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  That competition- what APIs precisely are allowed?  (Read 7827 times)
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Posted 2004-03-23 12:46:40 »

Question says it all. Await reply with arched eyebrow and straight face.

Cas Smiley

Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:00:35 »

Sun APIs ?  Grin Grin Grin
Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:07:59 »

I noticed this line in section 4 of the terms:

Quote

Any "modified" versions, "scripted" games, or any game that utilizes an external engine not written in Java programming language will be disqualified.


That would seem to disqualify LWJGL, JOGL, and Gage.  That can't be right, can it?

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:21:32 »

depend if you can say JNI Cish is java  Grin
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:24:10 »

hmmm, i guess that means ode is out too?  
Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:26:46 »

I didn't mean to start any kind of rumors, but the language there does seem to indicate that anything using JNI is out.  I was hoping to elicit a confirmation or refutal of that from someone official.

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:34:39 »

Quote
That would seem to disqualify LWJGL, JOGL, and Gage.

From the looks of it, kinda. Section 4 of the rules says that all APIs avalible from java.com java.sun.com and java.net are allowed. And it may or may not allow other 'approved' APIs (if I'm reading it right).

But as it stands, that does rule out LWJGL and Gage as far as I can tell. ODE is on java.net (isn't it?) so that should be ok. Likewise for Jogl, Joal, JInput and Xith.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-03-23 13:41:20 »

Hmm... there aren't many games written in "pure" Java.

Gage should be fine. The only native part is the timer wich isn't needed if you use 1.5.

But... Jogl is ok and lwjgl isnt? Damn obscure if you ask me.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-03-23 14:02:32 »

I await official confirmation of the farce.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-03-23 14:06:48 »

The spirit of the announcement seems to be "No thinly-disguised C++ games; no attempts to make java a "contributory" technology - these must be REAL java games that show off java-as-platform". (EDIT: which seems an excellent idea)

Given that, I'd have thought you could get things like LWJGL, Xith, etc approved with a nod. But...the GTG do have a history of ignoring the spirit of their own rules in favour of making life simpler for themselves, so... +1 for clarification, please!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-03-23 14:49:52 »

I hope it's not a farce, I'm not going to use JOGL ... Embarrassed
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-03-23 16:58:46 »

Quote
The spirit of the announcement seems to be "No thinly-disguised C++ games; no attempts to make java a "contributory" technology - these must be REAL java games that show off java-as-platform". (EDIT: which seems an excellent idea)

Of course. Otherwise people could use their HWJGL (Heavy weight Jogl) which meant a game in C++ just being called by a Java wrapper. ;-)  What's on java.net is known to SUN however and so no cheating.

Quote
Given that, I'd have thought you could get things like LWJGL, Xith, etc approved with a nod. But...the GTG do have a history of ignoring the spirit of their own rules in favour of making life simpler for themselves, so... +1 for clarification, please!

When they quote:
Quote
4. Eligibility of Submissions. General: All games submitted to the Contest (the ?Game?) must be 100% Java technologies as available from Java.Com, Java.Sun.Com and Java.Net and may include any additional Java APIs found on those web properties.
it looks like all the core APIs (JOGL, JOAL, Jinput, etc) plus the other java.net projects like Odejava, Xith3d, etc. are allowed?

Anyway, the contest ist a good idea from SUN and helpers! Very nice. A pity they didn't announce it one year ago, so I would have had enough spare time to enter the contest, hehe. ;-)
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-03-23 18:31:26 »

If Sun end up saying that JOGL is allowed, and LWJGL isn't then I am going to explode - that would be so infinately lame. For better or worse, I think they should restrict the competition to Java 1.4.2  , no extensions at all.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-03-23 18:50:31 »

Quote
For better or worse, I think they should restrict the competition to Java 1.4.2  , no extensions at all.

No way.  We all know that to do a really impressive game we need to bind to better graphics APIs (and sound)... Sun knows it too, or JOGL wouldn't exist.

It makes NO sense to cripple the competition into a lame applet contest in a 320 by 200 window.

LWJGL should likely be included, but if it isn't it shouldn't cause much grief - they had to draw a clear line, and it is SO much easier for them to say the "CORE" APIs and java.net stuff are that line.

OpenGL is OpenGL after all.. so choosing LWJGL or JOGL  *for the purposes of this contest* shouldn't be a big deal.   The contest isn't about compiling with Jet, nor is it about download size or not touching AWT...  There are plenty of good reason to use LWJGL, but very few of them should prevent you from using JOGL and other core APIs for this contest and switching over to LWJGL for deployment with the "full" version of your game at a later date.

- Just to be clear though, yes I think LWJGL should be allowed.. but it isn't the end of the world if it isn't.

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-03-23 20:11:57 »

Quote
The contest isn't about compiling with Jet, nor is it about download size or not touching AWT...  There are plenty of good reason to use LWJGL...

True, but as a LWJGL dev I feel that JOGL is getting a free ride, which I think is a bit "unfair" (for lack of better words) just because they choose to be hosted on java.net whereas LWJGL is hosted on Sourceforge. What would happen if we suddenly used java.net as our host, would LWJGL then be allowed? The definition of allowed "extensions" is vague and contradictive, which is why I said 1.4.2 - annoying as that may be.

And what about all the other technologies not hosted at java.net? Surely being hosted by A or B shouldn't determine whether or not a technology is suitable for being used to build java games in a contest.

Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-03-23 20:19:23 »

Even if you ignore the fact that they allow libraries from "Java.Net", their testers' system requirements specify an OpenGL 1.3 compatible graphics card.  There's no reason to mention that unless at least one OpenGL binding is allowed - I reckon JOGL at least must be in there.  So thankfully it's not only restricted to Java2D on 1.4.2!

(Not that Java2D is bad at all - it's just not some people's API of choice)

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 121
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-03-23 20:30:47 »

IMHO (not that its worth much), if JOGL (and other "core" libraries) are allowed then it was be really non-community spirited of SUN to disallow LWJGL, JXInput, GAGE and any other binding.

Infact, it would be down right counter-community.

Kev

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-03-23 21:27:25 »

It'd be a major political mistake is what it'd be... but I don't care any more Smiley Just being the Bestest is good enough for me!

Cas Smiley

Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-03-23 21:44:05 »

Quote
Infact, it would be down right counter-community.


Well, I think the "community" status of this competition is still under discussion!  But that's fine - the main purpose of a competition such as this is to provide publicity for the host and the sponsors and to demonstrate what their technology can do - and judging by the amount of interest it's already garnered, I think they're all set to do very nicely out of this.

But maybe this isn't what people here were expecting, or not what they wanted to see?  Fine.  Let's keep discussing this compo and see where it takes us, and if there's room for a Ludum Dare-style Java competition (and if people want it) that's another discussion.

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-03-24 00:54:51 »

I sincerely hope the community API's such as LWJGL, JOGL, JOAL, Odejava and GAGE are allowed.  Since most people wouldn't write a game without using at least one of those, it's pretty foolish to ban them IMHO.

Will.

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-03-24 01:40:32 »

I'm sure they are allowed - but I'll ping a few folks and see if they can comment to clarify.

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Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
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Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-03-24 03:41:45 »

Quote
LWJGL should likely be included, but if it isn't it shouldn't cause much grief - they had to draw a clear line, and it is SO much easier for them to say the "CORE" API

That's the point. Good summing.
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-03-24 04:37:11 »

Quote
I'm sure they are allowed - but I'll ping a few folks and see if they can comment to clarify.

Cool, I'd actually like to hear the oppinion of the board about this issue. This competions is sponsored by Sun, and as sun is "backing" the community - with projects such as JGO - it would be entirely justifiable to get the boards "official" stance on this.

I the more I read about this stuff, the more furious I get. I have yet to get any sane reason for doing what they have done.

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-03-24 04:50:31 »

Quote

]LWJGL should likely be included, but if it isn't it shouldn't cause much grief - they had to draw a clear line, and it is SO much easier for them to say the "CORE" API
That's the point. Good summing.

Yes, easier as in ostrich!
Defining CORE api's to be something distrubuted by sun (j2xE) and then tag along some random stuff hosted by a random site is complete and utter crap!

So, for the sake of arguing, suppose I register lwjgl as a project on java.net you would then say it's all of a sudden allowable?

What sun has done, is to ignore a HUGE amount of community projects just because the choose NOT to be hosted by sun, crap crap crap I tell you.

If they wanted to do it PROPER they'd define what technologies that are allowed, NOT which site you may get the technology from! As they start out by saying that a technology should be PURE java I really think they're bending this several times around themselves to allow JOGL (or any other opengl binding) since it's not a pure java implementation.

ps. Out of curiosity, are there some problems with using JOGL with 1.4+ opengl since they don't allow it?

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-03-24 04:52:32 »

Hmm, I am getting a bit confused here...

Quote
Any "modified" versions, "scripted" games, or any
game that utilizes an external engine not written in
Java programming language will be disqualified.


Doesn't this sentence exclude jogl, ode and others? - or is a binding not considered as an engine?

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-03-24 04:57:09 »

actually, I'd like to emphasize this statement:
Quote
So, for the sake of arguing, suppose I register lwjgl as a project on java.net you would then say it's all of a sudden allowable?

If this is the case, I am off to register lwjgl as a project on java.net ...

as I see it (http://www.java.net/principles.html) I could just register LWJGL as a linking partner (http://www.java.net/linking.html) and LWJGL is allowable?

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-03-24 05:35:24 »

Registering at Java.Net would be great Smiley

Now, on to the business of what is allowed.  This contest is about this community and game developers finging their way to Java technologies.  Of course we are going to allow LWJGL and GAGE to be used.  These are popular technologies in this community and well represented here.  however, we reserve the right to exclude any APIs not hosted on one of our properties.

I think the reason is obvious Smiley

Thanks!

-ChrisM

P.S.  it will take us a little longer to respond due to the massive amount of work at GDC Smiley

Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-03-24 05:38:00 »

Calm, peace, tranquility. Wink

Quote
Cool, I'd actually like to hear the oppinion of the board about this issue.

The bulletin board, or the elected community board?  While the elected board's observations would be interesting, I don't think they can really have a say in things - just because Sun sponsors the contest and Sun sponsors the board doesn't imply any other connection.

Quote
What sun has done, is to ignore a HUGE amount of community projects just because the choose NOT to be hosted by sun, crap crap crap I tell you.

No, I really don't think there's any maliciousness intended here.  I expect they'll either come back with a "Yes, of course LWJGL is allowed" or a "Whoops, didn't think about that, sorry".  This is just a typical Sun balls-up.  You must be used to them by now, eh? Grin

Quote
ps. Out of curiosity, are there some problems with using JOGL with 1.4+ opengl since they don't allow it?

No, not at all.  It's just reasonable to suppose that 1.3 is widely-deployed on testers' machines, but 1.4 is too recent to be guaranteed.  As the rules state, you can actually target whatever platform you want, but if the testers don't have access to whatever it is it's your responsiblity to provide hardware for them.  Technology using a Flock of Birds might be nice, but unless you've got a few demo units you can ship to people, it's probably best avoided!

Quote
Doesn't this sentence exclude jogl, ode and others? - or is a binding not considered as an engine?

No, because "Java.Net" APIs have already been explicitely mentioned as acceptable elsewhere in the document.

Quote
If this is the case, I am off to register lwjgl as a project on java.net ...

Don't be too hasty, grasshopper!  LWJGL made the decision to stay off Java.Net for good reasons, and the current situation really doesn't warrant changing that.  As you realise, if the rubber-stamp of being hosted at Java.Net is all that's required, then it's a bogus requirement.  No point allowing that policy to persist without good reason - let's get an official word on what's going on.

Note well: As of this moment we've had no Sun input or explanation as to what's going on.  It's much more likely that this is an oversight or just a plain screw-up, and until we get an official response there's no point jumping to conclusions.




EDIT: Ah, and there we are! Wink

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-03-24 06:14:48 »

Quote

suppose I register lwjgl as a project on java.net

I think it would be a good idea anyway to register Lwjgl on Java.net, because java.net is a very central place, let's call it portal, to Java fans all over the world, in particular game interested ones. They're surely much more than registered with this forum. :-)

And yes, a binding is a binding and not an engine. ;-)

Aside this, Chris answered all questions... so Jogl, Lwjgl, etc are all allowed.
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-03-24 06:34:33 »

Quote
Registering at Java.Net would be great Smiley

Of course we are going to allow LWJGL and GAGE to be used.

Excellent, just the answer I wanted to hear! - and I have already registered LWJGL as a linking partner - I have added the icon to our new site, however I need to confirm some stuff about the icon size it's HUGE!) before we can become a "java.net partner".

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