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  the pro-linux args  (Read 4907 times)
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Offline javapunk

Senior Newbie





« Posted 2004-03-01 20:51:22 »

After "the anti-linux args" thread (It probably should have been the anti-linux desktop thread). I though it would be nice to see if anyone has something positive to say about linux. If you have any negative comments post in the so mentioned thread. I'll start of the thread.
The nicest part about linux for me is the configurablity. I have much more control over my system and desktop. It was very easy to set a cvs, ftp, webserver that is infinitely configurable.
I also find linux to be incredibly stable. I can run my computer without ever having to restart, reboot just to wipe out some obscure bug.
I also believe that unix programmers in general have better programming skills when it comes to system daemons.  Windows programmers seem to have problems writing daemon programs that run for all users (Windows packet writing software has been really bad but is improving).
Well that is my view of the world Wink

JavaPunk
Offline kevglass

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-03-02 04:23:48 »

So did you want to discuss or just praise linux blindly?

Kev

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-03-02 06:42:19 »

I can't think of anything nice to say about it Wink Except it's free.

Cas Smiley

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Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-03-02 07:04:44 »

/me thinks Cas wants to provoke another flamewar ;-)

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Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-03-02 07:26:47 »

Just to add something useful, here are some of the things, which are nice on Linux in my opinion: free (as in freedom), free (as in free beer), stable, scalable, secure (at least relative to Windows), good interoperability, good integration of free software, good scripting abilities, easy updates, future proof, offers choice, complete control over system, extremely configurable.

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Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Member




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-03-02 07:47:23 »

At least it is somewhat open. Compared to for example Sun Java and Microsoft Windows or any Microsoft compiler (Although, not everyone can contribute to the kernel).

It reduces vast amount of stupidity, because the lazy ones will not be able to use the good distros (debian, gentoo) and it also reduces ignorance of the operating system user. Some distros such as Mandrake and Fedora (bloated pieces of crap, imo) are more newbie friendly, but still viable solutions.

There is plenty of software availalbe. That is, software which is often better than Windows software. Considering the software is open, anyone can continue development. Linux is also perfect environment for Gnu Emacs, which in fact is the best Emacs ever also simultaniously being many other best things, ever.

Of course linux can have pitfalls. For example morons who install KDE without knowing that it is developed by 12 year-old morons. With the programming ability of an ape. However, good sollutions, such as Gnome can yield to awesome performance and hardware acceleration.

Open standards have other good sides, for example kOffice (KDE, omg!) lets you edit and create PDFs, currently not present in other bundle software.

The networking abilities of Linux are unquestionable. Whether it is better or worse than FreeBSD, is irrelevant as it is far more elegant and better solution compared to any Windows platform.

Linux in laptops is becoming a lot better. With the multitude of filesystems, a friend of mine prolonged his battery life about three hours by moving from Windows (lol) ntfs to another Linux specific filesystem, which is almost as fast, but requires less rpms.

The best thing of Linux, currently is that, it is pretty much retard free. People who want to install linux, want to understand how linux works and not just ask "HHEY WHERE DA MORRRPG CREATING TOOLS AT!?? YO PPPUaa!"

Also, its gnu. Cool

Oh yeah and it works with good C compilers. I don't know about Java. I haven't really thought about installing Java on my linux machines, because Java would probably break them. (As being Windows platform dependent: Sun wants to target masses, masses = windows, Sun wants to be like Microsoft, can't be -> bitterness.)
Online princec

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-03-02 08:50:33 »

Sun's Java implementation on Linux rocks.

Cas Smiley

Offline cfmdobbie

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-03-02 10:30:31 »

It's no secret; I like Linux.  I've never had the massive problems that other people have reported, indeed I've had many, many more problems with Windows.  But I think I'm the exception! Grin

What with C#/.NET fighting Java/J2EE for enterprise apps, I'm surprised Sun aren't more interested in Linux - it's a platform that their biggest rival has no control over, as opposed to one which they control utterly.  (I'm ignoring Sparc here - they operate in a different space.)  It remains to be seen what will happen to the Java Desktop System, but I hope Sun really concentrates on it and makes it the huge product it could be.

Many people bemoan Linux's poor graphics hardware support, but if Sun makes Looking Glass really popular, nVidia and ATI will rapidly improve their drivers and improve the installation thereof.  If the general public begin to take notice, other vendors will produce drivers as well.

There are areas in which Windows really excels at the moment, like Windows Update, exotic/cutting-edge hardware support, games, ease of use etc, but I think Linux will eventually get there.  I think Linux will still play catch-up for the foreseeable future as there's no guiding authority, but we'll see.

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-03-02 11:21:31 »

I demand competition in any market and free choice of your favourite OS, tools, apps, etc, so naturally I like the fact Linux is there and grows nicely. OpenSource software I use every day with pleasure. The day after TCPA I'll use Linux, FreeBSD or MacOSX anway.

The commercial Linux distribution named Lindows attracts the usual users out there. Haven't seen it in action but it looks nice and simple to use. What about Java games for it? Games aren't a big issue on Linux yet (!), but maybe Lindows is different because of its different user base?
Lindows invented this Click'nRun (CNR) system, so apprantly you (as a Lindows subscriber) can download software with a mouse click: free one and commercial one.
On http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_categories.php they list 518 games currently. There's titles like America's Army, Quake (II), and so on, but also many independent games like the funny ThinkTanks from Garagegames.

Any experiences with Lindows and (Java) games? Free and commercial ones...


PS: LindowsOS 4.0 comes with Java Version 1.4.1_02, is it SUN's ?
Offline cfmdobbie

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-03-02 12:03:30 »

Quote
The day after TCPA I'll use Linux, FreeBSD or MacOSX anway.


...if your hardware allows it! ;)

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Offline javapunk

Senior Newbie





« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-03-02 13:49:17 »

Quote
So did you want to discuss or just praise linux blindly?

Kev


I am trying to say if you want to flame blindly there is a place for that to Roll Eyes

JavaPunk
Online princec

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-03-02 14:17:24 »

Quote
Jens thinks Cas wants to provoke another flamewar

Hehe Smiley It's called "damning with faint praise".

Actually I think the latest 2.6 kernel appears to be a decent piece of engineering. But I despise all the GUIs, all the shells, all the filesystems, all the configuration tools, hardware support, most of the available software, etc.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-03-02 14:35:00 »

Quote
The commercial Linux distribution named Lindows attracts the usual users out there. Haven't seen it in action but it looks nice and simple to use. What about Java games for it? Games aren't a big issue on Linux yet (!), but maybe Lindows is different because of its different user base?
Lindows invented this Click'nRun (CNR) system, so apprantly you (as a Lindows subscriber) can download software with a mouse click: free one and commercial one.


Don't know if this is really a great invention (you didn't say this, but the Lindows people do). Lindows is just another Debian based distribution. If you click on the package probably "apt-get install $package" is executed (maybe with some eyecandy and surely without configuration). At least for me it's not worth paying $5/month for it. I wouldn't even use it, if it were free, because the commandline or other package management tools are usually faster and easier to use. I don't think Lindows is a choice, if you are already use Linux.

The good thing is that Lindows seems to fill a gap. Lindows makes a lot of choices for the users instead of letting them choose, so the user doesn't have to know anything. They make it easy to install commercial software by packagaging it. There are PCs with Lindows preconfigured that are usually cheaper than Windows PC. And they have a lot money they spend for improving Open Source projects.

I don't see any reason, why certain games should run under Lindows, which don't work elsewhere. See http://www.tuxgames.com/ for some commercial games.

Quote
PS: LindowsOS 4.0 comes with Java Version 1.4.1_02, is it SUN's ?


Blackdown always has Debian packages, so they probably take this one.

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Offline javapunk

Senior Newbie





« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-03-02 16:07:11 »

Quote

But I despise all the GUIs, all the shells, all the filesystems, all the configuration tools, hardware support, most of the available software, etc.

Cas Smiley

Well I despise the 8 (at least) different ways to do 3d with java Grin(ducks).
Come on, the java people are not that much better Wink

JavaPunk
Offline oNyx

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-03-02 23:55:30 »

Quote
[...]
The best thing of Linux, currently is that, it is pretty much retard free. People who want to install linux, want to understand how linux works and not just ask "HHEY WHERE DA MORRRPG CREATING TOOLS AT!?? YO PPPUaa!"
[...]


Hmyea... yawn Tongue

It's simple: people want to use their PC to do stuff, therefore they pay for the hardware, the software and install em. They do the stuff they have to do, the stuff they want to do, watch tv, talk with someone from the opposite sex, learn cooking/japanese/how to juggle 12 raw eggs... at at the very end of the list - just below "reading the bible" - you can see "reading man pages".

The way you put it is just plain silly. Do you know how your CPU works (in detail)? No? Well, you shouldn't use a PC at all then... you just have to be totally retarded (Roll Eyes). Or could you fix the electronics of your car with a soldering iron? No? Well, better don't drive then - you are a dangerous threat for your enviroment Smiley

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Offline Jeff

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-03-03 02:03:42 »

DISCALIMER: This is ONLY my personal opinion.  It does not necessarily agree with the opinions of my employer.

So to me the best thing about Linux is... its Unix for the masses.

Not that most of the masses want or need Unix BUT when I was a young man....   (putting on my grizzled old timer button and rarranging my false teeth) ...  Unix was only found at Universities and large corporations.  To run it took machiens costing upward of a million dollars and a Unix license (for anyone but a  university) ran in the tens of thousands of dollars.

And this was a shame because Unix is great for alot of R&D type things.  It was multi-tasking when PCs werent (and still multi-tasks better then windows), it supported Sockets when otehr OSes didn't (and still does that better then Windows too.)  A Unix YOU could get for FREE and install on a cheap computer was and still is revolutionary and I think we at Sun have a lot to thank Linux for in terms of making more then just back-end specialists and academics aware of what a Unix can do.

Would I run it as a desktop?  No. To be honest I hate X (what a thing for a Sun person to say).  Its over-kill and too dman expensive to run for a one-person machine with a with local frame buffer.  (OSX OTOH is a  brilliant Unix desktop  IMO.)  Would I run it as a commerical server? No.  Solaris is a better Unix for server work.

But would I give my KID a Linux desktop to learn on? Abso-friggin-lutely.  Would I put them in the schools for budding hackers to leanr on? Again absolutely.  Would i teach a CS course using them as the dev environment? In a minute.

Linux has been and IMO will continue to be very important.  But not as a real challenge to MSFT on the user's desktop or Solaris on the commerical back end.  I thin kthose are red herrings.  The only real contender besides MSFT for the consumer desktop is Apple and OSX and I applaud them for sticking to what has been a very hard path to tread.  On the back end, now that Linux HAS pushed the price of Soalris down to more ro less nothing, I don't see any real competition in the near term.  In teh far term, who knows.  Maybe IBM will suprise us with a  GOOD Unix some day Smiley  Lord knows they have the brain power if they ever really set out to use it in that way.

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Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-03-03 03:15:32 »

Quote
(..)So to me the best thing about Linux is... its Unix for the masses.
(..) because Unix is great for alot of R&D type things.  It was multi-tasking when PCs werent (and still multi-tasks better then windows), it supported Sockets when otehr OSes didn't (and still does that better then Windows too.)  A Unix YOU could get for FREE and install on a cheap computer was and still is revolutionary and I think we at Sun have a lot to thank Linux for in terms of making more then just back-end specialists and academics aware of what a Unix can do.

Nice explanation.

Quote
Would I run it as a desktop?  No. To be honest I hate X (what a thing for a Sun person to say).  Its over-kill and too dman expensive to run for a one-person machine with a with local frame buffer.  (OSX OTOH is a  brilliant Unix desktop  IMO.)

You've been the one who told us in a recent thread not to confuse the OS with the GUI! And you're right. So let's not do it again. :-)
There's no reason why in the future we won't see a brillant GUI for Linux (or polishing of an existing one), probably X-free and so on.
OS-X is an OpenSource Unix with a great GUI on its roof plus a bundle of nice apps, so yes, you can have Unix on the desktop.

OS-X won't compete with the MS market in the long term as long as you can't install MacOS-X on a standard PC hardware I'm afraid. However why should Apple do this? Use unstable hardware? Let's see.

Well, we're a Java community. One of the main purposes of Java is or at least has been to make the OS/platform beneath "unimportant"! Use the OS you like - the (Java) apps are the same! I know, we're not yet there, but one day maybe. For several developers it's already reality (say, your main tools for 90% of the working day was a Java editor, a Java IDE, a Java CVS, a Java UML, a Java IM, a Java Office, ...)

Quote
Would I run it as a commerical server? No.  Solaris is a better Unix for server work.

Many companies run Linux as commercial servers and their numbers increases. I'm not saying it's better than Solaris. For many companies there's this option: using Windows as server or using Linux as server. Many choose Linux.
Offline sugarshark

Junior Member




Sugar to the sharks.


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-03-03 09:19:57 »

Quote

Would I run it as a desktop?  No. To be honest I hate X (what a thing for a Sun person to say).  Its over-kill and too dman expensive to run for a one-person machine with a with local frame buffer.  (OSX OTOH is a  brilliant Unix desktop  IMO.)  

I cannot understand all this X bashing. I absolutly love it. Even if it's quite a resource hog for running emacs, a browser and some xterms. But hey, memory is cheap and I even boot KDE just to have a pager and the taskbar.

Of course, the client server architecture and network transparency of X comes with a price, but it's the best feature of X. Imagine you are forced to use some crappy GUI like windows at work. Horror! Gone is your productivity! But you just need an Xserver for win32 and a remote login to a unix box to have your familiar desktop and all the apps you are used to back :-)


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Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-03-03 10:20:26 »

I don't understand the critcism of X in this context. Even if you don't like some of its features, these are just technical details. It should not stop you from using Linux (if you don't have other reasons not to use it). Btw. currently XFree has some license problems (new license is considered to be not GPL-compatible), so it's possible that there will be other X-Server implementations or completely new implementations in the future. See http://freedesktop.org/ and http://www.y-windows.org/ for more information.

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-03-03 10:46:29 »

This *is* the pro-linux thread Smiley so  I'd like to hear someone say something good about X? So far, all that's been said is that it *is* good, with no justification (which is contrary to my long and painful experiences Sad)

NB the remote server stuff seems IME to be useless to (and not used by) the vast majority of users. Most people seem to find VNC (or one of it's more advanced derivatives such as Tight) to do everything they would have wanted from the remote X, but about a thousand times easier to setup and to understand. It's simple - I run VNC and I get a view on the desktop of the machine. I can have a private view if necessary, or I can have the view that's actually displayed on the monitor (last time I used remote-X stuff this wasn't an option?) which obviously can be fantastically useful.

I can also connect to any OS - windows, unix, etc - with the same simple system, the same client, the same GUI.

Since you can use VNC in real time even over a dialup connection, I'm wondering what's left to make the X remote features anything more than a gimmick these days?

PS I only chose VNC for the above because it's free; as far back as 10 years ago we were using the commercial equivalents for remote windows admin and they were fine. I guess these days PCAnywhere et al are considerably more advanced?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-03-03 11:03:27 »

Quote
I don't understand the critcism of X in this context.
...
http://www.y-windows.org/ for more information.


Sadly, Y retains the remote-server concept of X. Why? Indeed, Y? (boom, boom!). This appears to be a niche-only use nowadays, mainliy for admins of headless servers. Maybe the design of Y includes this without being burdensome, but I recall continuing support for this feature of X has created enough headaches for XFree devs that a significant number want(ed) it dropped.

The why Y doc (sorry) does have a neat brief overview of what's wrong with X (feel free to follow the link to the site and find and read the PDF).

What is not mentioned is that IIRC none of the original creators of X-Windows saw it as being particularly good (it was a hack by MIT to be able to use multiple proprietary systems from one GUI), and there's little reason to suppose it has magically become any good. X was a compromise and a political ball game  IIRC (I'd appreciate it if anyone who was around at the time could weigh in with some detailed info?) as much as it was an attempt to create a standard windowing system. Vendors didn't want to interoperate, they wanted people to use their own WS because that way they made money, e.g. NeWS had to be licensed from Sun.

@Jeff: I thought that Sun dropped NeWS (in several ways technically superior) in order to support X, so that historically Sun ought to be anti-X? Huh

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-03-03 11:10:26 »

And I found this, which is so eloqently put I just had to include it Smiley

1  
2  
3  
4  
5  
6  
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 88 01:52:55 EST
To: NeWS-makers@brillig.umd.edu
Subject: X and the future
From: maximo!mo@uunet.UU.NET (Mike O'Dell)

The astonishing baroqueness of X is the greatest threat to the general sucess of UNIX to have come along since System V hit the streets. If you try to give an X system to a real human being, not a computer hacker masquerading as a normal person, they will croak. If X doesn'
t instantly burn out their eyes and brain, causing them to throw their UNIX box out the nearest high window, it will drive them straight into the arms of the Macintosh II. With the toolbox under AUX, all the windowy programs on the MacII will have a clear, understable, and universal user interface. With other alternatives, we face the very real prospect of each window (program) having a different user interface. That, friends, will be the death of UNIX.


Indeed. That was 16 years ago. Note that X still hasn't solved the lack of consistent interfaces problem...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline sugarshark

Junior Member




Sugar to the sharks.


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-03-03 11:12:59 »

C'mon, even on our 100 mbit network VNC is hardly responsive enough to edit a file in a text editor, whereas with X you can work like it was a local display.

So the only things you can do with VNC are some small admistrative tasks,  chores you'd had done quicker with a secure shell login, if the windows servers had one and were administrable with a text interface.

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Then I realized who was telling me this.
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Online princec

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-03-03 11:41:20 »

I find X to be a terrible inconsistent interface.
Is there a replacement for Linux, that works more or less like the Windows way?

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-03-03 11:58:22 »

Quote
C'mon, even on our 100 mbit network VNC is hardly responsive enough to edit a file in a text editor, whereas with X you can work like it was a local display.


I've been using VNC over 100M, 10M, 4M, 56k, and 28.8k for the last 6 years and the performance is fine on all the above assuming no obvious mistakes like running on a 286 (don't laugh Smiley), although at less than about 115k you need to be careful about your settings and even so it's a little stuttery. It doesn't dynamically reconfigure itself and/or the desktop if performance drops, so unfortunately you have to tweak settings by hand Sad

I imagine you have outdated versions of VNC and/or a badly configured system (e.g. if you configured it to send only full-screen JPEG updates at minimal compression...). Note that many old versions have the problem where the windows client (or server) is missing most of VNC's features. As a first step, I'd suggest upgrading to tightvnc which is still very much in active development.

I've known many people who use VNC on a local 10M LAN where you can't easily tell from watching that it's a remote display. You should be able to achieve this performance quite easily!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-03-03 12:14:53 »

Quote
Sadly, Y retains the remote-server concept of X. Why?


I found a short statement on http://www.y-windows.org/about.html:
Quote
Network Transparency
   Contrary to popular belief, supporting network transparency does not reduce the speed of the window system on local hosts. Further, with Y's in-server knowledge of widgets, applications run over a slow network can appear almost as responsive as local applications (especially when compared to an X application).

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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




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« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-03-03 12:33:32 »

I agree with blah.

On Windows you DO have Windows Remote Desktop (with clients for Windows and Mac OS) and it works perfectly and is generally much better than VNC because of course they can wedge it in with more of their inside info on how it all works.  That quote about X summarizes my opinion of it.

Mac also has the a remote desktop app - though it is not free (a mistake if you ask me).

So that aspect of X is of limited use.  Being able to force something to display on a remote terminal is neat.  But as a local UI it is one of the biggest issues with Linux usability.  BeOS and Mac OS X have merged UNIX and a decent GUI.. so I know it can be done.  But I doubt it will happen in the near term for Linux.

Just to try to keep things positive:  I do agree with Jeff,  Linux is great because it is a free unix.  And simply having a free unix with all of the free dev tools, like the GNU Compiler Collection is of course a good thing.  I like that Linux is empowering in that regard.  When/if they get the usability issues worked out.. they will really have something.

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-03-03 13:41:06 »

Quote


I found a short statement on http://www.y-windows.org/about.html:


That's great to know, but personally it's not a performance issue that bothers me. It's the fact that it makes installing and using the system significantly more confusing (c.f. explaining to people "you need an X-server" "But I don't want to run a server!" "Yes, but the X server is what you run on the client" "Huh?"), and at least for X it's also made development more tricky (although that is obviously an arch choice that perhaps can be avoided?)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-03-03 14:35:01 »

You didn't write what you don't like about the client/server concept, so I guessed you thought performance is the problem.

Installing is probably not a problem at all. The people who manually install X-server and X-client probably know what they do. The average user's distro installs X by default, so you don't have to worry much about it. They may not even know about X or its client/server concept. After all a distro can always create a meta-package for X, if they like. All in all this is more a distribution or naming question than something you should base your design desicions on. (Every X above can be replaced by Y, if it becomes the standard.)

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-03-03 14:44:30 »

Quote
This *is* the pro-linux thread Smiley so  I'd like to hear someone say something good about X?


...anyone?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
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