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  What do you get out of game development?  (Read 8589 times)
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Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Posted 2004-04-01 17:31:56 »

Sorry, this is probably a bit of a personal rant and its probably directly related to whether its a profession or a hobby. I get a fair bit of stick for not finishing games, but for me its not always about finishing the game..

What about you?

Kev

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-04-01 18:51:43 »

Quote
Sorry, this is probably a bit of a personal rant and its probably directly related to whether its a profession or a hobby. I get a fair bit of stick for not finishing games, but for me its not always about finishing the game..

What about you?

Kev


For the record, I reckon you deny the world some great games my friend Grin. If I thought your philosophy might change, I'd certainly recommend you to move into pro games dev. But I do know a couple of people who were in a similar position and chose to remain in their much-better paid (albeit miserable and depressing) investment-banking IT jobs for the rest of their career, and are sitting on big wads of cash right now, and they certainly don't look unhappy from where I'm sitting!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 368
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-04-01 20:14:23 »

I never make any money, and it's rather more stress than fun quite a lot of the time, and I usually don't finish, hardly anyone likes the end result, but I always learn something*!

Cas Smiley

* That I should have been a writer, not a programmer

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline SpuTTer

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Lazy Middle Class Intellectual


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-04-01 21:14:28 »

I consider myself similar to Kev. I rarely finish, but I always learn something. I usually have fun of course also Smiley

Sacramento Volleyball
"Whitty phrase goes here."
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-04-04 14:08:23 »

Quote

If I thought your philosophy might change, I'd certainly recommend you to move into pro games dev. But I do know a couple of people who were in a similar position and chose to remain in their much-better paid (albeit miserable and depressing) investment-banking IT jobs for the rest of their career, and are sitting on big wads of cash right now, and they certainly don't look unhappy from where I'm sitting!


Hey that sounds just like me! Well, apart from the huge wads of cash. Sad

Kev

Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-04-04 14:08:49 »

I've never finished anything Smiley, but it's always fun, and learning something new is kinda the point of it, learning is fun to me Smiley (as long as it is something interesting)

Endolf

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-04-06 14:45:45 »

Quote
I never make any money, and it's rather more stress than fun quite a lot of the time, and I usually don't finish, hardly anyone likes the end result, but I always learn something*!

Cas Smiley

* That I should have been a writer, not a programmer


Heh, maybe you should be both :-)

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-04-10 12:44:07 »

>I get a fair bit of stick for not finishing games

The techdemo syndrome Grin

It's so common. You think about something, you try it, it's fun... so fresh and new, then you are done and the parts wich were omitted are usually those, wich you've done a million times before.

But then again... what's wrong with doing those 5% extra stuff? Remove some crap, a bit cleanup... and then it might be in the state were someone else (beginners or non-programmers) can pick it up. Or it might be even complete after that.

There is a big difference between "I made that wall" and "I build that house!" Wink

Well, I have tons of "techdemos" myself. Just picked up two of em some days ago and I'll just finish em. I really want to create something (almost heh) perfect - something complete - something wich is all mine, my way of game mechanics, my style Smiley

Oh... and Martian Madness. Maybe you could have made an jump'n'run maker out of it for non programmers (w/o any actual content)? (Just an idea)

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-04-10 13:14:25 »

Quote
>I get a fair bit of stick for not finishing games

The techdemo syndrome ;D

It's so common. You think about something, you try it, it's fun... so fresh and new, then you are done and the parts wich were omitted are usually those, wich you've done a million times before.

But then again... what's wrong with doing those 5% extra stuff?

Well, there's a nice rule of thumb which says "95% : 5%" and actually means it takes 95% of the development time to finish the game, not 5%. :-)

While your mentioned interesting tech parts are indeed diffcult (and I suck a lot at them), they make up the very smallest part of a complete game.
Putting all the small parts (*) toghether and having it run in a balanced way, that's the art.


(*) For example the graphics engine of a game is a very small part of it; this doesn't mean the engine was a trivial task but we've to see in its context.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-04-10 13:38:59 »

For me its more like I produce 5%, the game engine etc, then get bored. The other 95% of producing content/media/marketing get left. From a pure technical point of view thats the interesting bit done.

Since I don't do ego driven things by philosophy the benefit of finishing a game (of hobbiest standards) is only to the potential players. While, I'm sure its very selfish, I need to optimise what time I do get against the amount of enjoyment/learning I get out of tasks. If I was to finish everything I'd spend my life producing games for other people. Again, this sounds fairly selfish but I hope some of the bits and pieces are sorta useful to other folks.

I expect this would change when I find a game I both desperate to write and desperate to play. Don't get me wrong, every time I start a game I intend to finish, but attention spans are what attention spans... um, are.

I guess it would change also should I be earning a living from it. I don't see this happening in the future what with the UK games development market being on such an up Sad </sarcasm>

Maybe <insert current project here> will be the one,

Kev

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline MickeyB

Senior Member




my game will work, my game will work!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-04-10 13:54:01 »

I find I am among a group that is probably fairly large.  Like kev, I have about umpteen games that I have started, written a part of that was somewhat satisfying, then lose interest.  Sometimes its lack of time and in more cases than I care to admit, not enough knowledge/skill to code a certain important part, then it gets tabled.
I really, truly want to make a graphical mud(not so massively multiplayer fantasy adventure with dragons and gnomes and dwarves, etc...but everytime I start a game, it somehow becomes space/starship oriented.  Must be some of that childhood, want to be an astronaut or something!!

MickeyB

Current Project: http://www22.brinkster.com/mbowles/
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-04-10 14:00:52 »

Yea, I know that rule.

But I didn't ment reaching a totally perfect/polished state. Instead I just ment a playable state and/or a slightly refactored state (=the way it is right now minus the stuff wich is bs).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-04-10 14:12:36 »

Of course, this is why the first requirement of anyone wanting to work in the industry is "finish a game, any game. Even if the gameplay sucks" since that will put you a lightyear (approximately, I haven/t measured it Tongue) ahead of everyone else.

Even better if you can complete two games.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-04-10 14:57:00 »

Now there's a shame, cause I'd just about convinced myself that trying to find a games job might be worth the time..

Spose I should see about finishing something, would have to be when I'm working on Mini Adventure tho, the game that has no end Wink

Kev

Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-04-10 16:20:20 »

In case you love games I suggest not to go into the full-scale games industry. Try to do it as hobby and/or part-time (next to another job, to earn the funding).

In any case, finish the started game: there's nothing more fulfilling than a completed work (you'll still learn very much).
(Like others stated, this is also a good reference, just in case you should dare to enter the full-scale games industry one day...)

The (very small) apps and (very small) game(s) I write in my spare time make me a million times more happy and fulfilled compared to the business work - well, you're your own boss (*), choose your favourite language (Java!) and your favourite theme, timetable, etc. Also, whenever you encounter a (technical) problem you have got as much time to dig into as you need. Well, lovely.
My ultimate goal will be to have a part-time job for the funding (ideally not a computer related one so your health will say thank you) and to use the "more spare time" to write games. Independent games.

OK, now time again to go Easter. Have a nice fest!


(*) Suppose you're married (with children), well, then there are several bosses... We all know this from ... Al Bundy? ;-)
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-04-11 06:32:16 »

Oh and Kevin... selfish? Absolutly not.

It's your spare time - it's up to you what you do with it Smiley

I just think it's a bit... hm... sad to leave a piece of technology in a state were it isn't any usefull. You don't like producing tons of content? Well, that's fine.

Maybe someone else likes doing that and/or levels, writing dialoges etc. It's for sure something I would have loved when I was younger. My bro and me often talked about doing levels for mario etc, but there weren't any possibilities to do so.

Then there was Doom and DoomEd, but it was way to complicated. However, we managed building some (ultra ugly) levels. They weren't fun or anything, but we were damn proud nontheless Wink

[Even if you leveleditor sucks there will be people trying everything to get it working]

Getting something into a playable state can yield really nice feedback. Putting yourself into a positive-feedback-loop is one of the best things wich can happen. TinyRivers for example was whipped rather fast together. Getting it into somewhat playable wasn't that hard either (since it's a puzzle game heh). There were about 100-200 people who played it and I got lot's of nice feedback. There were also guys wich played it for hours and got insane highscores (like 0:27'xxx Shocked).

Really. It's great. You shouldn't miss that (always) Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-04-11 08:41:35 »

Most everything I write gets to "playable" buts it a big jump to "complete" Sad

Kev

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-04-11 09:18:56 »

Quote
Most everything I write gets to "playable" buts it a big jump to "complete" Sad


It doesn't necessarly need to be a complete full blown game.

That mini adventure thingy you are doing for example. It would be in a usefull state, if non programmers could plug content into it.

You know... the most simple way with predefined directories. Maybe somthing like "scripts" (for the xml files), "graphics" (for y'know) and maybe "sounds" and "midi". If any xml file is referred the game looks in the scripts dir, for graphics the graphics dir, wav/au/aiff/sou -> sounds and so on.

Add a little example and editor thingies (wich you will have by that time anyways) et voila - something usefull. It's not a complete game, but it's something wich could be turned into a complete game by almost everyone else Smiley

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-04-11 10:46:34 »

In that case, I have no problems Wink Everything that gets public is always free source (note: not open source) and I always write editors first. For instance, martian madness source/editor/content is available publically. I just don't happen to publicise it..

The next problem after you've released your block of code + editor + test content is that you then proceed to get requests for features and support even tho you've taken the step to go out and do something more interesting instead (remember "Why don't you?"). I suspect its my problem but I hate saying no to support/help requests.

EDIT: Hey, I remember TinyRivers, it was neat! You fancy putting a description together and submitting it to the Java Games Foundry page? (http://grexengine.com/sections/externalgames/)

Kev

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-04-11 11:50:56 »

>I suspect its my problem but I hate saying no to support/help requests.

Just put this kind of stuff into your readme (it's from freelunchdesign's Operation Spacehog level editor)
Quote

*********** DISCLAIMER
                 
 I do not accept responsibility for any effects, adverse or otherwise,
 that this software may have on you, your computer, your sanity, your
 dog, or anything else that you can think of. Use it at your own risk.
 I have, however, never experienced any trouble with it.
[...]
 Q: This editor really sucks! And I don't understand a word of this
    crap you call help text.
 A: Too bad. I can't do anything to help you, this is all you get.


Haha. Ok maybe you would say it a bit nicer, but it does the trick Wink

>Hey, I remember TinyRivers, it was neat!

Thanks Smiley

>You fancy putting a description together and submitting it
>to the Java Games Foundry page?

Yea, I definitely will do that. However, I want to fix that flow glitch first and other minor things.

(500 posts! whoohooo!)

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline cyberyoyo

Junior Member




Java games funk


« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-01-11 14:22:10 »

Hey every time I quit a project I come closer to actually finish it!
My last project actually reached the stage of public Alpha (almost beta).
The best thing to do is to carefully plan your project, make a roadmap, divide the project in small tasks for each aspect of the game then do not leave a task unless it is completed.
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-08-10 04:42:22 »

I personally have a lot of fun typing in a bunch of crap that is meaningless to almost everyone and then having a beautiful game result.. I'm only 19 and pretty new to it all, compared to a lot of you guys, but I have a brain that can think the right way and I have some really cool ideas, so I think I'll keep at it.

My history:
- In seventh grade a made a text game called Fight! on the graphing calculator, all self-taught. I was hooked.
- I found WorldBuilder, an old program with a simple programming language used for making adventure games. B&W. Don't think I ever finished a real project on that.
- I got a copy of flash and started making cartoons, then taught myself action script and started to make games in that. Finished a couple, they're around on the internet.
- I took a Pascal and and a C class. Neither helped me learn anything at all. I hated those classes. Smiley
- I took an incredibly intensive Java class for 9 months, where I learned a lot. I ended up making my own multiplayer Tetris, a networked Mario (other players control Luigi or the enemies), a program to make simple animations that you can import into java projects, and a few other things. I never really dubbed any of those finished and haven't released them anywhere.
- Currently working on my first real game with my brother, a 2D SNES-style RPG. It's got innovative and interesting stuff in it like the ability to kill anyone in the game or have anyone join your team, and a comprehensive LevelBuilder that even has its own scripting language that compiles and can do most of the methods provided in the game. Fun fun.

Pretty much I just enjoy it a lot and it keeps escalating up and up. I am unhappy with Java2D and am trying to learn OpenGL and LWJGL so that I can use that instead, and maybe dive into the world of 3D. I would like to make games as a career, but I don't want to be poor off my ass either. We'll see what happens. Cheesy

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline PeterB

Junior Member





« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-09-04 01:00:15 »

Quote
What do you get out of game development?

It's the ability to 'create' that I like.  Several hundred lines of code later and you can have this really interesting scene that you can interact with. It's fabulous!


Vault101 / Mace The Game
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-09-04 18:47:51 »

ooh, never seen this thread...

Currently for me, is to put everything interesting that I always wanted to research/develop into a little melting pot and see where things go from there, im pretty much implementing everything I can think of that would be "cool to code", putting it into the game, and seeing what happens. Thats going to be my latest release, but that kind of thing is very temporary, you get the feeling, the project is over, bam, im bored again.

But long term projects are about the social factor for me, working with people I like, helping people with problems on the forums/irc or whatnot. Its just all rounded goodness...

And if I learn something along the way...bonus!  Smiley

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2005-09-05 03:10:59 »

I'd extend this to side projets in general.

I often start side projects in order to learn something new by doing.

SOmetimes I do smal lprojects to help other people by producing examples

Sometimes I do a porject because I really want a program that nooen else has written.

My current projet I hope to finish eventually, but its intend for two thinsg:
(1) Base of a demo for the game sevre project
(2) Open starting point for others to riff on

For what its worth, I got into the industry without having written any ganme code (though I had done CD-I which was closely related to platform development.)  You arent likely to get project lead on a game projet that waym, but there are other ways in.  I started in  tools.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Aramaz

Junior Member




Java Games Rock!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2005-09-26 12:03:34 »

Like most people here I've started alot of unfinished games. When I was younger I would start a lot of games with my brother, he drew all the graphics and I did the coding. He usually had a pretty short interest span in a game... and when we got to some boring parts of development, he'd get a new cool idea, draw some cool graphics for it... and then I'd be lured to leaving the ongoing project...

Well, it's been quite a few years since trying to write a game... and I felt something was missing in my life... :-)... so I decided to make games again... so currently I'm working on my first game in java (have done qbasic, vbasic, c++ before). And I must say coding in java is so much more fulfilling than the other languages I've used... and it's a great help to take part in these forums as well!

The current game I'm working on I have high hopes of finishing... it's already in a state where a lot of players can play against each other, and most people trying it thinks it's really fun... so I got a small bunch of supporters encouraging me to keep on developing... and that's a great help! :-) (I will put it up soon for testing here... but 1st I'll have to convert it from tcp to udp to make it possible for players to host.... and make it webstartable...)

I think it's alot more rewarding to do a game over the internet where you can meet the players yourself, than to make a single player game (of course you have to do those first to get some knowledge... but it's alot more rewarding to do multiplayer games!).

As some people have said here... I agree that it's the last 5 - 10 % that is the hardest to finish... but I think it can be a very important lesson to actually complete a game... so that's what I intend to do now.... From time to time I get a cool idea for another game... but I'll just make a note of it and save it someplace for the future... because now I really want to finish a game... :-)

Play XSW: www.xsw.se
Offline MasterOfDisaster

Junior Member




O_o


« Reply #26 - Posted 2005-11-01 14:38:59 »

personally, i always want to finish what i start because i can publish the stuff then and i'm always curious to see what people like and what not. this doesn't mean that i'm able to finish everything i start. too often i get stuck with an unresolvable problem. and sometimes i'm too impolite or too lazy to do research for days/weeks.

but development is always the best part of it. i learn with every game that i make. the last one was done using a framework-like setup that allows me to almost completely separate game logic from the stuff that you need for every game. and i have the game available as webstart app AND as an applet, which is cool because people are somewhat afraid of webstart games or just don't have the neccessary software installed...


Offline hvor2

Junior Member




Beyond mind, there is an awareness...


« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-11-07 10:10:42 »

Fun, fun , fun. Writing a game was my dream since my Commodorre 64. In that late 80's I did some poker games, ninja sprites, space ships, but I was simply too young to chew up assembler and to do something worthy. NOw, a year ago I discovered java, some 4 months ago I discovered lwjgl and openGL, I always learn something along the way when trying to write a game.  Since childhood I haven't do some real programming (tough faculty of science  Tongue), so now I got a job and have more time to enjoj with my game projects (don't tell my boss  Wink)
btw : is there any chance to earn some pocket money with java gaming (garagegames, for example)?(This big JRE is getting to my nerves!)  Does anyone have some experience with that? Or  should I found my own company...

Offline Tennie

Senior Newbie





« Reply #28 - Posted 2007-03-20 03:04:06 »

Learning and discipline.

Once I start coding I get really into it; doesn't matter if it's a game or not. A game, like all my other projects, draws me in.

Some people become relaxed and/or feel at peace with themselves/the universe because they smoke, pray, or meditate. Me, I code.

Some people become relaxed and/or feel at peace with themselves/the universe because they smoke, pray, or meditate. Me, I code.
Offline BloodRain

Junior Member





« Reply #29 - Posted 2007-03-20 19:43:28 »

I'm just 17 so it's definitely just a hobby.I think you guys should try translating your games into J2ME if you want to get some money.The syntax is almost the same and I saw 4k games that were lot better than commercial mobile phone games. Wink
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