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  What are the viable alternatives to Sourceforge?  (Read 17210 times)
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Offline gouessej
« Posted 2015-10-27 12:13:06 »

Hi

I started using Sourceforge in 2006, mainly to host my CVS repository. I didn't use it to host my website the very first years, I used multimania/lycos and tuxfamily. I currently use its bug tracker, my website is on it too, my Subversion repository too.

ublock blocks Sourceforge by default, I find this decision quite reasonable even though it's unfair in my particular case as my bundles aren't modified (yet) by Sourceforge. I know what happened to Gimp... I'd like to find a lasting solution. What are the other options?

I pay for my blog, it's ok for me, I don't expect anybody to work for me for free. If Sourceforge suggested me to pay 4 US dollars a month to host my project with no ad and no malware, I would accept.

Github is quite solid but there is still a corporation behind it (GitHub, Inc.), it can still modify its policy later, it's true for Bitbucket too.

There are two viable solutions on the long term in my humble opinion:
- find an hosting solution managed by an organization in which I would have some "power", an association, a cooperative
- self-hosting

The first solution doesn't give me the full control of the hosting but it is less painful to migrate to. However, the only cooperative I know doesn't provide a bug tracker, GIT, Subversion, ...
https://ouvaton.coop/

The second solution would potentially give me much more control but maybe I would have to spend a lot of time to setup a server. Yunohost is installed by default on the Internet brick but it uses Nginx whereas I prefer Apache HTTP Server and it provides only Wifi, no Ethernet.

Is there anything obvious that I'm forgetting?

There are numerous open source code hosting facilities.

ourproject is managed by a non profit organization but it's extremely slow...

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline Roquen

JGO Kernel


Medals: 518



« Reply #1 - Posted 2015-10-27 12:56:03 »

There's corporations behind many useful things.  Just use one (say GitHub) and if they make some policy change you don't like...move somewhere else.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #2 - Posted 2015-10-27 13:36:32 »

Hi

There's corporations behind many useful things.
There are some useful things not relying on the corporations (or only a very little) too, community-supported agriculture, the integral cooperative (thousands of members in Spain), ...

Just use one (say GitHub) and if they make some policy change you don't like...move somewhere else.
The website of my project has been moved from multimania/lycos to tuxfamily and then from tuxfamily to Sourceforge. I'm just fed up. Actually, Github would be an acceptable solution but moving my website every three years upsets me. That's why I will probably not move to another source code hosting facility similar to Sourceforge even though Github doesn't harm the projects as much as Sourceforge does (yet).

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline SHC
« Reply #3 - Posted 2015-10-27 13:45:02 »

I used to use Google code before, but since it's shutdown, I have been using GitHub and BitBucket. I use GitHub for any public projects and BitBucket for all the private ones (they offer free private repositories, unlimited). I feel that project discovery is more on GitHub than on BitBucket since it is more popular.

And for websites, I do like Jekyll but I don't use GitHub Pages as they make my website code public. Instead I'm managing my own local copy (using git with BitBucket private repository) and I'd push the pages to my server through FTP.

Offline Roquen

JGO Kernel


Medals: 518



« Reply #4 - Posted 2015-10-27 14:48:44 »

Most options are going to be much more work and most of those you'll end up handing some for-profit money.  Exceptions that come to mind are things like becoming a FSF project and hosted there or a university project.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #5 - Posted 2015-10-27 15:12:11 »

GitLab might be worth a look.  Still backed by a corporation, mind you, but the code is open!

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for (live) creative coding
Offline gouessej
« Reply #6 - Posted 2015-10-27 16:02:05 »

GitLab might be worth a look.  Still backed by a corporation, mind you, but the code is open!
The source code of Gitlab CE is under MIT license but Gitlab EE is proprietary. Gitweb and Gitolite with Yunohost allow to obtain something similar. It's possible to host Gitlab CE on a server.

Most options are going to be much more work and most of those you'll end up handing some for-profit money
I can get a VPN from an association that acts as a ISP. The only for-profit money will be given to the company selling the Internet brick if I choose this solution.

Exceptions that come to mind are things like becoming a FSF project and hosted there
I can't as I use a license with a NC clause for the artworks.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline elect

JGO Knight


Medals: 76



« Reply #7 - Posted 2015-10-27 16:08:23 »

@hosting solution

At the moment GitHub looks the most promising. It uses git, it has a nice interface and it is fast.

It lets you host websites too.

@self-hosting

Digital Ocean, you can have set up a server in few seconds and you can also install pre-setup applications. It is cheap, used a lot (that translates in a bigger community/tutorials) and quite transparent regarding the payment.


Personally, I'd go for GH, then if you feel the needing to have more, step up on self-hosting
Offline Roquen

JGO Kernel


Medals: 518



« Reply #8 - Posted 2015-10-27 16:25:51 »

Most options are going to be much more work and most of those you'll end up handing some for-profit money
I can get a VPN from an association that acts as a ISP. The only for-profit money will be given to the company selling the Internet brick if I choose this solution.
That route's going to be more work for you in the short term and a long odds gamble in the long term.  Think of it this way...you if go with some mainstream solution, some for-profit is effectively paying you for the privilege to host and promote your code.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #9 - Posted 2015-10-27 16:32:33 »

The source code of Gitlab CE is under MIT license but Gitlab EE is proprietary. Gitweb and Gitolite with Yunohost allow to obtain something similar. It's possible to host Gitlab CE on a server.

Yes, I know!  Wink  We're using GitLab's free SaaS hosting for private repos in my company.  What I meant was that you could get the ease of use of another SaaS provider, with the option to move to alternate / self-hosting etc. later if you feel you need to while keeping the same interface (assuming you don't need any EE features).

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for (live) creative coding
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gouessej
« Reply #10 - Posted 2015-10-27 16:32:49 »

That route's going to be more work for you in the short term and a long odds gamble in the long term. 
Yes, you're right, that's why I'm still hesitating but I planned to move my blog to my own hardware. I can do the both at the same time. It's politically more acceptable to me.

Think of it this way...you if go with some mainstream solution, some for-profit is effectively paying you for the privilege to host and promote your code.
If something comes "free of charge" from a for-profit organization, it means that I am the product or there is another way to make me or my users pay.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline nsigma
« Reply #11 - Posted 2015-10-27 16:41:54 »

If something comes "free of charge" from a for-profit organization, it means that I am the product or there is another way to make me or my users pay.

Or, there are benefits to the company of a wide user base with a small number buying support or premium services.  Or, they have other for-profit services that rely on the free one.  Neither of those scenarios mean that you are the product or that you or your users are paying.

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for (live) creative coding
Offline Riven
Administrator

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 1371
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #12 - Posted 2015-10-27 18:12:20 »

@nsigma: indeed, once you use a service you expand their community, which is valuable in itself. you might be able to answer questions others have, or simply promote the service by sharing your link to your repository/blog, which is advertisement. if 1% of their community is willing to pay for additional services, that tiny group can create a profit for the for-profit company.

if you are unwilling to support decent for-profit companies, you can roll your own, but... you'd only be supporting different for-profit companies: vastly under utilized server-hardware potentally manufactured under harsh/toxic conditions, that waste tons of electricity (due to idling) which supports the evil utility companies that pump up oil, raise sea levels on your behalf, and start conflics in unstable regions, all with your pocket money.

on topic: github Pointing

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Offline basil_

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 418
Exp: 13 years



« Reply #13 - Posted 2015-10-27 19:44:57 »

so .. we all setup SCM everywhere and save the world ?
Offline jonjava
« Reply #14 - Posted 2015-10-27 20:15:55 »

If something comes "free of charge" from a for-profit organization, it means that I am the product or there is another way to make me or my users pay.

Standard industry practice. So what? You have a pretty cynical view on it but in reality I'd say it's generally more of a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #15 - Posted 2015-10-27 21:15:41 »

Or, there are benefits to the company of a wide user base with a small number buying support or premium services.  Or, they have other for-profit services that rely on the free one.  Neither of those scenarios mean that you are the product or that you or your users are paying.
It just means that some other people pay for me, the price is hidden, I don't expect charity from the private sector and I'm not interested in being used as a lure especially when I know that the corporation liable for the source code hosting facility can drive its conditions of use more questionable to earn more money which is a bit what happened with Sourceforge.

@nsigma: indeed, once you use a service you expand their community, which is valuable in itself. you might be able to answer questions others have, or simply promote the service by sharing your link to your repository/blog, which is advertisement. if 1% of their community is willing to pay for additional services, that tiny group can create a profit for the for-profit company.
I agree with this part.

if you are unwilling to support decent for-profit companies, you can roll your own, but... you'd only be supporting different for-profit companies: vastly under utilized server-hardware potentally manufactured under harsh/toxic conditions, that waste tons of electricity (due to idling) which supports the evil utility companies that pump up oil, raise sea levels on your behalf, and start conflics in unstable regions, all with your pocket money.
It's possible to assemble an Internet brick by yourself and it's possible to obtain products not made of coltan coming from countries in conflicts as it's done for the Fairphone. Moreover, the Internet brick has a very low electric consumption. It's not perfect but in my humble opinion, it's better than using the servers of the GAFAM known to pollute a lot the main location in which they are. The fact that there is no fully satisfying solution doesn't mean that everything is equally problematic.

Standard industry practice. So what? You have a pretty cynical view on it but in reality I'd say it's generally more of a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one.
I know that it's a standard practice and I'm free to decide that I don't want to participate. I don't think that the numerous VLC and Gimp users infected by tons of badwares see this relationship as symbiotic.

so .. we all setup SCM everywhere and save the world ?
Well thought self-hosting is less resource consuming and less prone to censorship than the generalized use of centralized services controlled by the states and the imperialists. I wouldn't say that it saves the world but it helps to have a better control. Yunohost is an excellent solution to democratize self-hosting.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline Riven
Administrator

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 1371
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #16 - Posted 2015-10-27 22:48:35 »

Sourceforge used to be cool, maybe in ten years we'll say that github/yunohost/whatever 'used to be cool'. Who knows... we just have to accept that people change, websites/companies are taken over by greedy bastards, and... we'll just have to jump ship every once in a while. So be it.

But again, github.

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Offline nsigma
« Reply #17 - Posted 2015-10-27 22:50:06 »

It just means that some other people pay for me, the price is hidden, I don't expect charity from the private sector

There's a certain irony to you using Java (or Linux) if that bothers you!  Wink

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for (live) creative coding
Offline gouessej
« Reply #18 - Posted 2015-10-27 23:35:28 »

Sourceforge used to be cool, maybe in ten years we'll say that github/yunohost/whatever 'used to be cool'. Who knows... we just have to accept that people change, websites/companies are taken over by greedy bastards, and... we'll just have to jump ship every once in a while. So be it.

But again, github.
I don't want to have to jump ship every three years. I made a backup of my Subversion repository today with rsync. I accept that people change but why would I be forced to undergo the consequences of their decisions? I would have no other choice than jumping every once in a while if I was unable to setup a server by myself.

There's a certain irony to you using Java (or Linux) if that bothers you!  Wink
I have some objectives and there is the reality. I start from the reality and I reach my objectives progressively everyday. It means that currently I still have something to do and I'm not 100% consistent. I don't see any irony. GNU Hurd isn't ready for prime time as far as I know. I remove the states and the corporations from my paths step by step, it takes time, I can't succeed in a few days. It's the same for this trouble. I started using free softwares in 1999. The 2 next steps are free hardware and free bandwidth. The Internet brick uses an open board A20-OLinuXino-LIME2.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline elect

JGO Knight


Medals: 76



« Reply #19 - Posted 2015-10-28 07:38:38 »

I don't want to have to jump ship every three years.

Then stay on SF, Gouessej.

I also would not like to do that every x time, it's perfectly understandable, but life is made of compromises and priorities, if jumping the ship after three years is something you dislike more then staying on an old (objectively) platform such as SF then don't switch.

When this will be no more true, then you will be ready to jump on a new ship  Wink
Offline Roquen

JGO Kernel


Medals: 518



« Reply #20 - Posted 2015-10-28 08:39:41 »

The bottom line here is that until the "revolution" occurs and it's worldwide...there's going to be a chain of for-profits in your solution.  Instead of taking the rather naive/classic/everything is black or white communist view of all entities are either abusers or the abused...take a more pragmatic view.  In all relationships there's going to be points of disagreement and you maintain relations with those which you have some common ground agreement and no major disagreements.  Fighting against for-profits which are harmful to humanity is something I applaud, but they are frankly in the minority.

Quote
or there is another way to make me or my users pay.
You paying is having to take care of all of this yourself.  Your users paying is lower bandwidth and perhaps flaky service.  And you're both paying by having less exposure to potential users/contributors.

Quote
I don't want to have to jump ship every three years.
Again.  Yeah that sucks, but its much less opportunity cost than doing it yourself.  In your place I'd gamble on GitHub being reasonable for at least the next three years...and at whatever point (assuming it occurs) that GitHub gives you reason to move, there might be some easy solution that's politically acceptable for you that had been developed in the meantime.
Offline Phased
« Reply #21 - Posted 2015-10-28 09:15:07 »

I think the best solution may be one of the following:

Write your own repository hosting service, to ensure nothing will ever change.

Or for backing up code, print each page to paper.

Every company may change, so either choose the one that provides the best features and appeals to you the most, or write your own custom repository hosting service with the features you wish, to ensure you, as a user have control over the direction of the development for the tool.

Just because one paying customer doesn't want a company to change, doesn't mean they will listen to 1 out of their entire user base. And the other users may like the direction its heading, or not really care as long as there product is still great.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #22 - Posted 2015-10-28 09:41:07 »

On-topic :

What I didn't say before, because it had been said, but I'm 100% of the opinion that GitHub is the right answer at the moment for an open-source project, and that's as much about the community linking as code-management feature set.  I wouldn't host an open-source project of mine anywhere else at the moment.

Only if you want either the ability for free private repos or to self-host would I actually recommend GitLab.  I think the UI feature set is just as good - it's more about where other projects are.

BUT, the key thing in any of this in moving from Subversion to Git is to make the most of it being a distributed version control system.  Who says you need a canonical upstream?  JOGL does that right?  Run off a domain you control and link through to the services you wish to use when you're happy to use them.

Off-topic :

The bottom line here is that until the "revolution" occurs and it's worldwide...there's going to be a chain of for-profits in your solution.  Instead of taking the rather naive/classic/everything is black or white communist view of all entities are either abusers or the abused...take a more pragmatic view.  In all relationships there's going to be points of disagreement and you maintain relations with those which you have some common ground agreement and no major disagreements.  Fighting against for-profits which are harmful to humanity is something I applaud, but they are frankly in the minority.

Quite!  The problem with "revolution" is that it never begins with an "r"  Wink  Not to mention none of my hard-left leaning acquaintances has ever actually managed to live in line with their own viewpoint.  Julien and I have political views that are very different and yet quite similar - I'm quite a believer in free markets - one day I may live to actually see one!

Our hackspace used to meet in an activist space that had two posters next to each other, one promoting anarchy, the second wanting to save the National Health Service - ah, the irony.  Grin

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for (live) creative coding
Offline gouessej
« Reply #23 - Posted 2015-10-28 09:52:50 »

Then stay on SF, Gouessej.

I also would not like to do that every x time, it's perfectly understandable, but life is made of compromises and priorities, if jumping the ship after three years is something you dislike more then staying on an old (objectively) platform such as SF then don't switch.

When this will be no more true, then you will be ready to jump on a new ship  Wink
It's not a problem of being on an "old" platform. You completely miss the point. At first, ublock (a competitor of adblock and adblock plus) blocks Sourceforge which means that lots of people can't access my website without modifying the filter. Moreover, I strongly disagree with Sourceforge modifying the bundles to put any badware into it. I already had one very bad experience of badware under Windows 7 caused by a webmaster using my game to propagate badwares, it was difficult (even for me) to remove his craps and this isn't the kind of experience that I want to provide.

The bottom line here is that until the "revolution" occurs and it's worldwide...there's going to be a chain of for-profits in your solution.  Instead of taking the rather naive/classic/everything is black or white communist view of all entities are either abusers or the abused...take a more pragmatic view.  In all relationships there's going to be points of disagreement and you maintain relations with those which you have some common ground agreement and no major disagreements.  Fighting against for-profits which are harmful to humanity is something I applaud, but they are frankly in the minority.
I already had a pragmatic view. Otherwise, I wouldn't have used Sourceforge without complaining since 2006. I don't see why it would be "bad" to reduce the number of "for-profits" in my solution.

You paying is having to take care of all of this yourself.  Your users paying is lower bandwidth and perhaps flaky service.  And you're both paying by having less exposure to potential users/contributors.
I already had a low exposure to potential contributors anyway and I had only a very few users this year and last year except when I started providing some self-contained native application bundles.

Again.  Yeah that sucks, but its much less opportunity cost than doing it yourself.  In your place I'd gamble on GitHub being reasonable for at least the next three years...and at whatever point (assuming it occurs) that GitHub gives you reason to move, there might be some easy solution that's politically acceptable for you that had been developed in the meantime.
Self-hosting is viable to me. I can use my current Internet connection, the VPN would cost about 8 € a month and the Internet brick would cost about 80 €. I could go to an Install Party in Paris to be almost 100% to have a working solution in a few hours. This solution seems to be more and more attractive for me as time goes by.

I don't worry about the exposure as my current blog has received more than 300 000 visits and my previous blog received almost 900 000 Cheesy

Github is indeed a viable fallback solution, Gitlab too.

I think the best solution may be one of the following:

Write your own repository hosting service, to ensure nothing will ever change.

Or for backing up code, print each page to paper.

Every company may change, so either choose the one that provides the best features and appeals to you the most, or write your own custom repository hosting service with the features you wish, to ensure you, as a user have control over the direction of the development for the tool.

Just because one paying customer doesn't want a company to change, doesn't mean they will listen to 1 out of their entire user base. And the other users may like the direction its heading, or not really care as long as there product is still great.
I don't need a company to get a working Git repository. I don't need a company to have a working server except for the hardware. I suggested a deal to Sourceforge, I haven't had any reply yet, I'm preparing my migration. What's wrong with doing things by myself when it is viable? Gitolite isn't maintained by a company as far as I know. There are more and more things not provided only by companies.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline gouessej
« Reply #24 - Posted 2015-10-28 09:58:31 »

nsigma, I'm already preparing the migration to Git. You wrote that none of your hard-left leaning acquaintances has ever actually managed to live in line with their own viewpoint but it's a perspective, a set of objectives, the path is important and I get closer to my viewpoint everyday Cheesy

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline elect

JGO Knight


Medals: 76



« Reply #25 - Posted 2015-10-28 10:47:50 »

It's not a problem of being on an "old" platform. You completely miss the point. At first, ublock (a competitor of adblock and adblock plus) blocks Sourceforge which means that lots of people can't access my website without modifying the filter. Moreover, I strongly disagree with Sourceforge modifying the bundles to put any badware into it. I already had one very bad experience of badware under Windows 7 caused by a webmaster using my game to propagate badwares, it was difficult (even for me) to remove his craps and this isn't the kind of experience that I want to provide.

You are right, sorry, then substitute the reasons you dislike SF for, but don't miss mine.
Offline Roquen

JGO Kernel


Medals: 518



« Reply #26 - Posted 2015-10-28 11:35:10 »

I guess the bottom-line question to ask yourself:  Is drawing your line-in-the-sand today and little closer to your target worth the fact your making yourself an IT department...or can you spend your time better in some other way?
Offline basil_

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 418
Exp: 13 years



« Reply #27 - Posted 2015-10-28 12:07:01 »

.. like setting up https://www.scm-manager.org. out of the box git hg and svn.

renting a root server would become the next issue of dealing with money-greedy-companies but that is usually a much more stable and durable environment.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #28 - Posted 2015-10-28 12:48:55 »

I guess the bottom-line question to ask yourself:  Is drawing your line-in-the-sand today and little closer to your target worth the fact your making yourself an IT department...or can you spend your time better in some other way?
I think that there are some risks and that the migration to a self-hosted solution would take some time but don't you overreact by comparing self-hosting to making myself an IT department? Spending one or two months in migrating is acceptable to me, especially if I don't have to migrate every three years. I think that doing so wouldn't be a waste of time except if I totally fail, it would be helpful to show some people that we can regain control on computer science.

Moreover, there were more and more problems on Sourceforge, a lot of HTTP 500 errors (internal server error) when trying to commit, numerous failures when trying to upload the bundles onto the storage space, ...

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline gouessej
« Reply #29 - Posted 2015-10-28 16:06:10 »

I'll migrate to Git first. Then, I'll evaluate some solutions, maybe Github, Gitlab and scm-manager even though they might be used only as a fallback.

Several years ago, the commits done before importing a project into Github weren't visible after the import, is it still the case now?

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
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