u had to decide quickly if u want to change your position or not.

there were levels (it got faster all 10 bounces), there was a score (score+=10*level ), u had 3 lives... and there was even awful (speaker) sound.

never the less... i was god damn proud

the thing i want to point out... if u r quite new to the language and c some of these minimalistic 4k games u might feel the urge to do it better. in addition... u dont need that much motivation to make a small and simple game.

I think one of the biggest benefits to such a contest will be to open up game development techniques to people who don't yet have a thorogh understanding of Java's game development potential.

feel free to make a well commented, simple, perfect for beginners and absolutly clean coded 4k entry (tutorial alike)

btw it might be a good idea to judge the source too. this way ppl will have a clue how usefull takin a look at the source might be.

maybe something like...

game:
-technical aspect (smooft/fast enough, fx, graphics,...)
-fun
-overall ranking (it might be interesting to compare the games from all categories - a good game doesnt have to be big)

source:
-readability (eg: style, common convention)
-comments (if there are any are they usefull?)
-how clean (error handling/closing streams/exit properbly etc)

Demonstrating how to reduce file size is probably a lot less of a priority than how to get started with Java gaming in the first place.

hey... it doesnt have to be reducing to the death

sensefull using the space will usually do the trick. eg if u put all sprites into one big image and slice it up ingame, u'll save a lot of space (especially if u have a lot of tiny images - eg tiles).

btw reducing file size is quite interesting if u r thinkin about writing games for cellular phones.

[oNyx]

Huh? 'an end' being 'game over' I suppose?    
[...]

yea... game over... :]

i meant... there should be a goal... a way to reach it... and a way to fail... "game over" yes.

[oNyx]

Might I suggest the sizes be something more realistic like 40k, 400k, and 4Mb? Or the quality of the results will be, quite frankly, atrocious.

u can do a lot with 4k

tetris, space invaders, a lil racing game (abuse's entry was really impressive -> http://www.pkl.net/~rsc/4KApplet/4KApplet.html )

here is a lil list (some of em are down):
http://www.saber-x.com/midgarddesign/4k.html

hmm... i'm wondering if a minigolf game is possible with 4k

and u can do even more with 64k... 3-6 samples, tons of sprites, some tiles, particle fx, improved ai (the 4k racing game by abuse has ai), a nice menu, options... etc.

And as far as the use of assembly is [...]

well... it's just my suggestion for a rule set.

i didnt say that assembly is the way to go... i just think that it should be allowed (cuz there might be some ppl who like to write programms in java assembly).

[swpalmer]

I don't like the 4k idea.  It is good as a challenge to see what you can do in 4k.  But it is NOT good as a demonstration of what you can do with Java to make a decent game.

I think the motivation must be to come up with some really nice games done with Java.   Some thing that will further the cause of Java gaming.

From that aspect, I think it is best if the categories were not based on size limits at all.. more like team size (one guy coding in Java for N weeks...  or  a team of X coders with Y artists did these...  perhaps a pro  and an amatuer level?

Size restrictions if they are used though, should be set so as to not limit the quality of graphics and sound.

[Chman]

There should be 2 contests types :
- very small applications (4k, 64k...)
- big application (500k, 5Mo)
So everyone will be happy...

++
Chman

[rgeimer]

I'll second that. Having a small app category makes it possible for those with limited time budgets to compete. My vote is for a 64k limit for the small games.

[Chman]

yeah, 64k seems good for a java game (for small app category)... and 1Mo should be enough for bigger games.

[cfmdobbie]

Maybe what you need is ONE contest, but a NUMBER of awards?

Most addictive/fun game.
Most impressive work in under 64KB.
Most audially/visually stunning.
Best "pure Java" of less than XXXKB.
Most technically impressive.
etc.

[Chman]

Maybe what you need is ONE contest, but a NUMBER of awards?
 
Most addictive/fun game.
Most impressive work in under 64KB.
Most audially/visually stunning.
Best "pure Java" of less than XXXKB.
Most technically impressive.
etc.

Good idear !  

[erikd]

I second that  

It's beginning to sound like the academy awards  

[Chman]

And the winner is...  
TADADADADADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA