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  Unity3D/2D  (Read 22373 times)
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Offline ziozio
« Reply #30 - Posted 2016-02-22 21:16:48 »

Your points on why it isn't shit are ineffective. Just because you define it as a good tool based on your own definition doesn't make it a good tool. We are talking about the functionality for extendability and redundancy.

Yeah, but your approach to this entire discussion is an effective way to get the thrown in Riven's soft, comfy room.

Find another thread to mislead. It's actually a good thread here until the last 2 people posting, including this one.

It is good, but only when you are not participating in it
Offline 20thCenturyBoy

Senior Devvie


Medals: 3


So much to learn, so little time.


« Reply #31 - Posted 2016-02-23 03:18:55 »

Firewatch is made with Unity, PC version gets 82% on Metacritic.
Developer was "working with Unity" to improve performance on PS4 and has released a patch which does that.


"I have never done unit testing and I don’t find it a very useful concept" - Jonathan Blow
Offline DrHalfway
« Reply #32 - Posted 2016-02-23 07:40:10 »

I'm in a love/hate relationship at the moment with C#

I've started to get used to the get; set; operators and use it more frequently in my code style.
I also love how you can overload the [] and other operators.

But honestly.. that's about it.

In all my years of programming, I've come to witness some the worst written code in C#. Thankfully all of it is from outside our company so its often a one-time affair. Still gives me nightmares.
Despite being in C# land for the past few years, I still find myself doing rapid prototyping/projects in Java.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Spasi
« Reply #33 - Posted 2016-02-23 09:58:00 »

Has anyone tried Project Rider? It's basically ReSharper in IntelliJ, I don't know how anything else could compete with that.
Offline Hydroque

JGO Coder


Medals: 25
Exp: 5 years


I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #34 - Posted 2016-02-23 10:31:39 »

Why is this a thread? The topic is toxic bullshit and you should be ashamed Hydroque.

You and one other person are the only toxic people here. Good bye.

Has anyone tried Project Rider? It's basically ReSharper in IntelliJ, I don't know how anything else could compete with that.

What is it?

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 952
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #35 - Posted 2016-02-23 10:57:02 »

No squabbling please! Despite trollbait there's value to be juiced from this thread.

Project Rider looks very interesting, mostly because IntelliJ is so good.

Cas Smiley

Offline Hydroque

JGO Coder


Medals: 25
Exp: 5 years


I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #36 - Posted 2016-02-23 13:23:24 »

I don't think Unity is for beginners and only for people who are very good at modeling and texturing (or rich...).

Reasons
  • Asset Store
  • Models cost money
  • Textures cost money
  • Modeling and Texturing is art

I wonder how texturing and modeling go hand and hand if you have a Java Engine versus their engine, meaning the time it takes to organize and tackle these projects. While you control model loading and texturing dynamically in Java Engines, Unity is very deterministic in what you use and how you can use them - for that all around support. But that is weighing portability versus extendability which is one of those no answer arguments of which is better.

If you integerated Unity with Blender then GG.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline ShadedVertex
« Reply #37 - Posted 2016-02-23 15:09:53 »

Unity was developed to target all audiences -- yes, that includes complete novices as well. Unity is for 3D development, but it is often used for 2D development as well.

Another thing I want to mention is that (I think NegativeZero mentioned this earlier) engines, libraries, APIs and even programming languages...they're supposed to be treated as tools. Unity isn't shit, Unity simply doesn't suit your needs and isn't the right tool for you. Game engines are also designed for different types of games. Creating an extremely simple 2D game in Unreal Engine would be like trying to cut bread with an electric power saw -- it works, but it makes no sense. Simultaneously, trying to create GTA V in JavaFX's 3D API would be like using a scalpel to try and cut down a tree. It makes no sense either. You seem to be under the delusion that certain programming languages are better than others, or that certain engines are better than others. This isn't true -- it is simply that every programming language is a tool suited for different tasks, and every API is also a tool suited for different purposes. It is a programmer's fatal flaw to think that one tool is better than the other. They're suited for different needs, so it's not about which is better; instead, it's about which is appropriate.
Offline ShadedVertex
« Reply #38 - Posted 2016-02-23 15:16:36 »

Your points have not been overlooked, Cero. I strongly see what you are talking about. In my time developing in Unity, I was never satisfied on the level I was working on. I want to communicate directly with the graphics card, not have some game maker do it for me. Idk what it is doing. Since learning OpenGL/AL, I've been happy knowing that all my stuff isn't shotty. Although, I need to understand OpenAL more becasue I am going to implement a shit ton of sound file formats loader library for Java. Then strongly ask for it to be featured with LWJGL's repository. There isn't any such good thing out there in Java for sound.

OpenGL development does not at all involve communicating "directly" with the graphics card. It is a low-level graphics library, but however low-level it is, it is completely different from communicating with the graphics card directly. You can go for an even more low-level API like Vulkan, or if you fancy Windows, you could make do with DX12. Or if you feel like making AMD a little happier, you could go for Mantle development (Vulkan is largely based on Mantle, so you might as well learn Vulkan).

Still, I respect the fact that you're trying to find out more about what's happening behind the scenes in commercial game engines. But there's a lot more than meets the eye, even when you're working with OpenGL. Continue trying to find out more, there's nothing wrong with that Tongue
Offline Hydroque

JGO Coder


Medals: 25
Exp: 5 years


I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #39 - Posted 2016-02-23 15:28:58 »

OpenGL development does not at all involve communicating "directly" with the graphics card.

I never said it did. Anyways, my point still stands that I like working close with things.

Here is my outlook on Java:
Thousands of libraries strung together by user's thousands of libraries which functions get isolated into smaller and smaller calls to functions until you come to the main which executes this monstrosity.
It's why I rather code lower ._. I trust OpenGL, as it's only extended to the point of being usable and with the latest schemes.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline KaiHH

JGO Kernel


Medals: 446



« Reply #40 - Posted 2016-02-23 16:05:32 »

Quote
Thousands of libraries strung together by user's thousands of libraries which functions get isolated into smaller and smaller calls to functions until you come to the main which executes this monstrosity.
You just perfectly outlined the best strategy to implement abstraction in an application, and that sentence could just as well have come from a text book on software design. Smiley, though probably phrased a bit differently.
This is _exactly_ the only way to structure a complex application and implement said application in a finite amount of time.
There is always a single highest-level main(), which always delegates to high-level functions, which then delegate to low-level functions (with arbitrary middle-level abstraction layers in between). This is the typical call tree found in EVERY software system, no matter what paradigm or language is being used. And those functions are typically packaged into libraries to ease deployment.
And it is _a good thing_, because otherwise you would not live long enough to finish any useful application.
Offline Grunnt

JGO Kernel


Medals: 143
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #41 - Posted 2016-02-23 16:46:11 »

In case anyone is insterested, I just saw that Godot 2.0 is released. Godot is an open source game engine and development environment somewhat like Unity, some say better than Unity when it comes to 2D. And of course its free and open source, so thats a big plus.
http://www.godotengine.org/article/godot-engine-reaches-2-0-stable

Offline sazkul7c1

Junior Newbie


Exp: 3 years



« Reply #42 - Posted 2016-02-23 17:11:12 »

I would say that in some corner cases Unity is useless. Sure it may provide a solution to a majority of problems, but when performance, for example, is the ultimate goal - you may lose.
Also the pipeline is a little bit weird and the code is bound to game objects - not always you would want to have this that way.

About Cities: Skylines - it's really impressive they did this with general purpose game engine.

In my place there's a saying: if something is for everything - it's actually for nothing (it's useless due to it's bloat).

This happens to be true to some degree.

I personally like doing things hand-crafted to the most fine detail, but there are also times, when I like things just out of the box.

More about Unity is that - if you start a project with it - you are bound to the engine. This makes you also bound to the producers because you are dealing with a software, which is proprietary.
This may feel uncomfortable.

But in the end the result matters, not the engine - if you made something that's fun and doesn't lag on every click/touch - you're done.
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #43 - Posted 2016-02-23 17:56:03 »

Unity performance might not be the best but it still probably better than most of the home brew engines. Unity use industry standard occlusion culling system Umbra which is really hard to match with your own solution. It's also has all sorts of Frustum culling, static/dynamic batching etc. On CPU side you might have bit more struggle.
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #44 - Posted 2016-02-23 17:57:31 »

I don't think Unity is for beginners and only for people who are very good at modeling and texturing (or rich...).

Reasons
  • Asset Store
  • Models cost money
  • Textures cost money
  • Modeling and Texturing is art

I wonder how texturing and modeling go hand and hand if you have a Java Engine versus their engine, meaning the time it takes to organize and tackle these projects. While you control model loading and texturing dynamically in Java Engines, Unity is very deterministic in what you use and how you can use them - for that all around support. But that is weighing portability versus extendability which is one of those no answer arguments of which is better.

If you integerated Unity with Blender then GG.

Programmers rarely can cope without artists no matter what the tool you use to make game.
Offline Grunnt

JGO Kernel


Medals: 143
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #45 - Posted 2016-02-23 18:48:43 »

But in the end the result matters, not the engine - if you made something that's fun and doesn't lag on every click/touch - you're done.

That's true indeed. I just noticed one of my favorite games (Nuclear Throne) is actually made using Game Maker. And it's really, really good. Not good as in look-at-my-awesome-engine-that-is-boring-as-hell-good but fun-good. Discussions like these usually boil down to viewpoints based on making fun games and those based on making awesome engines. Both are fine things to do.

Offline delt0r

JGO Wizard


Medals: 139
Exp: 18 years


Computers can do that?


« Reply #46 - Posted 2016-02-23 19:49:26 »

IMO far too many of us have wasted too long making engines and not games. My productivity output is measured in the games i release and how well they sell. Not how good or if anyone likes my code in that game.

And in other news i finally got Unity to work on 2 different computers, but simple hello world game only works on one >:| . Both jME and Unity import our art from blender about the same. Unity will be more "push button" for deployment, but well that is such a small thing so far down the road...

Unity is a bit of a standard. Getting a "job" later is easier if you used unity.

If unity doesn't work, your boned. Well with OS ones you can at least hack the crap out of it. In fact jME is quite well written, i was able to go over most of the source and understand it in less than a day.

In Unity you have to do thing the Unity way. For better or for worse.

Personally I don't see clear winners here. Given a set of parameters for 2 different projects, and any of the "free" engines could be your best choice.

But writing your own is *always* the wrong choice IMO. Oh and yea i have done it myself as well.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline thedanisaur

JGO Knight


Medals: 59



« Reply #47 - Posted 2016-02-23 19:54:55 »

@princec  I disagree, I have yet to see value in the thread. You can see numerous examples of unity not being "shit" with some quick searching (as well as it looking terrible). Anybody here can see what unity is and once you've worked with it for more than a few minutes can tell a number of pros and cons it has as a tool.

We don't need this topic, and we definitely don't need it presented in such a manner.

Every village needs an idiot Cool
Offline Husk

Senior Devvie


Medals: 20
Exp: 3 years


Want to learn everything.


« Reply #48 - Posted 2016-02-24 05:43:19 »

I've only dabbled with Unity really. I'm more interested in graphics and low level systems programming and so I've tried to avoid using it in the past. As time goes on, I've appreciated it more, even if I don't really use it.

What I appreciate...

- Low entry barrier.
- Excellent editor performance and UI.
- Broad range of assets available.
- Excellent documentation.
- Excellent and smooth content pipeline.

What I dislike mostly comes down to C#, class/OOP based languages, and component architectures (I need more experience here).

I would opt to learn UE4 instead of Unity if I could, but it's far too performance demanding, and it's interface seems incredibly bloated and space consuming.

Further than that, I would opt to code from scratch rather than use an engine. I personally value performance and flexibility over development time and ease.

Many others will hold more value on development efforts, and that's perfectly fine, in which case engines become a better tool. Many good games might not exist without those people.

My favourite Unity game at the moment is Block N Load.

I think the biggest impact on improving what we see could be made with the release of higher quality learning resources from experienced developers.

Many resources cover the same topics over and over again, rarely adding anything new. Many display blatantly poor programming practices. Many never get finished. Many just never answer the questions people are thinking.

Offline Oskuro

JGO Ninja


Medals: 73
Exp: 10 years


Coding in Style


« Reply #49 - Posted 2016-02-24 08:31:41 »

I've personally only dabbled superficially with Unity, so my opinion isn't backed up with experience.

I personally feel that, sometimes, using Unity can be overkill, in that certain games don't really need all the bells and whistles that Unity offers, and could possibly be better off using a different tool.

For example, if you are going to make a standard sprite-based JRPG, RPG-Maker is probably a better fit (haven't used it either though, so just using it as an example).

What really worries me, as has been mentioned by others, is to end up with Unity (or any other engine) being the "standard", and thus forcing the "unity way" into everything, specially if said standardization is based on popularity rather than usefulness (wouldn't surprise me if that's Unity's business plan).

As has been repeated from the start of the thread, Unity is just a tool and must be regarded as such.

But hey, just the opinion of someone without much experience anyway. Smiley

Offline Hydroque

JGO Coder


Medals: 25
Exp: 5 years


I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #50 - Posted 2016-02-25 02:24:40 »

This is _exactly_ the only way to structure a complex application and implement said application in a finite amount of time.
There is always a single highest-level main(), which always delegates to high-level functions, which then delegate to low-level functions (with arbitrary middle-level abstraction layers in between). This is the typical call tree...

With my experience, there just needs to be one standard library for windows which is fully extendable. That's why I love Lua so much. I don't want things to be compiled and obfuscated to the point of no return. I'd love an open source, readable OS in an editor mode - one that anyone can decompile at any time to change anything or implement new things.
That's a dream though.

You only need Java and Lua to be happy with everything a computer has to offer. I have yet another project I am going to do in the future. Probably once I am 40, like another project I want to do - make my own language using assembly to machine code. I actually have no idea how to do this as I stated elsewhere. I just know the theory of assembly.

I'll probably take a minimalist linux and study the hell out of it. As long as it fits my purposes, I am good.

It's about time we got a Lua driven OS. We've had python.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline SwampChicken
« Reply #51 - Posted 2016-02-25 06:44:56 »

Has anyone tried Project Rider? It's basically ReSharper in IntelliJ, I don't know how anything else could compete with that.

Thanks for the heads-up Spasi.
I thought this link was their CLion project but it wasn't.

Cheers!
Offline ii8

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #52 - Posted 2016-02-25 18:36:39 »

If someone wanna 3D engine, why you do not use JMonkeyEngine? Why do you want to switch to C# or so if you have engine in Java? Shocked
Offline Opiop
« Reply #53 - Posted 2016-02-25 19:24:12 »

If someone wanna 3D engine, why you do not use JMonkeyEngine? Why do you want to switch to C# or so if you have engine in Java? Shocked
Many people don't just know one language, "switching" usually isn't a problem because languages are fairly easy to pick up if you know what you're doing. Not to mention C# has some sweet syntactical sugar that I love using.

And I've never used JME, but if I had to guess it's probably not as powerful/complete as Unity.
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #54 - Posted 2016-02-25 20:21:51 »

If someone wanna 3D engine, why you do not use JMonkeyEngine? Why do you want to switch to C# or so if you have engine in Java? Shocked

You pick right tool to right problem. If you narrow your tool scope just to ones that use your flavor of the month language then you aren't really looking objectively.
Offline ii8

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #55 - Posted 2016-02-25 22:45:05 »

If someone wanna 3D engine, why you do not use JMonkeyEngine? Why do you want to switch to C# or so if you have engine in Java? Shocked
Many people don't just know one language, "switching" usually isn't a problem because languages are fairly easy to pick up if you know what you're doing. Not to mention C# has some sweet syntactical sugar that I love using.

And I've never used JME, but if I had to guess it's probably not as powerful/complete as Unity.

Syntax does not matter in programming, in general. I'm learning Java more than 4 years, but I can't say that I'm good in Java Platform. I will learn it many year. But I know a lot of programmers who know more than 4 programming languages. All of them can not create something serious or something  cool  for any platform which they know. Sad

Maybe your answer is the answer for my old question: "Why JGO is so poor for finished games"...

Anyway I agree about right tool for the right problem.

PS: A lot if us forget about one main thing - Unity used Mono, not C#. Please, keep it in mind.
Offline Opiop
« Reply #56 - Posted 2016-02-26 02:10:01 »

I didn't ask a question...
Offline Gornova
« Reply #57 - Posted 2016-04-11 07:14:57 »

My 2 cents on Unity2d after some tutorials:

- I really like pipeline: creating animations, handling sprite, importing assets.. simple and easy
- C# not a really problem. I'm a programmer, not only a Java programmer, I can use it (different thing is to master it!)
- strange solutions: sometimes tutorials make a great job, but I've found some problems in following them, mainly because with component architecture, every GameObject can have a script, or logic and in that "logic" I can handle everything. For me is more clear, for example, have Systems, and every system handle a component. I think is because I have to learn more on Unity2d
- webgl, android, ios exporter.. in this Unity2d is amazing!

Blog | Last game A droid story
Offline ii8

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #58 - Posted 2016-04-18 21:47:46 »

JFYI
https://twitter.com/mdblearnsunity
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 952
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #59 - Posted 2016-04-18 22:05:44 »

Haha, that's funny Smiley

Cas Smiley

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