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Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 2


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Posted 2003-02-08 20:26:48 »

Here's a bit of an interresting read:
http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memodetails.php?memo_id=1321

Quote

The Java Problem
Author: Julian S. Taylor
Reviewed by: Steve Talley, Mark Carlson, Henry Knapp, Willy (Waikwan) Hui, Eugene Krivopaltsev, Peter Madany, Michael Boucher

Executive Summary

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-02-08 20:40:42 »

It's nice of them to admit they've made every single f**kwitted mistake with Java that they could have done - and this is only bitching about the Solaris implementation!

Hehehehehe.

Will they listen to us now?

Cas Smiley

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-02-10 11:25:46 »

No more needs to be said really, it's pretty much an admission that the jvm is way too fat, which is what everyone else has been saying for ages.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-02-10 12:13:21 »

Not only fat but fat and unreliable. I'm having terrible headaches with 1.3 bugs. I can't incrementally patch it to 1.4, we have to do a huge rollout to thousands of PCs with 1.4 now because it's easier than working around all the 1.3 bugs.

Just give me a bare VM & free license to distribute it, and break J2SE down into hundreds of little versioned JARs with proper dependencies and an auto-download feature and I think a lot of troubles will go away.

Cas Smiley

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-02-10 12:40:49 »

Better don't post that link somewhere else, for we don't want to let somebody else suspect there might be any unconvenience or even a problem around Java.....

Grin

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Stuart Still

Senior Newbie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-02-10 13:49:43 »

Hmm, me thinks that is already too late!!!  Its on /.    Smiley

Stu
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-02-10 13:57:03 »

Hmmm....
I sense a growing feeling of frustration with java in general on this board (Including myself sometimes; especially at this momement, just coming to the conclusion at work that Xalan is mostly useless because it's so slow it's not even funny).
Can someone please explain again why we are still bothering with it?
I'm losing faith here  Roll Eyes
and that document is feeding that feeling Tongue

Offline Stuart Still

Senior Newbie





« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-02-10 14:03:01 »

I think it is because it is such a convienient language.  It is very readable, and it kinda feels nice.  Can't quite explain it!  Also I think everyone on this board wants to prove the point that it can be done, and everyone is very persistent.  I suspect Sun is going to pull the finger out soon (hopefully), because at the moment I can see C# becoming more successful than Java, unless Sun do something!  Lets hope they make the right decision Smiley

Stu
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-02-10 14:11:34 »

Quote
I think it is because it is such a convienient language.


That's just because we are used to it, isn't it?
I mean, I was very feeling very convenient with assembly once until the cpus I learned it on became obsolete and I lost interest in programming for a while.
Isn't C++ convenient as well once we get to know it well? It is the way that most people went (as far as game programming is concernced), so there's much more knowledge available.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-02-10 17:38:27 »

I have to say that C++ is looking more convenient by the day. But I'll stick with Java for the time being, and if it doesn't get any better, I'll jump ship.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-02-10 18:56:52 »

Hrmmyes... That wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear, but it's close to my own feelings although I suppose I have a lot less insight (even my skills in C are rusty  Tongue).

Although I still find java nice for the projects I'm working on at the office, I don't think java is that great for making games other than small applets or small web-start distributed games (for that kind of thing java is probably the only good option still, until M$ has stolen and improved those ideas too).
Web Start is still cool  Cool but I doubt it will save java.

Grin Grin Grin And now something positive about java gaming, please  Grin Grin Grin

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-02-10 19:18:00 »

I think I pointed that out in other threads as well: if you go for mainstream games in Java, you will loose. Did I mention that? Did I say that there's barely a reason to to step aside the well-established C++ path (except of having a nice language)? I think I did.

Anyway, there are still good reasons for games in Java.
The main points are the availability of a rich, free, well-integrated and thus usable set of technology right in place at your fingertips.

- 3D engine
- sound
- media access
- database (XML?)
- GUI
- speech synthesis
- ...

Other points are high availability (e.g. by WebStart) from everywhere and, corresponding to that, network-awareness.

And scalability! Java apps may scale from action frontends over server components down to mobile applications. Same time, same technology.

All these connected by a nice, garbage collected language that easily integrates components (try to use a couple of different C++-libs! Go! Do it!) and makes them work together. All these supported by 1st-class devtools - you really have the choice!

Cross(client)platform doesn't really count. On the desktop there is nothing but windows (although I've heard the Mac is very strong in the US, it's a real pitty that Java is so far back on MacOS).

All we need is a game concept that is able to exploit these things! That's the difficult point and not done until today.

So people here should just stop performing benchmarks all the time. They are worthless. Java is fast enough if you have the right, outstanding concept for an appropriate game.

So - seldom enough - mine is the positive part today.

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-02-10 19:46:01 »

I haven't got much of an issue with speed any more! Especially since eschewing all the standard libs that came with Java. But I've been having a right gnashing-of-teeth over how much more complicated it is to do some of the most important things in Java compared to C++.

Trouble is I'm addicted to serialization and garbage collection. Amongst other niceties.

Cas Smiley

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-02-10 20:01:21 »

There are GCs for C++ around......  Roll Eyes

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-02-10 20:06:01 »

Quote
- 3D engine  

You don't mean java3d, do you? I mean, it's nice but games using it will always look a bit outdated. And I suspect slowish too.
I never saw something using java3d that 'felt good', and believe me, I searched.

Quote
- sound  

javax.sound? Aargh!

Quote
- media access

hmmm ok

Quote
- database (XML?)

Nah, XML is useless for games. Especially the standard implementation in J2SE. Xerces/Xalan is an extremely slow and memory hogging piece of code. If you want visible gc, go for XML.
But JDBC is nice, although I'm not quite sure how well that (or databases in general) fits in a game.

Quote
-Other points are high availability (e.g. by WebStart)

That's only true when WebStart will be sitting on most desktops. That's hardly the case atm.

Well, I don't want to try to bash your arguments and I do appreciate the positive input. Most of them I even agree with, but I am more than a bit worried about java's current state of affairs (apart from the technical issues which I suspect every language has).
Maybe a bit too much even, I don't know Roll Eyes

Offline markuskidd

Junior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-02-10 20:08:22 »

Without all of the macros, operator-overloading, and 30-year-old backwards compatibility, Java makes it possible for someone like me who doesn't work in a technical field or have loads of free time to still accomplish something from time to time. Since I can only code in small installments, working in Java allows me to get more productivity out of my time because there is less overhead from deciphering what some piece of code does. It somehow is many times easier for me to think in Java than in C/++. That's the reason why I'm here, anyway.  Grin
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-02-10 20:33:42 »

erikd, you didn't get my point....

Yes, Java3D. Yes, javax.media.j3d.Sound.

Slow? Hm. Outdated? A bit. But you can build highly complex 3D worlds easily. You cannot do that with DX9! (ok, I admit DX is getting stronger and stronger, half a 3D engine meanwhile)

Sure, you cannot do pixelshader stuff. So forget about the jaw-dropper graphics-wise. GameBoy cannot do it neither! Tamagotchi couldn't as well. PS1/PS2 don't have pixelshaders. Pokemon is ugly. But they all sell games! Huge numbers!

And who here ever reached the limits of Java3D? Used everything it has? Combined into a real-world gaming framwork?

Why is XML useless for games?? Having a SOAP-based webservice with world rankings that can be queried from everywhere, e.g. with a mobile? Online-rankings are VERY addictive! Yes, combine that with JDBC to feed that server from an action-client. With Java, it's easy, it's all right there. Just use it.

And yes, databases can fit in Java games. HUGE databases bc. you can handle them. Combine the game with a HUGE repository of items/things/characters/weapons/ammunition a player can buy online e.g..

Have a flexible, maybe totally mutuable game by providing missions/task/gameplay elements (as XML? From a database?) and new code - this could keep attraction high over quite a long time. Easy in Java (well...).

Don't do Quake4!!

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-02-10 22:26:34 »

I think this is a very interesting and important discussion.  I don't have much to add, yet, because as we speak I haven't gotten to the point where I can speak about my upcoming game.

But I do have this idea to contriubute: I think we are discussing two very different aspects of the same problem.  I would like to see if I'm right:

The topic is the internal memo, which is causing some to question Java's place in gaming.  The two sides, though seem to focus on a) the technology, i.e., what Java can do versus what C++ can do, or b) the business of gaming, which is fueled by completely different decisions other than "which language is better suited?"

My question to you is, why are these two topics seemingly mutually exclusive?

gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-02-10 23:54:06 »

Well, everything's just one big mish mash of stuff really, all inextricably linked in some way or other. My take on this is: I am an engineer - a proper, hardcore software engineer, not a script kiddie, web luvvie, or VB hacker. A hundred years ago I'd probably have been designing suspension bridges or steamtrains.

As an engineer, I've only got one thing on my mind: a problem I'm trying to solve, and the set of tools available to me with which to solve it. Now, there's a famous old saying that when the only tool you've got is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

Right about now Java is looking like that hammer and it's not giving the optimal solution to solving many of my engineering problems.

Now normally an engineer chucks the tool away and finds a better one, or modifies the existing tools to make them work better for the task at hand. Chucking a tool away and using a different one is usually very high risk because it will bring with it its own set of troubles and of course, a learning curve. Modifying the tool, unfortunately, is not possible, because I do not (*HINT*) have direct access to some important people in Sun who wish to take the issue up with me and actually have the power to act on it and bring the Java language into the next generation.

There are a lot of language lawyers about, OO purists, "JIT-compilation-will-(theoretically and potentially)-save-the-world"ers, wannabes and general ignoramuses about who will argue about the merits of one syntax versus another or the risk in breaking things until they're blue in the face. None of these f**kers gets anything done. How long did we wait for generics? Why? And how long before the whole API is rewritten properly to make use of them? I want solutions, and I want them implemented very soon, or I'll be forced to go back to first prinicples and code the whole bloody lot on my own, as usual. LWJGL is just one symptom.

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-02-11 12:05:20 »

Maybe we should not want to write quake 4, but if we want to write cutting edge games using java it would be nice if we would be able to come close.
It's true, apart from great gameplay, great visuals sell.

Sure we got some nice tools from Sun, but they really should be(-come) cutting edge.
People running a java game on their PC don't care that it's using J3D and that also a gameboy can't do great looking 3d stuff. They paid big bucks for their PC with fancy 3d card and they want to see it produce marvellous things.
They don't care about platform independence at all.
We can't hide behind "but it's just gameplay that counts, not graphics" crap.

But I get your point though (and I was wrong about the XML/db thing. Actually my own online hiscore server uses XML  Grin)

But nevertheless, there is a great gap between what java might be capable of in the future, and what it's actually good for at this moment.
For me, that is:
- Java is a convenient highly productive language
- Networking, serialization, those things are quite easy to do in java.
- Easy deployment and updating using WebStart for smaller games (well, this will only work if it will be sitting on most desktops). I've said it one (okay, maybe twice  Grin) but Java WebStart is cool  Cool

I personally hope that Sun will improve (fix!) what they have now, and don't throw just in lots of new technologies. And become a bit more practical before it's too late.
They've come such a long way already.

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-02-11 13:02:39 »

Ok, I'm with you now.

Graphics: there is wide spectrum - crap-reasonable-stunning. 'reasonable' can be reached even today - yet nobody really tried. I don't say we can deliver crap and compensate that by gameplay.

E.g. Battlefield1942 graphics is not stunning! It's reasonable. Nevertheless that game sells.

Many games RELY on graphics only. We cannot do that. So we have to combine reasonable graphics with some other added value that can be best done in Java.

I don't have a recipe how this can look like. Feels like it should be something easy, nothing that requires 250MB on the disc. Something scalable, incrementally loading, extendable, playable from the computer @work, observable from the mobile while being on the train...

I share your doubts concerning deployment - WebStart is really a good mean - given there is Java (and Java3D) installed! If Sun succeeds on court, maybe....

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-02-11 13:07:41 »

Everything being said so far (and Cas, I happen to agree with you whole-heartedly) seems to lead me towards one idea:


OPEN SOURCE JAVA.

I think Sun needs to do it.  I think they need to do it now.

gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-02-11 14:01:32 »

Sun are very very afraid that something or other will happen with Java. I don't know what it is they're afraid of but they seem ever so protective of it. It is their intellectual property of course and we are mostly using stuff that they are giving us free because they're nice like that anyway so it's not like we're getting nothing from them and certainly not like they owe us anything. It just seems to me that open-sourcing would probably improve the language as a whole and having gone as far as they have in terms of freely distributing the jre and the rest, it doesn't seem like that big a step onwards.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-02-11 21:51:30 »

Actually, Java is open source already. It hasn't helped because even if I wanted to delve into the code and start playing with it, my changes would be vetoed.

What Java needs is a tiny team of about 5 engineers who have some serious understanding of what it means to program computers and little interference from business. The business of Java is about marketing add-on libraries such as J2EE. The engineering behind Java should be purely focused on delivering the best of computer engineering to the people that need it.

I would like to send an email to whoever develops Java and say: "I would like you to implement typedefs and structs in Java, so that it becomes easy to interface with external systems and so we can efficiently allocate memory without garbage collection overhead." And I'd like to get a response in a couple of days from someone who asks me why I want this, in more detail. And when they understand how cool it is, they'd say, "Sure, we'll do that, it might take a year but we'll do it, because there's no good reason not to and plenty of good reasons to do it."

Cas Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-02-12 00:16:56 »

Quote

I would like to send an email to whoever develops Java and say: "I would like you to implement typedefs and structs in Java, so that it becomes easy to interface with external systems and so we can efficiently allocate memory without garbage collection overhead." And I'd like to get a response in a couple of days from someone who asks me why I want this, in more detail. And when they understand how cool it is, they'd say, "Sure, we'll do that, it might take a year but we'll do it, because there's no good reason not to and plenty of good reasons to do it."


You can't get a decent answer from Sun about what they intend to do with Java3D or even JSR134 so certainly you don't think you'll ever get that kind of response from them. To be honest you won't get that from any business, not Microsoft, not BEA, not Nintendo, not Sony, not Electronic Arts, none of them. The answer is simple - gathering that level of input from the developer community is nigh impossible to coalesce into anything meaningful because the problem is just too large now. Java is large, millions of people depend on it now and making changes to it is really going to only be influenced by people plunking down money through the JCP process - I wish that weren''t the truth but it is. Heck in our own little community of LWJGL we already see it - now magnify that about ten thousand times.

In terms of the other issue with respect to games, I've said it before and I'll say it again (since I've been there on that side of the fence) - if you think its about what technology you're using and how cool it looks and such, you're being led by your technical gamer mind. The business side of the house DOES NOT work that way. The business side of the house is concerned with return on investment. If you were to sell them your game for 10k and they saw that they could make 15k with little effort, they'd pick it up regardless of what was running the game. In reality, they really don't care - so long as it doesn't cause them a technical support headache. The thing I've seen soo many developers do is go on about how cool the technology is and how it will change the face of gaming and how their game will be a million seller so its worth 500k up from with $5 back end royalties and publishers are cool upfront and then throw your CD into the trash when you leave the room. In order to be an indie and be successful, at least from my experience working with the sales and marketing guys who were throwing what I thought were good games into the waste bin, is you MUST ABSOLUTELY understand the business side of it. You must understand the business of retail sales. And you must be willing to establish a partnership with the publisher. Many times this means that the publisher will rape you for your 1st title, and maybe your second as you build your reputation. But sooner or later they will give you reasonable money for your work (if you can avoid them hiring you outright - another classic mistake), and even contract you out to develop works for them (nice money there). But if you don't understand the business side of the house - in 90% of cases the waste bin awaits.

There's a reason why absolute shite can make it onto retail shelves and still sell well.... product positioning (i.e Deer Hunter), decent marketing partners (i.e. DH->Walmart), and a good market demographic. If you can't explain these facts to a publisher and convince them that you can make more money than you're going to cost - you're wasting your time regardless of if you're coding for the PC, Mac, Linux, PS2, Gamecube, government simulation Onyx, etc.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-02-12 01:35:58 »

Cas,

Of course I recognize that the library source code for most, if not all of Java, is available.  By OSS I was heading towards the idea that Sun needs to stop owning it.

Take a look at other technologies for example, where the ownership isn't held (not necessarily not led by, but not HELD) by a single entity, but in fact that change could be made by anyone.

And thus, yes, here comes the anarchy involved with managing such a beast, as gamers will want X, business developers want Y, and mobile programmers want Z, where X, Y, and Z might actually be mutually exclusive.

So one has to ask what went wrong with JSRs and the Java Community Process that was supposed to prevent all this?


gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-02-12 12:30:05 »

Don't worry, I've got my finger on the pulse as far as business is concerned - I've been running my own business for 6 years now and I've probably made more money (and spent it Cheesy ) in that time than most people will ever earn in their entire lives - but the issue I have is: can I write games quickly enough to make a living from it?

I think that in order to make the same kind of money from games programming as a being a contract whore, I'd probably need about 10 games published over the next 5 years. This means I need to be able to develop good games in about 4-6 months. If the technology is getting in the way of doing that, why, then I have to switch technology or I'll be skint, and that's a fairly harsh business reality.

Now the question is: if I am having trouble with making a living programming Java games, then aren't a lot of other developers going to have a similar take on this? In the business world of games studios, they'd have to take a long hard look at Java and determine the risks in using the technology. I can state that I suspect I'm no further ahead writing a game now in Java than I would have been in C++, because I have spent so much time writing glue code, working my way around major syntactical deficiencies, worrying about floating point performance, etc. It's still all risk and no gain from switching. In order to redress the balance I think there needs to be some canny technology that's not cool, just necessary to push Java firmly into a position where it can fight its corner on level ground and not just be "as fast as C++" but "as fast as C++ and easier to use to write games."

Gergis: the JCP is a political invention, and thus inextricably tied with large amounts of money. And that goes to explain, in a nutshell, why it's no use to the likes of us. It's been said that the only people who should be prevented from ruling the world are the people that want to do it; likewise, anybody who runs the JCP isn't there to suit us, they're there to suit themselves. I've already been advised that starting a JCP to sort out my issues with Java Games is an unwise move, and will cost me money, so I should jolly well keep my nose out of it. Imagine the political friction it would cause - whatever happened to JSR134 people would ask? Etc. In fact, it would be so publicly embarrassing the JSR would be vetoed from the outset.

Cas Smiley

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-02-12 15:16:12 »

I don't think you will find a reason to do a mainstream game in Java. No way. No reason that holds on any commercial valuable scale.

The scenario has to be that there is an existing, extraordinary and promising game concept and a technical analysis shows it HAS to be done in Java. THEN Java MIGHT be a candidate to head for.

'I want to make it in Java bc. Java is so cool and easy to use' is absolutely not relevant in a commercial context.

Otherwise it is interesting for enthusiasts, hobbyists, spare-time-game-coders. researchers. Most people here fall into these categories Smiley



HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #28 - Posted 2003-02-12 16:14:15 »

I have a feeling that's not what Chris & Jeff intended when they started to evangelise Java for gaming. There's a multi-billion dollar industry behind gaming now, bigger than Hollywood and unusually in these trying economic times it's still growing, so I'm surprised the Sun execs haven't sat up and taken notice - and a large slice of that money comes from consoles and AAA titles. And Java doesn't seem compatible with either of those right now. That's not to say that you aren't right, because given the current state of play, you're spot-on, but I don't think its where we want to remain.

Cas Smiley

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2003-02-12 16:42:49 »

I doubt they ever targeted the console or the desktop market. Many things point to J2ME, Sun claims to be THE network company ('the net is the computer') so I think they emphasized on mobile gaming. There, indeed, Java is quite strong - yet it isn't a multi-billion$ business right now.

Having that in mind we have to look for the right game concepts. For the Java platform is scalable from micro-devices to super-computers, there might be the chance do something other platforms cannot do. And this might include desktop action gaming - but maybe only as a part of bigger concept.



HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
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2014-04-01 02:16:10
List of Learning Resources
by SHC
2014-04-18 03:17:39

List of Learning Resources
by Longarmx
2014-04-08 03:14:44

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-05 13:51:37

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:46

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:37

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:51

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:34

Anonymous/Local/Inner class gotchas
by Roquen
2014-03-11 15:22:30
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