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  Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman...  (Read 17015 times)
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Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Posted 2004-04-16 13:16:42 »

Open letter and challenge to Mr Kesselman, in response to a debate in his latest blog http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/1198

Jeff,

As you appear to be so confident that Java is suitable for multiplatform games development, and that it will perform as well as native code, I want you to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. You have told me that a physics engine will perform just as fast in a Java VM as it will in native code, so I propose you financially sponsor a competition to build a simple Java physics simulation that will match or outpeform a native code version, using exactly the same simulation algorithm, collision detection algorithm and maths. If you or any other entrant can match (within 0.5%) or beat the speed of my native code version, the fastest version wins, otherwise I win. The simulation will be set up so that it behaves like a real game loop and not like a micro-benchmark.

Now given that it will be just my code and time vs the whole Java games development community, Sun's resources, experts on Java optimisation like yourself, experts you quote like Professor Kendall, you shouldn't have any problems winning your argument, should you?

Now I don't want to leave this unanswered, so if you fail to accept I (and anyone else reading this) will have to assume you don't believe the views you have published. The rules will be negotiated to ensure a real and fair test scenario for multiplatform games development in Java, so that will not count as an excuse to decline my challenge.

I await your response,

Andrew J Larder.
Offline overnhet

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-04-16 14:08:35 »

Jeff's blog is http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/1198.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-04-16 15:01:10 »

Quote

Now I don't want to leave this unanswered, so if you fail to accept I (and anyone else reading this) will have to assume you don't believe the views you have published.


Thats not the assumption I'd make, I'd assume he'd made an assumption about you. Wink

Kev

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-04-16 15:27:52 »

Hey, I'm not the one who 18 months ago was promising that a PS2 VM announcement was 'around the corner'  Roll Eyes
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-04-16 19:37:13 »

Hmm PS2 or physics, which are we talking about?

Actually thats sort of rhetorical because it doesnt matter either way. As I already explained to Mr. Larder in private, and as you folks all already know, we in the GTG (actually  it wasn't the GTG yet) were at least as disappointed as you folks about the fact that the PS2 VM talks failed to produce results.

We haven't forgotten the importance of this.  It contineus to be a hot button on our list, and we continue to persue avenues to get you guys VMs on consoles.  As I told him.  you guys will be the first to be notified if anything really solid happens but I'm not going to get your hopes up again too early.  Some of us do learn from our experiences.

I also think Mr. Lrder had a good idea. But sincee's the one who cares he should put up the prize, at least 4 dgits worth.  If he does that I'm sure you guys would be happyto compete, wouldn't you?  (Sicne we are talking an individual that prize better be in  verifiable escrow account. and the contest rules clearly and legally stated.)

Otherwise we'd rather use our meager resources to reward you guys for writing good games in things like the current game-programming contest.

And with that, I'm *plonking* this troll.  Does "Land of the Trolls" still exist? If so this thread should clearly bne moved.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-04-16 22:23:55 »

Sorry to hear that, but also glad - I'm really busy at the moment so I could do without a diversion. The real reason you wouldn't touch this with a barge-pole is that you know full well the Mac VM is still about 7x slower than C++. Of course you wouldn't want to make that too public, would you???

You're right though Jeff, I do care, because I like many other developers would love to dump C++ and use Java (believe it or not John Carmack takes an occasional rain check in this direction, but I don't recall Doom 3 being a pure Java game).

I guess next year Jeff will be telling everyone about the great Quake23 clone FullSail have, and of course nobody will ever see it.

I wish I could say it was a pleasure Jeff.

Ta ta.
Offline SpuTTer

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Lazy Middle Class Intellectual


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-04-16 22:37:52 »

You might want to take a break from your 'Real Game' and hit up a counselor! You've got some deep rooted anger management issues you could work on.

Sacramento Volleyball
"Whitty phrase goes here."
Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-04-17 00:04:34 »

Dude your right. I'm taking all of this far too seriously!

Jeff's (I won't resort to Mr Kesselman...) role is to push the positive points of Java and sweep the negatives under the carpet ... he wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't.

If only Java were that good then I'd have time to see that counsellor  Wink
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-04-17 08:19:54 »

Wow! Now that was a good troll! Warts and all. Have you considered politics?

Kev

Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-04-17 11:55:15 »

Hasn't Tony got a space since Alastair Campbell quit? Perhaps you could put a good word in for me  Wink

Seriously though - why if someone asks sound technical questions and then gets frustrated when no hard evidence is delivered, do they get labelled a 'troll'? Hearsay holds no water with me, only runnable code. If Jeff wants me to believe that physics or whatever in Java is as good or better performing than C++ then he can send me a demo of exact equivalence in both languages, including source code. That way I can test it on Win32 and MacOS X. And if he wants me to think that he can cover the other 80% of the games market he can send me an evaluation VM for the PS2, XBox and GameCube. Renderware, NDL and Havok are quite willing to do that today.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-04-17 12:03:01 »

Probably cause when anyone gets frustrated they type things like:

Quote

If only Java were that good then I'd have time to see that counsellor  


on a "Java Gaming" forum. Wasn't intended to offense but surely you can see how that could only be considered a troll? Infact, a mighty impressive troll given the context.

Kev

Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-04-17 12:16:10 »

Quote
why if someone asks sound technical questions and then gets frustrated when no hard evidence is delivered, do they get labelled a 'troll'? Hearsay holds no water with me, only runnable code. If Jeff wants me to believe that physics or whatever in Java is as good or better performing than C++ then he can send me a demo of exact equivalence in both languages, including source code.

Since you're new to this forum, use the search function. You'll find dozens of threads which discuss exactly what you're looking for (provided you really are looking for this). Use keywords like "benchmark", "how not to interpret micro benchmarks", "statistics and other lies", and such, hehe. Jeff wrote many excellent articles in these threads, and usually he proves what he says. No reason for him to repeat himself X times I think.
You could also search the SUN site for some of Jeff's interesting speeches on the Java performance topic, and don't miss his book "Java Platform Performance: Strategies and Tactics" (published online on the SUN site).
Offline philwebster

Senior Newbie





« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-04-17 12:41:09 »

Quote

I also think Mr. Lrder had a good idea. But sincee's the one who cares he should put up the prize, at least 4 dgits worth.  If he does that I'm sure you guys would be happyto compete, wouldn't you?  (Sicne we are talking an individual that prize better be in  verifiable escrow account. and the contest rules clearly and legally stated.)

Otherwise we'd rather use our meager resources to reward you guys for writing good games in things like the current game-programming contest.


I'll stump up some money. Let's agree on some rules, specify an escrow company, etc.

It might also be a good idea for all these hot shots to contribute to the prize fund in some way as well. Put your money where your mouth is.

Offline philwebster

Senior Newbie





« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-04-17 12:48:23 »

Quote

Since you're new to this forum, use the search function. You'll find dozens of threads which discuss exactly what you're looking for (provided you really are looking for this). Use keywords like "benchmark", "how not to interpret micro benchmarks", "statistics and other lies", and such, hehe. Jeff wrote many excellent articles in these threads, and usually he proves what he says. No reason for him to repeat himself X times I think.
You could also search the SUN site for some of Jeff's interesting speeches on the Java performance topic, and don't miss his book "Java Platform Performance: Strategies and Tactics" (published online on the SUN site).


The burden of proof lies with the one making the positive assertion. If Jeff says Java is good enough, Jeff must provide evidence. That's how real debates work.

If Jeff had these statistics all along, why didn't he post links on his weblog? Not everyone reading the weblog would know that this relatively insignificant forum even existed. And like I just said, even if people knew the forum existed, it is still Jeff's responsibility to provide evidence or references. This should be placed on the weblog discussion, where people will actually SEE it.

And by the way, where is this mythical FPS that supposedly runs as fast as Quake 2?
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-04-17 12:49:02 »

Excellent, so how much? Who are you? etc..

Kev

Offline philwebster

Senior Newbie





« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-04-17 12:58:36 »

Quote
Probably cause when anyone gets frustrated they type things like:


on a "Java Gaming" forum. Wasn't intended to offense but surely you can see how that could only be considered a troll? Infact, a mighty impressive troll given the context.

Kev

Jeff made a bunch of assertions regarding Java's fitness for a particular purpose, and people questioned it. This debate was started by Jeff, not Andy. And Jeff DID ask for others' opinions.

If Andy had come into the forum without provocation, and started this discussion, that may be trolling. But asking for evidence in response to a weblog in which comments and debate are encouraged? That isn't trolling.

You can't just call someone a troll just because you disagree with them.

With all the effort you have all made to post replies, I'm suprised no-one thought to just post some links to threads containing this elusive evidence that Andy is wrong.
Offline AndersDahlberg

Junior Member





« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:03:54 »

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/download.jsp, download the sdk and make your own micro benchmark, come back and we will happily explain to you why you are wrong and java is da bomb  Grin
Offline kevglass

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Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:07:47 »

You mean like this one that was posted on Jeff's first reply in his blog discussion:

Quote

Nine Language Performance Round-up: Benchmarking Math & File I/O
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5602&page=3
Other than the Trig issues, Java is up there with the best. BTW the trig tests are a known issue and should be much better in 1.4.2_04 and 1.5beta


Which is frankly where this discussion should have stayed.

And as to trolling, if I went on to a "Cookering with Bananas" forum and use a flippant comment like "If were bananas were any use for cooking" that could be nothing other than a troll. Infact, I was quite impressed with it as a troll, nothing wrong with a good one Smiley

Finally, I've yet to be convinced either way on this argument, so to say that I'd call the poster a troll because I disagree with his argument would be absolutely unfounded.

Kev

EDIT: It does seem that the only performance statistics anyone is going to be satisified with are ones that they've created themselfs (otherwise they're going to be open to interpretation).

Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:15:01 »

Quote


The burden of proof lies with the one making the positive assertion. If Jeff says Java is good enough, Jeff must provide evidence. That's how real debates work.

If Jeff had these statistics all along, why didn't he post links on his weblog?


Exactly. It's easy to say 'we are on parity with C compilers'. As mentioned previously politicians use language like this. But who's compiler? Easier to say you are on parity with GCC (no offense to the guys that work on GCC as you have to cover all bases with one compiler), but maybe not Intel CPP, IBM's PPC970 compiler etc.

Oddly this comparison above was with GCC, and anyway, how dismissive is Jeff of micro-benchmarks?

The debate started by Jeff and was about why games developers are not adopting Java. I responded, and got called a 'troll' (and he was the very first to call me this I believe). Will Jeff apologise for this and the other patronising language he has used with me? Hmmm ... perhaps Jeff should not start debates in future?
Offline philwebster

Senior Newbie





« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:25:31 »

Quote
Excellent, so how much? Who are you? etc..

Kev

I assume most of you are in the US, so you'll be wanting dollars.

How about $500? The rest can be made up from donations by the various participants in this little competition.

I think we should go for a prize fund of about US$1000.

The money comes out of my next paycheque. Can we have some rules worked out before the end of the month?

You would also need to specify an escrow company that we can all agree on, and which makes it easy for participants to submit their money.
Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:29:22 »

Quote

I assume most of you are in the US, so you'll be wanting dollars.

How about $500? The rest can be made up from donations by the various participants in this little competition.

I think we should go for a prize fund of about US$1000.

The money comes out of my next paycheque. Can we have some rules worked out before the end of the month?

You would also need to specify an escrow company that we can all agree on, and which makes it easy for participants to submit their money.


Boy are you on my wavelength. I'm up for this. Will you be backing native code or Java - need to know where the winnings go!!! I presume Jeff will be stumping up his part?
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:35:55 »

$500 dollars, in sterling is about 250 quid? (or is it the other way round?). (hopefully they'll be alot more than that, I wouldn't even bother, but then maybe I don't care enough)

Before anyone starts putting money down it might be a better idea to set out and AGREE rules, intention and what needs to be created to get reasonable results.

I'd also suggest that no-one with a vested emotional interest get involved.

As to Jeff, by the look of his last comment he's not interested in getting involved. Doesn't mean its not a pefectly valid experiment. I do think the cash pot would have to grow a fair bit to get people that know what they're doing involved.

Quote

I responded, and got called a 'troll' (and he was the very first to call me this I believe).


With respect, the "first" (and subsequent) replies Jeff gave on the blog discussion were polite and "fairly" open (given his obvious employment based bias). While some of Jeffs comments have been patronising or possibly flippant, can you not also see that some of yours haven't been exactly diplomatic either? (but then I suppose no-one ever is immensely polite on the internet)

Again, I'm not quite sure why this discussion which seemed to be going pretty well on the blog made its way here?

Not that it isn't fun Wink

Kev

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:41:37 »

Oooh, another idea. If you guys are serious about this cash prize thing and a proper test, how about cross posting the idea to the blog conversation and to some choice gaming sites.

Better still, why not open it to all other languages, from Perl to Assembly, that'd make it really useful and possibly quite lucrative  Grin

Kev

Offline philwebster

Senior Newbie





« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:42:35 »

Quote
You mean like this one that was posted on Jeff's first reply in his blog discussion:


Which is frankly where this discussion should have stayed.

And as to trolling, if I went on to a "Cookering with Bananas" forum and use a flippant comment like "If were bananas were any use for cooking" that could be nothing other than a troll. Infact, I was quite impressed with it as a troll, nothing wrong with a good one Smiley


That isn't a good analogy.

What happened is this:
1) Jeff posts a weblog stating that Java is as good as C, performance-wise, so people should be using it.
2) Andy disagrees, and asked for evidence.
3) After a long and tedious debate which isn't really suitable for a 'post a comment' system, Andy posts a challenge instead, to get Jeff and his supporters to submit evidence in a context relevant to the discussion. It should be noted that this evidence is REQUIRED before anyone can take any assertions regarding Java's suitability as a game development language seriously.
4) The challenge is also posted to this forum, to allow easier discussion.

Andy didn't just come into the forum unprovoked. To rephrase your banana cooking example:
"Somebody says that bananas are better for cooking than fruit X, somebody disagrees and asks for evidence, and when that evidence isn't forthcoming, a bananas vs. fruit X experiment is proposed to establish which party is telling the truth".

Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:46:55 »

Quote


As to Jeff, by the look of his last comment he's not interested in getting involved. Doesn't mean its not a pefectly valid experiment. I do think the cash pot would have to grow a fair bit to get people that know what they're doing involved.
...

Not that it isn't fun Wink

Kev


Of course Jeff won't be getting involved. He'd have to get Apple/Sun to rewrite their JVM to get it up to the speed of the Win32 JVM for a start. I'd gladly pay the $500 just to see that happen.

Oh - and Kev,  I take your 'compliments' in good humour  Cheesy
Offline philwebster

Senior Newbie





« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:48:45 »

Quote
Oooh, another idea. If you guys are serious about this cash prize thing and a proper test, how about cross posting the idea to the blog conversation and to some choice gaming sites.

Better still, why not open it to all other languages, from Perl to Assembly, that'd make it really useful and possibly quite lucrative  Grin

Kev


Maybe in the future ,that could be a good idea, but it goes beyond the scope of the blog and discussion which sparked off the interest in this experiment in the first place.

For now, I'd say no to that. Let's just compare C/C++ and Java. Anything else is 'off topic', so to speak.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing what other languages are capable of.

Edit: typo
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:49:07 »

Ok, I can see your point. It makes sense because you explained it and I read it.

Now, see if we can get it to work the other way, I was talking explicitly about the comment a few posts after the challenge in response to Sputter that said at the end

Quote

If only Java were that good then I'd have time to see that counsellor  


Which is what I called a troll, i.e. during the course of a conversation on a forum oriented towards users of Java, when someone says "If only Java were that good" could be interpreted as being a little provocative or possibly a troll.

Not that it seems to matter really,

Kev

Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:50:49 »

Quote
Ok, I can see your point. It makes sense because you explained it and I read it.

Now, see if we can get it to work the other way, I was talking explicitly about the comment a few posts after the challenge in response to Sputter that said at the end


Which is what I called a troll, i.e. during the course of a conversation on a forum oriented towards users of Java, when someone says "If only Java were that good" could be interpreted as being a little provocative or possibly a troll.

Not that it seems to matter really,

Kev


There was a  Wink after that little joke I seem to recall...
Offline andyl

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:52:32 »

Quote


Maybe in the future ,that could be a good idea, but it goes boyond the scope of the blog and discussion which sparked off the interest in this experiment in the first place.

For now, I'd say no to that. Let's just compare C/C++ and Java. Anything else is 'off topic', so to speak.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing what other languages are capable of.


Nope: C++/C with a little garnish of asm or intrinsics. We are comparing current game dev with Java here.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-04-17 13:54:11 »

So, are we saying "pure" Java only then? No JNI, seems a little unfair not to use a feature of the language Wink

I guess we need to some members of the games development community who know C++ and Java and know enough about physics engines and don't have preconceptions about either side.

EDIT: Incidently, whats your beef with the performance comparison of 9 languages posted above (and in the blog). Its not specific enough to game physics?

Kev

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