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  Java on Sony Playstation(R) 2  (Read 3056 times)
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Offline dleskov

Senior Devvie


Medals: 10



« Posted 2004-03-30 08:49:55 »

We have received a few inquires recently, including through these forums, concerning the possibility of retargeting our ahead-of-time Java compiler to cross compile to Sony PlayStation(R)2.

We had no such short-term plans, but I have nevertheless contacted Sony Tools and Middleware Licensing Group to find out if, from their perspective, there is any interest in the PS2 developer community in having the Java platform available on PS2, and how we should go about retargeting to PS2.

The answers are as follows:

1. Sony Tools and Middleware is not aware of any interest in Java availability for PS2 from the game developer community.

To tell Sony T&M that you want Java on PS2, please visit their Web site: http://www.tmstation.scei.co.jp/

2. If we want to make a development tool for PS2, we should buy the Tools and Middleware license. The price for a three-year license (set in Japanese Yens) translates to about $11,800 at today's rate.

The costs of licensing and development rule out for us the creation of a Java to PS2 native code cross-compiler on our own. Unless a partner emerges willing to invest in its development and marketing, there will be no such tool available from us in the short- to mid-term future.

Offline vrm

Junior Devvie




where I should sign ?


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-03-30 09:27:45 »

sound pretty expensive, I wonder how big is the market for such tools
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-03-30 09:38:59 »

The extremely high price, the way console companies derive profit from this, and the effect it has on "original" titles from indie developers have been extensively debated elsewhere Smiley.

Personally, AFAICS "java-on-PS2" is a killer app which could lead fairly rapidly to a JVM-on-PS2. For so many commercial studios the biggest problem with java (once you've educated them about what it's *really* like) seems to be that you can't use it on consoles Sad.

My guess is that the reason Sony has seen no demand is because everyone knew it wasn't availalble, so never asked. Well, duh!

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Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


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« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-03-30 11:12:26 »

XBox might be a better bet anyway.

Cas Smiley

Offline JasonB

Junior Devvie





« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-03-30 17:53:29 »

It's one of those horrible chicken and egg situations really, isn't it.  No demand, so no Java <--> but no Java, so no demand.

Considering $11K is "chicken feed" to both Sony and Sun, wouldn't it be nice if they divided the cost of the license between the two of them and funded an 'experiment' to see if the platform was available, there might suddenly be a market for it.


Quote
XBox might be a better bet anyway.

Yuck.  Anyway, I've got a PS2 and a Gamecube so I'd prefer one of them.  Tongue
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-03-30 21:11:48 »

What processor does a PS2 use?  Generating code for such a processor is something that can be started on without any developer package from Sony.   Then you can scour the net for details about the PS2 architecture to try to get an idea of what is needed to glue the code to the system services (I/O, graphics).  That's where the dev kit is needed, but how much would it take to get something running?  I mean people have Linux running on PS2 right?  Surely there is info to be gained from those people to help get started.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-03-31 02:34:47 »

The only PS2 Linux I know of comes from Sony, and the detailsof their hardware are encapsulated in drivers the source of which is *not*contained in their distribution.

I've been udner Sony NDA so i have to be careful what I say. A good general intro to the hardware though was posted in Tom's Hardware.

In general this would be hard to do without Sony docs and a dev station to test on Sad

As for demand , I've heard other thinsg from some Sony folks, I suspect it depends  on who you happen to talk to.




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Offline dleskov

Senior Devvie


Medals: 10



« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-03-31 03:54:12 »

In fact, $11K is just a small fraction of the total licensing, development and marketing costs. One would have to license J2SE or J2ME CDC from Sun in order to port Java to PS2 or any other platform. An annual royalty-free J2SE license used to cost $50K two years ago. (J2ME and J2EE are licensed on royalty basis.)

We have quality enginnering force available that is capable of porting Sun JRE to PS2 and of retargeting our compiler to PS2. We could easily pay for the Sony T&M license, but we are unable to finance the entire effort - porting, development, Java licensing, and esp. marketing.

The ideal solution would therefore be that Sony licenses Java from Sun, ports it to PS2 (or outsources porting to us or some other JVM experts), and makes it available to game developers at no cost.  The question now is how to make Sony do that. Smiley

Perhaps the best way to persuade them is to make a couple PC game bestsellers in Java?

Offline Bombadil

Senior Devvie





« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-03-31 05:35:10 »

Quote
Perhaps the best way to persuade them is to make a couple PC game bestsellers in Java?

Yes. :-)

The possibility to be able to port a Java game to a PS2 would be very nice.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-03-31 07:34:22 »

Quote
Perhaps the best way to persuade them is to make a couple PC game bestsellers in Java?

I've been sorta hinting for a while to Chris if he could get me some "sponsorship" I'd write him a game to make Sun proud. Very, very proud.

Cas Smiley

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Offline vrm

Junior Devvie




where I should sign ?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-03-31 08:59:45 »

well I don't think the CPU is an issue for java on PS2, but the memory could be
how much memory it got ?
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-03-31 12:01:30 »

A pathetic 32MB, and some of that's reserved for particular functions. At a push I could squeeze my game AF into it if I dropped it down to 8 and 16 bit textures and lowered the sound quality and did some very fine analysis of object lifecycles - provided that the code output by the JVM's jitter didn't use up significantly more than J2SE1.4 does.

Cas Smiley

Offline vrm

Junior Devvie




where I should sign ?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-04-01 09:02:46 »

with 32 MB Swing is out  Grin
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-04-01 09:34:05 »

One of the reasons I've always advocated ditching the whole Swing / AWT thing (which, let's face it, aren't going to work on PS2) and using the LWNO CARRIER

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-04-01 16:14:09 »

Actually , just FYI, we did an experiment with Shawn's Java3D shooter, JAMID (anyoneremember that?) and fit it in under 32K on a PC.

The big costw as NOT swing (or J3D). The big  cost
actually were the high-res PC textures.  When we substituted appropriate console-level textures it all fit pretty nicely.


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Offline JasonB

Junior Devvie





« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-04-01 17:54:58 »

Quote
...provided that the code output by the JVM's jitter didn't use up significantly more than J2SE1.4 does.

That wouldn't be a problem if you were AOT compiling with JET though, right?
Offline vrm

Junior Devvie




where I should sign ?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-04-02 04:25:24 »

32 k of mem of class files, are you trying to fool us ? Grin
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-04-02 06:32:21 »

Actually one of the major, major memory hogs in Swing is that it creates a huge great 32-bit back buffer for double buffering. In truth it never needed to do double buffering; it should have just been careful not to paint grey over windows the moment they're resized Angry

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-04-05 13:48:24 »

Quote
it should have just been careful not to paint grey over windows the moment they're resized Angry

Cas Smiley


I had always assumed this was Windows doing it's thing... since I see that a lot in native apps as well.  Windows is pretty darn bad at doing "windows" after all.  And the Windows event processing and 'paint' message handling bites royally, etc.

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