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  Sun and MS are friends again  (Read 6248 times)
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Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Posted 2004-04-02 11:19:45 »

Peace at last: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/36770.html

Consequences include:
Quote
Future Collaboration for Java and .NET Sun and Microsoft have agreed that they will work together to improve technical collaboration between their Java and .NET technologies.

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-04-02 12:06:11 »

Long article, but the technical details are important and worth a read when you can find the time.
Wow, I can't believe it!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline vrm

Junior Devvie




where I should sign ?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-04-02 12:06:33 »

new JGO project to come JD3D   Cool
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline vrm

Junior Devvie




where I should sign ?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-04-02 12:11:23 »

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-02SunAgreementPR.asp

DOH it's ture ..  Cry
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Devvie





« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-04-02 12:51:57 »

The not so good news is that another 10% of Sun staff will be departing.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-04-02 13:08:43 »

And there is also this related bit http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29168.html
about MS shipping Sun's JRE and making it part of Windows Update... should they lose a certain appeal... which I really hope they do..

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Devvie




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-04-02 13:37:46 »

I've been watching the internal feed here on one of the newsroom feeds I'm filtering in and watching the press conference with Ballmer and McNeally (after the camera is off) has been interesting. The more I watch, the more i'm convinced that McNeally really needs to go. Through much of the conference he had this deer in the headlights look and off camera he's talking about his accounting problems which clearly Ballmer doesn't care about. If I hear him say "I'd rather have your problems" one more time I'm going to find out where they are and kick him in the teeth.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline jherber

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-04-02 15:12:02 »

Quote
The not so good news is that another 10% of Sun staff will be departing.


hate to see anyone lose their job (politician's aside), but i hope sun has not pink-slipped any java technology contributors.  anyone have the scoop on what departments had layoffs?
Offline NVaidya

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-04-02 16:25:37 »

The layoffs will be in all divisions and will continue thru' September  ...hmmm......

http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-5183848.html?tag=nefd_top

Gravity Sucks !
Offline JasonB

Junior Devvie





« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-04-02 17:49:27 »

Quote
The more I watch, the more i'm convinced that McNeally really needs to go.

You're kidding right?  You've just discovered that now?  Grin

I've seen some really asinine comments attributed to him in the past... the one about software not being important springs immediately to mind.  Can't find a reference to it, but I recall it annoying me at the time.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Devvie




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-04-02 19:54:44 »

Nah I've felt he needed to go for a long time (need some fresh blood at the helm) - but this was the first time I'd ever seen him in the 'raw' and came to that conclusion without any other context.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-04-02 22:08:30 »

Today is the greatest day for the future of Java gaming since P-code. IMHO.

The question now is how does this affect JOGL and OpenGL in general.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-04-03 00:41:31 »

Wow, that is a complete shock! Way to go EU anti-trust-guy!  This is just the tip of the iceberg if Microsofts truly wants to make amends for its anti-competitive ways though...
Offline Golthar

Junior Devvie




;)


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-04-03 13:39:41 »

Quote
Today is the greatest day for the future of Java gaming since P-code. IMHO.

The question now is how does this affect JOGL and OpenGL in general.


No it is not.

I have a bad feeling about Sun and Microsoft joining forces.
Think for a moment.

Both sides will share IP and work on some technologies, one mentioned was single sign on across platforms.
Now sorry for saying this, but what garantee do we have that Sun and MS won't lock these changes into Solaris and Windows only?

Who knows, Sun may decide to move Java to the great .NET platform and then what?
Both sides can decide to envoke their patents and force everybody to only use their products.

Sure things won't go this quick, but I'll believe it when I see it

come visit us: http://www.otf1337.com
Offline Jens

Senior Devvie




Java for games!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-04-04 08:14:39 »

Quote
Today is the greatest day for the future of Java gaming since P-code. IMHO.

The question now is how does this affect JOGL and OpenGL in general.


Where do you see the advantage for Java gaming? The advantage I see is that Windows may ship with Java again.

I'm very sceptical about the whole thing.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-04-04 21:09:20 »

Okay, IMO time.  Keep in mind that this is just m,y POV and NOT  in any way an official Sun staement.

Got that clear?

I think you do need to be careful in assigning TOO much importance to this event.  From where I sit we (a) gto a ncie hunk of cash from MSFT (biggest they've ever given anyone I believe) and (b) have basically cleared the impediments to wokring together.  How much we  DO work together I still think we need to wait and see on.

The differences still remain.  We are fundementally different kinds of companies.  MSFT runs on money.  Sun runs on religion.  That fundemental difference can lead to some very differing POVs.  I don't think anyone at Sun is naive enough to think that this suddenly makes MSFT our best buddy, it just clears the for the kind of more-friendly competetion we do with the likes of IBM. But we also know enough (I certainly hope) to watch our backs.

Inre management, you gusy missed the big story entirely.  Johnnathon Schwarz has just been made president and COO.  This makes him second only to Scott, the same role Zander had before he left.  Johnnathon previosuly ran software.  This is the  man who finally made a home unser his CTO (John Fowler) for the GTG.  Thats very promising for us in general.  It also says a lot about Sun's current views on the importance of sofwtare.

lastly, I just have to add that I think you need to give Scott a bit of a break.  He's called on to predict the future all the time and he won't always be right.  Remember it was IBM's founder, TJ Watson who said:

"I think the world market for computers is about 5."

Scott has always supported our efforts in the game space as best he could and without him we wouldn't be anywhere today.  I've foudn him to be a dynamic and caring leader who really udnerstands the contributions that indviduals make to a company.

Frankly, if Scott formed a new company and asked me tomorrow, I'd galdly go work directly for him.





Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-04-04 21:37:00 »

BTW

My other interpretation of events is that the CLR part of their strategy is failing.  They've realized that making a *good* Java-like system is neither cheap nor easy.  They are hoping therefor to be able to bring Java back in to suppor their .NET strategy.

Thsi is just my interpretation but if so then its nothing but good news for thsoe of you trying to deploy Java apps in an MSFT desktop environment....

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-04-05 06:00:05 »

Quote
BTW

My other interpretation of events is that the CLR part of their strategy is failing.  They've realized that making a *good* Java-like system is neither cheap nor easy.  They are hoping therefor to be able to bring Java back in to suppor their .NET strategy.


I'd be inclined to agree with this; MS doesn't normally do things like this unless some plank of their recent strategy has "failed" (in their opinion). One of their defining features is a willingness to do multi-million-dollar U-turns as soon as it becomes clear in reality that they were either wrong in the first place, or that the theory just doesn't seem to work in the marketplace.

And, of course, since the birth of .NET, Java has gained immensely in performance - particularly in networking - which probably makes it a much more attractive tool in their eyes.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-04-05 08:19:03 »

Jeff, sorry, but this deal is major f**kup, especially if, as you've put it,  Sun is religion driven. Just ask Rich.

I'm extremely sceptical. Although most of Sun guys repeat the same denial "we got 2B$ and lost nothing" mantra, this is a major blow to Sun's integrity and trustworthiness that some of us valued so much.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-04-05 11:32:08 »

Quote
this is a major blow to Sun's integrity and trustworthiness that some of us valued so much.

I have to disagree entirely.

Sun challenged Microsoft and won.  I do not see this as Sun selling out, whatsoever.  What did you expect the outcome of Sun's disagreements with Microsoft to be? Other than Microsoft having to pay more money, and requiring Microsoft to ship a modern, compliant JVM, I don't see how it could get much better.  And it seems like the compliant JVM will happen, though the wording of the articles I read make is sound like they are only required to ship their old 1.1 VM.

Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-04-05 11:42:13 »

Quote
though the wording of the articles I read make is sound like they are only required to ship their old 1.1 VM.


According to El reg in this article.

Quote
Microsoft Support for Java The companies have agreed that Microsoft may continue to provide product support for the Microsoft Java Virtual Machine that customers have deployed in Microsoft's products.


No mention of shipping a real JVM, or of shipping their own, just supporting custmers who have already deployed. What actually ends up happening is anyones guess, although my own thoughts is that MS will start to ship their own VM again in the next SP and it will still be 1.1 and broken.

Endolf

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-04-05 11:59:24 »

Quote


No mention of shipping a real JVM, or of shipping their own, just supporting custmers who have already deployed. What actually ends up happening is anyones guess, although my own thoughts is that MS will start to ship their own VM again in the next SP and it will still be 1.1 and broken.

Endolf


Just a guess, but... I suspect it means exactly what it says on the tin. MS are allowed to "support" their customers. If you read the details of the legal wranling at the time, you'd have noted that MS were actually forbidden from releasing bugfixes and patches to their JVM - or, at least, this was *their* claimed interpretation. I turned up at windows update and one day there was a JVM upgrade that could run apps the previous version couldn't, and the next week it was gone; I was no longer allowed to get the upgrade if I didn't have it already.

MS customers who had already decided to standardize on the MS JVM are screwed by something like this; being allowed to support them again (by continuing to release updates, develop the source, etc) is potentially a major boon for MS - although this is usually important to more service based companies (like integrators and consultancies).

But, as I said, that's just a guess..

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-04-05 12:08:44 »

Right, but I suspect (guess) that MS will support existing MS JVM users by shipping windows updates that update the existing MS JVM, which if you have XP, is there. What this means for windows 2003 or longhaul, is another issue, but I suspect that XP and bellow will be all MS JVMd again.

Like I said, it's just my theory. The actuall wording doesn't really say alot when it comes to the future deployment of it.

Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-04-05 12:19:25 »

Quote

I have to disagree entirely.

Sun challenged Microsoft and won.  I do not see this as Sun selling out, whatsoever.  What did you expect the outcome of Sun's disagreements with Microsoft to be? Other than Microsoft having to pay more money, and requiring Microsoft to ship a modern, compliant JVM, I don't see how it could get much better.  And it seems like the compliant JVM will happen, though the wording of the articles I read make is sound like they are only required to ship their old 1.1 VM.



Sun didn't won, Sun settled. Settlement has to please both sides. What did MS get?  Can you tell that from press releases?

Compliant MS VM will happen when hell freezes over. Java is EOL product at MS and they were given permission to support it (1.1) for some time more.

"It is mankind against MS" said Scot. That joke aside, huge patent money is a dangereous precedent (are you sure you aren't breaking some?). And Sun taking Windows CPP under MS terms also.  And  undermining EC decission, process which Sun started and left Real/other media/european consumers in cold.
It all seems very nice from business perspective (2B$ is lots of money), but that is not Sun I liked.


Btw, I'm not the only one little dissapointed with Sun-MS deal , it seems that  mr. Rich Green is not so satisfied with it either.  I just hope it is just him  taking all of it personal, and not some contract detail that we all don't know about.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-04-05 18:33:54 »

Personal Pov Only Agin.

Got That?


I'm not going to speculate on Rich's perspectives or motivations, particualrly as he's no longer at Sun.  Keep in mind though that he was hired to help fight MSFT and I'm sure he had higher hopes.

We all had higher hopes. Keep in mind that we *won* sweeping reforms for the industry under the Clinton administration.  Then MSFT put a whole lot of money into the Bush campaign. Bush won, and the justice department just dropped enforcement instead impopsing a rediculously minor settlement.

I had to be there when Scott looked at the company heartbroken and announced "today there is officially no justice in the united states."

I'm sorry but it was NOT his failing that let MSFT off the hook.  It was the president the american people elected that did it.  And there is nothing we could do about it.

Frankly, in the current climate, my opinion is that this is more then we could have hoped for:
(1) Sun gets something back in recognition of the grief MSFT caused.
(2) The web game folks arent left worrying if there will be ANY VM on Win32.
(3) This opens the door for other things, like the possability of MSFT shipping a modern VM. Before this agrement it was absolutely impossible.

So you can look at the glass as half empty if you wish, thats up to you.   But the big battle was lost the day Bush was elected.   Thats the reality of it.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline JasonB

Junior Devvie





« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-04-05 21:50:26 »

Quote
But the big battle was lost the day Bush was elected.

Hear hear!!

And:
http://atbash.net/blog/archives/000046.html
Offline Golthar

Junior Devvie




;)


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-04-06 05:21:12 »

But MS and Sun will be working together on the fields of Java and .NET
What will be our garantee that Java will survive?

Don't get me wrong, on the surface it looks like a win to me, but working together with MS will mean two things:
-No open source Java.. these hopes are now gone for good
-Microsoft has a way of embracing and extending technologies.

Let me expand on the last.
Sun and MS will be swapping patents and probably some tech around (like the single sign on technology).
What is to prevent Microsoft from withdrawing its technology and suing Sun into the ground the minute they have all they need?

come visit us: http://www.otf1337.com
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-04-06 05:46:30 »

Quote
Let me expand on the last.
Sun and MS will be swapping patents and probably some tech around (like the single sign on technology).
What is to prevent Microsoft from withdrawing its technology and suing Sun into the ground the minute they have all they need?


Answer, the agreement.  Thats what a patent swap is all about.  We now have legal contractual rights to each others patents.

In the end, thats all a contract really is-- a legally enforceable agreemnt not to sue each other over specific thinsg laid out in that contract.



Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-04-06 06:51:22 »

Quote
 It was the president the american people elected that did it.

Surely the president that the american Supreme Court elected?

The american people elected Gore...
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-04-06 08:56:16 »

Quote



Frankly, in the current climate, my opinion is that this is more then we could have hoped for:
(1) Sun gets something back in recognition of the grief MSFT caused.


That part is OK when covered with that 700 mil. $. 900 +350 other is what is making me nervous.

Quote

(2) The web game folks arent left worrying if there will be ANY VM on Win32.


Not so sure I like that one.  MS Java is a dead end.

Quote

(3) This opens the door for other things, like the possability of MSFT shipping a modern VM. Before this agrement it was absolutely impossible.


This is something that won't happen. A little richer Java on .Net might, but I doubt that one too.

Quote

So you can look at the glass as half empty if you wish, thats up to you.   But the big battle was lost the day Bush was elected.   Thats the reality of it.


Nothing is ever lost, everything can be changed.

I still think this deal in this current climate is completely wrong. Bush did some damage, but there is mounting pressure on MS even because of that fiasco. They are seen as a huge theat virtually everywhere now (which wasn't the case a few years back when only Scot shouted), and their throwing of billions to patch some problems is additionaly irritating people.  Sun will go playing "man in the middle", which won't work in current polarised climate, and you will loose your identity in that process.  I think a new pragmatic managment will find U-turning religion driven workforce and ESPECIALLY supportes extremely hard.  I sure hope I'm wrong, because like(d) "Sun's way", but next 2 or 3 quarters be more revealing.
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