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  JGO Community Game  (Read 4443 times)
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Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Posted 2004-04-15 02:05:54 »

All,

WWWAYYYYYY back in the beginning of JavaGaming.org, Jeff and I had an idea.  We were going to start a project called Gunner Mayhem.  

The game design described the game as an 8 player networked game involving 4 tanks (2 people per tank: gunner and driver) and the game was going to be developed by this community.  This way, we pool the collective talents of the JGO community and build something that we give back to the community to learn from.  Open source and free for everyone to learn from.

Due to having to build the games focus for Sun (Smiley) Jeff and I were never able to get this off the ground.  Any interest in resurrecting this idea?

-ChrisM

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 123
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-04-15 07:11:30 »

We all know you guys are super busy. Are you going to have time to head this up?

I've voted Bad just because I don't like seeing good ideas being lost because of a lack of support. We've already seen "community written" ideas go down the tubes through a lack of interest.

However, the game does sound pretty cool. If you can get time and community support I can't wait to play it!

Kev

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-04-15 09:23:21 »

Sounds like a great idea! 3D, it remembers me of games like Tanarus or one of the SourceForge top-projects BZFlag. In 2D, SubSpace/Continuum or good old XPilot come into mind.

I'd like to offer HeadQuarter (and the specific implementation/customization) as the network layer. Thats the kind of game HQ was made for.

But I'm afraid the Sun guys better like to showcase their own stuff and not the things from the community. But maybe I'm wrong....

I could also offer some architectural things to e.g. implement engine independance.

Generally I'd like to contribute. Featured as a Sun-project, the survival chances are better than for other community projects. So I voted 'good'!


HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline misterX

Junior Member




java forever!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-04-15 09:51:48 »

it's a great idea, of course! (i voted good). However, it'll need strong and wise leadership and that's maybe the hardest thing to achieve.
...I also see a battle coming about what APIs to use! ;-)
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-04-15 09:58:15 »

I just started that battle Smiley

I'm always a friend of technologically rich games! So why not offer the option to implement with different APIs?

Other more important things are open: 2D/3D? Low-resource, playable off the web vs. fullblown, 250MB-d'load game, complex vs. casual gameplay, ....

I have preferences for each.

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-04-15 12:14:59 »

This sounds like a really good idea, however I have not voted yet as I am going to see how this discussion progresses Wink  

The vision of the game seems really cool as it is pretty simple in concept but should allow for some really nice features.  

My reservations are pretty much the same a Kev's.  A project like this will need very careful design and control to stop it fizzling out or going of the rails.  Will it be possible for someone with authority over the project to have the time and dedication to do this?

I think that the goal
   
Quote
Open source and free for everyone to learn from.


Is a very good idea, again though it will need an architecture that is carefully designed and controlled so that it will serve as a good learning aid for people to come along and be able to learn from the code.  I almost think that this is probably more/as important than it looking really cool.  

It is almost like what blahblahblahh (I think it was blahblahblahh any way) was talking about a while ago, creating an evolving game/tutorial for people to learn from.

Hope this doesn't sound too negative I would really like to see this game written, and if I could find time I wouldn't mind contributing to it.  I just hope that doesn't become a wasted opportunity.

Regards,
Dan.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-04-15 13:32:04 »

Ok,  so here's the deal.

If we provide a project lead on this we need community consensus on a few things.  First of all, being that we will be the ones that have to support this, it should come as no suprise that we need to have the inital APIs be JOGL, JOAL, etc.  That does not mean that we won't also port to LWJGL, etc.  but to get support on us running this, we need to build on top of the technology standards we are responsible for. (actually, this could prove to be a great test bed for demonstrating the differences between the various APIs and allow developers to choose what they want to deploy.)

Secondly, if we have a project lead assigned to this, then it needs to be understood that there is a LEAD on the project.  This does not mean that the community won't decide on the development of the game, but when it comes to making a tough decision the lead needs to have the authority to draw a line in the sand and make a decision.  Not everyone will agree with everything that is decided but the ability to lock things down and move forward is necessary to get the job done.

With regard to server stuff...our goal in this would be to see if we can deploy to more than one server back end.  We have several represented here (HeadQuarter, Grex, Sun..Smiley) and, again, the goal of this project is to build something fun, compelling, and useful for the community.  This means supporting as many technologies as possible.

Perhaps this is a utopian view of the project, but that's what I would like to achieve with this project.

Thoughts?

-ChrisM


Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-04-15 13:47:29 »

Quote

Thoughts?


If you can get a good project manager on the case - which sounds feasible based on your statements above - AND you can assign at least one developer who you *know* will be able to devote time consistently, then it's definitely worth doing. The PM becomes the anchor that holds the project together, and the developer becomes the ever-turning crank that ensures it never fizzles out - even if all the volunteers get ill one month (or some such disaster Smiley).

Without, I think it's more likely to fizzle out than succeed Sad, simply because it's going to be excessively hard to keep things going right to the end. Even dedicated games studios have difficulty Smiley. I've run volunteer organizations before, and it can be VERY difficult making things happen when none of the people working for you are salaried, even when they're highly motivated; real-life (and more pressing things, like earning money, doing day-jobs, etc) has a tendency to get in the way Sad.

Of course, I mean a genuine professional PM, not just someone who *thinks* they can "probably" handle proj-mgmt.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: just to be clear, I'm not saying I think the PM and developer have to be full-time; they just need to be able to guarantee some number of hours per week, to ensure there is *ALWAYS* some visible progress going on.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 123
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-04-15 14:07:31 »

If you were to have actual project LEAD who would actually LEAD the project then I'd change my vote!

Technologies wise, people like to argue, but at the end of the day if its a good (in terms of fun, education) its not going to make much difference.

However, as an initial input, I think you'd be wise not to worry too much about make it technology neutral at an early stage.

Kev

Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-04-15 14:39:08 »

some things whould hurt my sensibility (JOGL for example) so I don't think it's a good idea since most of ppl here got biased preferences  Grin
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-04-15 16:48:21 »

Personally I feel that the principle of a community written game is a good idea, with the already mentioned limits to that.  If Chris is willing and able to get someone dedicated to keep it going then he'd well with in his rights to decide what tech will be used for the initial version Wink

After all it should not really matter what it's written in (well as long as Java fits in somewhere Wink )

What does matter is that it:
  • is fun
  • is a good example code design wise
  • show cases java well
  • is fun


Personally I would have though that Xith would be a good choice, but if we get too hung up on which technology is used we are going to waste alot of time, get annoyed and not get anywhere.

I think that having proper lead on the project that can make decisions would be a very good move, someone need to be there to draw the line, the rest of us will just have try and accept this gracefully Wink

all IMHO,
Dan.



Offline BugBear

Senior Newbie




Ground FX Racing


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-04-15 18:03:58 »

I'd be happy to contribute some 3d models to this project, although my texturing skills aren't great.

Here are a few samples of my low poly models: http://www.tomsmallwood.net/maya/samples/
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-04-15 18:06:23 »

+1

The decision to use JOGL et al is yours to make, and the decision sounds correct to me - let's not start a technology flame war just yet.  Plenty of time for that later. Wink

The stated intention is to cause community collaboration on something, but is there any tie-in with Jeff's ongoing "game server" work here?  I'd appreciate a full statement of intent up-front, for full-disclosure purposes.

Regarding leadership, I'm a firm believer in giving a single person dictatorial control in any serious project.  Anarcho-syndicalism is a lovely idea, but history shows that it just plain doesn't work.

Nice idea, guys!

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline SpuTTer

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Lazy Middle Class Intellectual


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-04-15 18:18:33 »

I agree that if done right, this is a really good idea.

Worst case: It doesnt work out and we end up with nothing less than we have now.

Sacramento Volleyball
"Whitty phrase goes here."
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-04-15 20:33:30 »

Initially Id say no on the game server.  You guys should go ahead and develop this the way you'ld like.  Since the playground, if it happens, still won't be for awhile I'd say its best actually NOT to design around the game server.

I don't have the time to project manage or engineering lead  on thsi so I really don't have a lot otherwise I can directly say. (I believe in meritocracies, he who does the work makes the rules Smiley )

I probably at some point WOULD like to get around to taking whatever you guys develop and doing a version that ties into my server for demo purposes.  Hopefulyl if you are going to open soruce it that won't be a rpoblem Smiley

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
kul_th_las
Guest
« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-04-15 20:37:09 »

I would simply reiterate a couple of cfm's notes:

a) Let's get a much better idea of intent (and a design outline, at very least)
b) Strong leadership

I withold my vote until there's more information, but it sounds like it has potential (of course, with no design document, how can we really make a judgement?).

On another note, what's the deal with posting the poll on the front of the forum page?! Sure, it's a community project, but it seems a bit unfair that the, shall we call them, "Sun Sponsered" ideas get this kind of attention, above and beyond the normal posting visibility.

Don't get me wrong, I apprecitate that we even have this forum, and all the people and services we have access to for free...I speak simply from the standpoint of equality.
Offline TheBohemian

Junior Member




Java will rule them all!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-04-15 20:38:49 »

This looks like a very interesting experiment and I am supporting the idea.

Relating the tech flamewar: I just want to remember that Java is VERY strong at abstracting. Doing this right and having multiple implementations for choice will probably cause some attention from people who dislike Java for games ... maybe Smiley

Just my two ยค cents.

cya

TheBohemian

---------------------------------------
my favorite OS: http://jnode.sf.net
Java 1.5 -> 1.4 converter: http://retroweaver.sf.net
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-04-15 20:52:24 »

Quote
I would simply reiterate a couple of cfm's notes:

a) Let's get a much better idea of intent (and a design outline, at very least)
b) Strong leadership

I withold my vote until there's more information, but it sounds like it has potential (of course, with no design document, how can we really make a judgement?).

On another note, what's the deal with posting the poll on the front of the forum page?! Sure, it's a community project, but it seems a bit unfair that the, shall we call them, "Sun Sponsered" ideas get this kind of attention, above and beyond the normal posting visibility.

Don't get me wrong, I apprecitate that we even have this forum, and all the people and services we have access to for free...I speak simply from the standpoint of equality.

Equality, what the heck is that?!?! Smiley

seriously, the only time polls get bumped up to the front is when we believe that the whole community should be aware of the question being asked.  To be fair, there are other polls (not started by Sun) that we have hosted on the front page.  We try to be fair and if there is an important question, we try to bump it.

Not everything can be highlighted.  Sorry.  This one, however, requires input from the whole community because it will be built by this community.

-ChrisM

kul_th_las
Guest
« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-04-15 23:56:51 »

Alright. Thinking back I can think of non-Sun topics that received special recognition.

I wasn't trying to say that "everything" should be highlighted. I guess I just didn't see the point. Yes, it's a project for the whole community, but that doesn't make it all that different or special in my opinion.
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-04-16 03:02:34 »

So lets get going on this; If were going to use straight jogl then we can use

1. MS3D models for the tanks/scenary
2. Heightmap for the terrain
3. Octree for scenemanagement
4. some particle effects

and boom, you've got your game   Grin

EDIT: I'd like to see the models as basically two parts; the hull and the turret.  Then when you blast it the turret can explode up and flip around in the air "Just like the real thing" (tm).
Offline SpuTTer

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Lazy Middle Class Intellectual


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-04-16 05:19:45 »

I think 'getting going' would be premature without the leader being appointed and without a lot of planning and design.

Sacramento Volleyball
"Whitty phrase goes here."
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-04-16 07:58:13 »

Perhaps once there is a leader in place and an initial statement about the game is drafted Chris should move the discussion to Game Play/Design.  The we can get int deyails such as will it be MVC or ........
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-04-16 11:03:40 »

Quote
So lets get going on this; If were going to use straight jogl then we can use

1. MS3D models for the tanks/scenary
2. Heightmap for the terrain
3. Octree for scenemanagement
4. some particle effects

and boom, you've got your game   Grin


Far away. You have something like a 3D scene then. Thats thing where 'engine abstraction' could be implemented.


HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline misterX

Junior Member




java forever!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-04-16 14:04:24 »

hmm... i like the abstraction idea started by herkules. I really like it. It's maybe harder but gives freedom and satisfaction to everyone. Maybe it is possible to make a very high-level structure where everything under is implemented with whatever technology you wish. The leader and the community will have to focus on one and only one (preferably) implementation (JOGL, JOAL... in that case) while the possibility for others to try other technologies is still open.
Roll Eyes
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-04-16 15:35:14 »

I suggest that the project is spun out into several parts:
Protocol specification
Resources
Server
and any number of client implementations

Cas Smiley

Offline sma

Junior Member





« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-04-17 09:06:19 »

I voted "good" because at least I'd love to watch any community project raising (and hopefully neither falling nor failing) despite of the project specification being very vague right now...

Shall it be an action game or a strategy game?
Shall it be an exact simulation or some fun game?
Shall it use 2D or 3D (first person or bird's eye)?
Shall it support J2SE or J2ME (or both)?
Is it multi-user only?
What's the project's timeframe?

To not only raise questions, here're my answers from a customer's point of view:

Personally I prefer strategy games. I wouldn't want to play an exact military simulation. I'd prefer it the games tries to not have any relation to reality - a hovertank battle on a distant planet is better than immitating a "real" battlefield (WWII, Iraq, whatsoever).  2D would be sufficient for me (especially if it'd be more a strategic game but I could understand if it should be a demonstration for Java's 3D capabilities.  I wouldn't be a customer for a J2ME game but multi-user only would be fine with me. Last but not least, I recommend to get something done quickly and then learn from and improve that version in let's say two months instead of having a plan for the "next great game" which would take at least 2 years to complete.

.: Truth Until Paradox!
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-04-17 17:40:25 »

Of course I have to claim now that strategy games suck Smiley.
In fact, I personally like action games more and they are a bigger challenge network wise.

IMHO the game should showcase standard Java as much as possible. So using common Java2/3D for rendering should be preferred over a Java-binging to the Unreal engine.

My personal interest in participating would be to see my HeadQuarter stuff in an environment that does not necessarily follow my thinking patterns. And to grow and refine HQ under the pressure of real-world needs. For HQ isn't a 'server thing' but a networking infrastructure it wouldn't make much sense to define network protocols as cas suggests, bc. HQ defines its own. And I feel it would be hard to plug HQ into an existing game just for its infrastructure characteristics. Objects relations, types, properties .... all these thing can be modeled directly in the HQ subsystems.


Talking about 8 players, there is no need for a big 'server thing'. Maybe matchmaking and ranking, which could be achieved with common web technology.

One big point always coming up in community projects: where to get the artwork from? Programmers often work just out of excitement .... artists not. Very hard to get good artwork for free. Except you already have a VERY popular game! So I suggest to head for a more puristic, technology driven game. For me, a 2D game with vector graphics would do the job. If an engine replacement is possible, better graphics may follow.... (hm, ok, the last chapter describes the JPilot project).

Last I think, we will not be able to negotiate gameplay, or wether it is 2D or 3D, here. The opinions will be too different and the discussion leads to polemic war quickly.

The basic game concept written by an accepted authority (maybe the later project lead) has to be proposed first. Then we can talk about the means to make it reality.

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Middy

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-05-12 12:39:08 »

Its ok with JOGL. Cause afterwards us LWJGL guys will port it and show you all how much better it runs  Grin

When do I get my makeMyGameAsILike() extension?
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