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  Open sourcing Java and its effect in games  (Read 13191 times)
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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #90 - Posted 2004-06-21 00:41:30 »

Quote

Another word to blah^3 - Loading buttloads of data into a UI is just plain dumb. You can't expect to load a millions rows into a table or combo box, and see it perform beautifully. You do like us, and write a custom model that pages in data as it needs it - fast and beautiful.

God bless,
-Toby Reyelts


I humbly disagree. The toolkit should be better archictected and should pull in data lazily for giant datasets.

Anyway, I've never driven huge datasets through swing like this except to see what happened - I just noticed that Sun had added hacks to make it easier (there was a javaone talk on it at one point too IIRC?).

I have driven *large* datasets where intelligent clip-mgmt and region-caching on the part of JScrollPane should have been more than enough to make excellent performance. Unfortunately, Swing's architecture doesn't really do paint-caching, does it? IT doesn't prevent it, per se (you can override update methods etc), but it doesn't support it within the fundamental concepts either. Just wondering aloud at 2am, but ... I wonder how much faster swing would seem if it did it's own caching?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #91 - Posted 2004-06-21 07:46:50 »

Quote

I humbly disagree. The toolkit should be better archictected and should pull in data lazily for giant datasets.


It does. If you use your own model, tookit lazily asks you only about the data which is currently visible on screen. What else could be done ? Caching ? IMHO, it is not possible to do it in universal way, too many heuristics would have to be applied - it is quite easy to bolt your own cache tailored to particular usage on top of your model.

Quote

I have driven *large* datasets where intelligent clip-mgmt and region-caching on the part of JScrollPane should have been more than enough to make excellent performance. Unfortunately, Swing's architecture doesn't really do paint-caching, does it?


It does Smiley I wrote an application which was displaying EEG dataset (almost 1GB of data) in single big component inside JScrollPane (with custom written graph component). Model was directly wired to memmapped file. JScrollPane was doing the caching in best possible way - under windows, if no other window is covering the component, it uses blit to copy data, in other case it uses temporary image buffer. It is possible to set this property to JScrollPane to turn it off completly (if you for example, do your own caching - displaying image or such). When I was moving dataset by umpteen pixels, repaints where instant (<10ms). If I moved the scrollbar like crazy, repaints went down to 100-150ms (after all, it was 40k+ antialiased samples on screen at once, with some filtering applied).

Of course, to take advantage of it, your component has to be non-transparent and repaint only part which are requested by clip region.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #92 - Posted 2004-06-21 10:35:27 »

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant that the Swing architecture makes it incredibly easy for the developer to accidentally prevent paint caching from working Smiley.

If you follow Sun's own tutorials, it's unlikely any of your code will work with paint caching (because they do not make you check clip bounds all the time). To me this is like the fact that it is possible to write OO code in C - it's possible, but it's not "supported" because the language doesn't really care either way whether you do or not, and doesn't help you to do it / enforce it. A similar problem occurs the first time a developer tries to add a simple "print" function: they have to rewrite every single component to do clipbounds handling and implement a scheme to divide up their components into pages, and re-create a fresh clip for each page. The low-level tools are there, but it's not like M/V/C which is *forced* upon you in many Swing widgets...

As for the lazy model stuff, IME it doesn't always work because the models themselves were wrongly designed by Sun and you have to do tonnes of work (especially in trees Sad with that evil horrific TreePath class...) to make things come out reasonably. Again, it's by no means impossible, but IMHO it's a lot harder than it should be...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #93 - Posted 2004-06-21 10:37:32 »

Quote

Of course, to take advantage of it, your component has to be non-transparent and repaint only part which are requested by clip region.


Yes, exactly. And IME the vast majority of developers never look at the clip region at all (for a start, it's a waste of development time the way Swing is currently architected) until the day their GUI has to handle large data sets or complex redraws (e.g. arbitrarily-many-layered graphs, or dynamic DB-fetched data - anything where overdraw becomes a major concern).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #94 - Posted 2004-06-21 12:45:52 »

I think JEdit is the third worst editor I've ever used. It was beaten into second place by Notepad, and of course had no chance to compete with vi at #1. <start religious flamewar here>

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #95 - Posted 2004-06-21 12:50:07 »

<OT> Cas must be bored </OT>

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #96 - Posted 2004-06-21 12:58:48 »

Quote

Yes, exactly. And IME the vast majority of developers never look at the clip region at all


How many Swing developers out there create their own components after all ? It is not-so-easy work to do it really correctly - and for most programs, not really needed given available components (Swing or third party).

As for the tree interfaces... been there, done that, it took about 2 pages of code to bolt tree aspect on my data structures, with half of method not implemented, other half  being one-line conversions to correct format. Drag&Drop was a lot harder, I ended up copying and modifying most of Swing TransferHandler implementation.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #97 - Posted 2004-06-21 13:32:00 »

Editor flamewar, hehe... IMHO the Norewegian StrongED for RISC OS Archimedes computers has been the very best editor ever. It's been mighty and still comfortable and of course one of the fastest ones on earth - being developed in hand coded ARM assembler. On my 200 MHz StrongARM RiscPC it still gives a good run to Ultraedit or JEdit on a 2000 MHz PC... ;-)

Back to topic: Opensourcing Java. Nothing new on this topic I guess.
Yesterday the French government anounced they're going to move one million state PCs to OpenSource. Negotiation with MandrakeSoft und Mozilla Europe are underway.
The 14 000 city PCs of Munich are going OpenSource, too I mentioned. And so on.
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #98 - Posted 2004-06-21 21:05:42 »

Quote
Back to topic: Opensourcing Java. Nothing new on this topic I guess.


The latest articles imply that Sun won't opensource Java soon.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline TheBohemian

Junior Member




Java will rule them all!


« Reply #99 - Posted 2004-06-22 21:40:12 »

people who are interested in open-source/Free java may not rely on Sun's daily dose of confusion about the topic. the *real* (real := progress + coding) stuff goes on at the classpath project*:
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/classpath.html

it has a blog area called planet classpath:
http://classpath.wildebeest.org/planet/
(with the article that caused the latest thread hijacking here ...!)

btw:
people disliking open-source/Free software projects sometimes have doubts in the project programmer's skills - anyone had a look at classpath's team? IBM & redhat among others - interesting combination Smiley

*and the various free JVM projects of course

---

just found a small presentation about classpath and its future:
http://www.klomp.org/mark/classpath/RH/GNUClasspathRH.html
(may 2004)

cya

TheBohemian

---------------------------------------
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #100 - Posted 2004-06-23 09:16:43 »

I'm very happy that classpath exists, even though I'll probably never use it for work. But I might end up using an embedded VM if they write one (and it's fast enough) so I can ship Alien Flux free of license wrinkles.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #101 - Posted 2004-06-23 16:19:24 »

Classpath doesn't write VMs. They write the libraries for most (all?) of the free VMs out there. If(!) gcj works for Alien Flux, you could compile it to native code and ship it without license problems.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #102 - Posted 2004-06-23 16:26:40 »

I already have Jet for that, and as it's cheap for what it does, it's not worth trying gcj for just the same problems + more weirdass opensourceness.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #103 - Posted 2004-06-24 07:29:08 »

But Jet doesn't seem to solve your license problems and I thought this is what you are talking about.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #104 - Posted 2004-06-24 09:30:28 »

Jet solves my license problems just fine. Actually the real problem I have is size, and fixing the size problem results in the license problem.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #105 - Posted 2004-06-24 13:25:58 »

Does Jet allow you to legally distribute Alien Flux as EXE without shipping the JRE along with it?

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #106 - Posted 2004-06-24 14:50:40 »

Yes. There is no JRE included in the Jet compiled version of Alien Flux, it's a single, standalone executable file.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #107 - Posted 2004-06-24 16:22:04 »

If this is legal, what is your license problem?

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #108 - Posted 2004-06-24 19:20:17 »

I don't really want to have to use Jet, it's very awkward and just another thing to add to the long list of headaches induced when doing a release. (Well, it was awkward when I bought it, but it has probably improved).

Cas Smiley

Offline Thinking

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #109 - Posted 2004-08-09 22:38:27 »

Quote


Pfft.  Assuming you're talking more than 10 years off, Java as a language will be long gone before then, and we'll all be using something more powerful, more developer-friendly, and much more appropriate to the tasks of the day.  I think the best you could hope for is that VM technology is still in there somewhere, and that Sun are still a big player in the language world. ;D


Languages tend to stick around. Look at fortran, IMHO one of the main reasons it's still around is because the huge amount of scientific libraries. Now take a look at java, it's grown so much in the past years, thousands of classes, and and a lot of packages. It seems that a lot of people are moving to .NET for its huge libraries, and it costs a lot to get into, and it's the same with fortran, java is completely free, if you want a cool IDE like .net has, than IBM has created one for free. I'm not trying to start a flame about 'java VS .NET', theres already a thread about that. What I'm saying is that java is something that's easy to get into, along with a huge amount of classes, it will be a while before some company invests as much money and time into a language as sun and IBM has. If some how a company does manage to spend the time and money, it will look like choped liver for a while before it starts looking like java...

As for open sourceing of java, it might help in certain ways, some of which are languages like groovy and jython which run on java, designers of those languages might like to ship their less buggy version of java with their SDK? Are there any problems with doing this?
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