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  Submitting the game  (Read 8655 times)
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Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Posted 2004-05-21 20:32:58 »

Some questions regarding game sumission which I haven't seen asked elsewhere.

First, is it sufficient to submit a URL to a download page for the installers?  This is easier for me because I have Win/Mac installers and they are large (10-30m).

Second, my games require activation numbers because they are available for sale.  If I post 5 numbers for the judges in my contest folder, are the judges the only other persons who have access to it?  I trying to avoid having these numbers being posted all over the internet.

Thanks.
-Doug Donohoe (jddonohoe entry)
Offline Herkules

Senior Devvie




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-05-22 07:44:38 »

I think those folders are readable by the public Smiley

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-05-22 11:18:10 »

Okay, lets test this.  You appear to be a member of the games contest project.  Can you tell me what is in my folder (jddonohoe)?  I have looked in a bunch of folders and have not seen any other submissions.

Would still like to get an answer from Sun on this.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline BugBear

Senior Newbie




Ground FX Racing


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-05-22 14:04:50 »

err, I can see everything in there....

poker and war-aoi, with files in them (a single text file for each game, which opens just fine).
Offline BugBear

Senior Newbie




Ground FX Racing


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-05-22 14:13:49 »

um, Gak!!!! I was able to modify one of your files...I put an extra exclamation mark at the end of it (sorry about that, didn't really think it would work...I did put it back the way it was).  This really needs to be fixed.
Offline Herkules

Senior Devvie




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-05-22 15:59:32 »

I have an idea how to win the contest now ....  Grin

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-05-22 16:43:21 »

Quote
I have an idea how to win the contest now ....  Grin


LOL.

1. surf cs.*.edu sites looking for university undergraduate projects.
2. upload a different half-finished crummy game for each competitor
3. upload a working tetris for yourself.
4. make space on your desk for your brand new computer...

Cool

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline DanK

Junior Devvie




Javver games rock yawel!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-05-23 03:13:34 »

This is a pretty interesting topic to me, personally I'd like to keep my game for the judges eye's only until it's complete (not just complete enough to enter the contest), having these folders viewable by *anyone* means june 7 someone could go through and score them quite a collection of games (some of which I'm assuming are going to be commercial games), is the best solution to upload a 'shareware' type of game where only a very small portion of the game itself is playable or is the idea to make the folders private?

I realize the winners will probably get a great deal of publicity, and so for them keeping their games behind locked doors until they are more ready probably won't be a big issue, however, if even half of the 200 ish people registered manage to submit a game, that's about 96 losers and 4 winners, seein as there's going to be a lot of people who won't be winning it's probably safe to assume that a lot of those people won't want to have their work shown off too much (with the exception of those games that are already self published or already out there somewhere making the rounds). I'm probably just paranoid but it is something that I'd like to know more about ahead of time (if the folders will be made private or if we need to do whatever we feel is best to protect our work from being pirated straight out of the contest). I'm coming from the direction that I've been working on this since long before the contest was announced so anyone who built a game specifically for this contest might feel differently about it.

Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-05-23 05:00:17 »

Sounds like some pretty poor planning went into this submission proces....
Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-05-25 16:17:20 »

Well isn't this interesting.  I guess the judges will just have to email me for the download page and activation numbers.  Since I develop games for a living (as an independent not affiliated with any of the "no-no" publishers), I don't want activation numbers floating around the internet.

I find Java great for developing my games - able to release on Mac, Windows and Linux with relatively little extra work.  I hope I can enter these games for Sun to judge.

Some one from Sun must have read this thread by now.  How about a response Chris or Athomas?
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-05-25 16:46:49 »

Uhm... wasn't there a paragraph that the game has to be public (eg the demo version)?

If it's a thing that bothers you just check it... I'm perfectly fine with that.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline DanK

Junior Devvie




Javver games rock yawel!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-05-25 17:27:26 »

The agreement states that at least one level must be playable, and that the games need to be in a beta or better state, but nothing I could find implied the games had to be public though presumably Sun would want the games ready to be played by the public and at least a demo available, after all I think the idea is for sun to be able to showcase what java can do. Still it'd be good to get something of a more official word on this or clarification, as is I'll probably provide a demo-ish version of the game and hope for the best.

I do think that this could be a problem for a lot of people though and could stop a few contest entries, hopefully we'll get some official clarification for this though.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-05-25 18:02:23 »

According to rule 8:

"by submtting a game ot the contest, Contestant hereby grants...a license to post (or link to) the game."

So you really SHOULD read the rules! You are providing Sun a license to give away your game for free by entering. I doubt they'd be particularly pleased if you turned around and said "ha ha! Yes you can give it away, but it can't be played without the registration keys I have which are secret!". Lawyers could argue over it, but it looks like the intent is that Sun can distribute whatever they're judging (which is fair enough! And standard practice for these compos IIRC..). If you go on to make a bigger version with extra levels and start selling it, fine.

Shrug. Personally I still wish it banned games that had been "years in the making" in the interest of fairness. (i.e. if your game was largely written before the competition even started then it's all a bit silly IMHO...If the compo had been announced something sensible like a year in advance, then fair enough, but it was only 2 months!).

Although, from checking just now, it looks like Alienflux is allowed to enter - assuming a game was not published by an "ineligible publisher" it doesn't seem to matter how old it is. I guess they're trying to bring out of the closet any and all games written in java that have been published to date, and get them all to run out into the open Smiley Huh

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-05-25 18:23:37 »

I really DID READ the rules.  I even read the rules clarification posted in this very forum:

Q. Do you give up rights to your game to Sun Microsystems?
A. No.  You do not give up your rights to your game to Sun Microsystems.  The reason we are not allowing source code to be submitted is to protect the author's work.  Sun Microsystems has the right to use any submission for advertising and promotion, but does not own the game nor the right to distribute or own it.

They may link to my site, with information about the game, but I certainly am not giving them the right to distribute full versions.

This game has not been "years in the making" either. It has been in the works for 5 months.  It doesn't really matter since the intent of the contest was not to see who could build the best game in 3 months.  The intent is to "further encourage great game development and continue to grow the adoption of the Java technology...".  It takes more than 3 months to build a solid game anyhow.  If Sun is truly interested in showcasing Java for building real games, then they of course want those games in-the-works before the contest was announced.  They should also want games that are highly polished and ready for prime-time.  A half-done game implemented in two months isn't going to have a lot of weight with commercial game developers.

If I have to upload demo versions, I will.  The judges will also have the opportunity to email me for full versions with activation numbers.  Keeping them private is only prudent from a business standpoint.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-05-25 18:52:02 »

Well, the judges don't have the time to play through your full game anyways. So a trimmed down version will be just fine.

Really. It's that simple Smiley

From a psychological viewpoint it's also way better if you draw the line. Think about it - you play 30mins and than it's over and you still want to play more VS you play 4h straight and can't be arsed to continue. Apparently case #1 gives a more positive impression than case #2.

Also if I would be one of the judges and you give me the full version as a "present", I would think you try to bribe me and that would most likely negativly influence my decision. I just mention it in case you hadn't took that into consideration.

So... trim it down and spice up those first 30 minutes of your game.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-05-25 19:41:32 »

...actually, my comments about games "years in the making" were not intended specifically at anyone in particular. Just a general observation. I pointed out it was something I would personally have preferred - the reason being I personally wish something were happening that went all-out to encourage people to write games now.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-05-25 19:50:10 »

Quote

Q. Do you give up rights to your game to Sun Microsystems?
A. No.  You do not give up your rights to your game to Sun Microsystems.  The reason we are not allowing source code to be submitted is to protect the author's work.  Sun Microsystems has the right to use any submission for advertising and promotion, but does not own the game nor the right to distribute or own it.


@ChrisM: Doh! You've made your clarifications topic read-only, so we can't ask questions on it.

So, doing so here. In the light of the above, WTF is a "licence to post" a game, as written in the game rules? (number 8, IIRC)

My interpretation had been that:
- the rules gave Sun a right to make available what was given to Sun
- ...without making Sun own it.
- ...and without giving Sun the right to make available any OTHER part of the game, aside from what was entered into the compeition.

So, I thought you would enter the shareware version of your game, and Sun would have the right to distribute it. But Sun would have no rights over the "full" version, which was not entered.

But donohoedigital's interpretation is different. I would go with his, except that I know Sun has many lawyers and I find it hard to believe they'd put in a phrase about granting a license without meaning anything Huh

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-05-25 20:34:43 »

The rules are not written clearly at all.  Nor are the instructions for submitting the game.  In fact, I never received any instructions - I hunted around until I found some folder with my name on it and guessed that is where things go.  And then we find out that it is insecure.

There is no way I would enter this contest if it gave Sun the right to distribute my game to anyone it pleased.  It can use it all it wants for publicity, because that also benefits me.  It wound't make sense for Sun to do this anyhow because it would eliminate some of the best possible entries - commercially viable games.

I would also rather have the full version judged.  For example, in the demo version of War! Age of Imperialism, online play is disabled and games are limited to 7 turns.  In the poker game, you are limited to 20 hands of hold'em.  I certainly don't think of it as a "bribe" to "give" 5 full versions for judging.

Sun must have an answer to this.  I would be happy with an OK to my current solution:  have Sun send me an email when ready to judge and I'll respond with the location of the installers and license keys.  Simple enough and no need for them to add a security layer to the file/folder area of the contest submission section.
Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-05-27 00:15:38 »

Does anyone from Sun have an answer to this?  A reply would be appreciated.

Thanks
Offline crystalsquid

Junior Devvie




... Boing ...


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-05-27 11:52:44 »

I would like to second that request.
Our games, although publicaly PLAYABLE, are not freely distributable in the form of .jar's and the resources. I am happy for people to play for free, but we do have a licensing scheme set up for people wishing to host the games and by posting the raw files into a publicaly readable area invalidates this somewhat :/
An official reply and hopefully the extra security so that people are not free to download the files from the site would be appreciated.

- Dom
Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Devvie




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-05-27 16:40:00 »

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Many of the issues cited here are a result of limitations in the way Java.Net works. We've tried to tailor the contestant role permissions to limit the amount of potential abuse. Unfortunately, there was some confusion about how various role permissions work, which has led to a number of the issues mentioned in this forum.

For those of you concerned about piracy, you may post a README to the folder with instructions for the judges to get access to your games (and any necessary activation codes)

Sun has no plans to distribute the games entered in the contest, but reserves the right to use the games for demonstration purposes. We also reserve the right to post or provide a link to the game, though this isn't intended as a distribution mechanism, but rather an opportunity to provide or direct people to more information about the game. Basically, if we pick a winner, but can't show it off, or privide information about it publicly it's of no use to us. If you've got a game you're planning to release a year from now, and don't want anyone to know about it in the meantime, don't enter the contest.

The game should be playable when entered, and does not necessarily need to be a complete version. If you want to submit a complete version, that's fine, though it would be impractical for the judges to play a 20+ hour game to completion for the sake of evaluating the entry.

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline donohoedigital

Senior Newbie




built by gamers for gamers


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-05-27 16:51:48 »

Athomas,

Thanks much for the reply!

-Doug
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-05-27 17:04:08 »

Quote
Sorry for the delay in responding.


For stuff like this it's probably better that it takes a while to get a response, but you've had time to make the response complete and accurate Smiley

Quote

We also reserve the right to post or provide a link to the game, though this isn't intended as a distribution mechanism, but rather an opportunity to provide or direct people to more information about the game. Basically, if we pick a winner, but can't show it off, or privide information about it publicly it's of no use to us.

[/quote]

Ah! [me]sees the light[/me]. When you say "link to a game" (here and in the rules) you mean "link to ...the promotional website for the...game", whereas I read it as meaning "link to ...the executable for the...game".

I spend so much time dealing with game executables, I read "game" to mean somethign I can download and play Smiley.

The issue over Sun needing a licence for this now becomes obvious too - due-diligence butt-covering by lawyers to ensure that no-one comes down on you for breaking their "secret pre-release publicity black-out" (as you described above - and which corporations have been *sued* for before, shocking though it seems).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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