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  Faster, smaller, simpler: yours for $99  (Read 10057 times)
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #30 - Posted 2004-02-26 18:21:32 »

How shrewd you are, Mr Monkey sir.
Quote
Personal, philosophical crap.

Exactly  Kiss

Cas Smiley

kul_th_las
Guest
« Reply #31 - Posted 2004-02-26 19:44:00 »

Well, I'm done with the flaming.

Yes, Monkey, I gathered as much.

I'd still like to see a full JDK support. Have a nice day.  Grin

All I'm really trying to say is, "I hate sauerkraut!"
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #32 - Posted 2004-02-26 20:10:52 »

Quote

The only thing missing, sadly, is a Tree Smiley Easily rectified.


I didn't see any mention of high-level concepts, like Action's. I'm not trying to imply that Action's are a holy grail, but they are a convenient and obvious example of the time-saving abilities of higher level constructs within a widget kit.

I actually have done most of the things you cite myself for personal use in a similarly plain form fitting in about 30-40kb (probably mine had fewer features) and it didn't take long. My main interests were to get a better layout system and auto-sizing components. But I'm well aware of how much time I lose in developing with these until/unless I start adding the higher level stuff.

PS I've been ignoring the fact that a simple intelligently written implementation of some things can save significant time over swing (e.g. any reasonable alternative to JTree is worth $99 on it's own if you ahve to use trees in any non-trivial way). Overall, though, I find I make much more use of things like Action's than of trees, at least in games (how often do you see a tree in a game? Most examples I can think of are for server/multiplayer browsers, or a few games use them for editing the config...). Shrug. I'm not claiming it's better or worse than using Swing, just pointing out things that would be major concerns for *me*.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #33 - Posted 2004-02-27 08:15:33 »

Just a thought:
Maybe it would be possible to use AWT by linking to an VM already on the system? Maybe at setup time? I'm thinking the MSVM here which almost anyone has anyway.
It would solve my issues, except that I will have to use AWT for the config screen instead of Swing, but AWT would do here.

Erik

Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #34 - Posted 2004-02-27 08:49:41 »

Just wanted to comment about my only single contact with Jet.

I compiled FlyingGuns with it. Took very long (1/2h?), the result was HUGE and sucked at runtime. Very unsmooth.

I'm suspicious about those tools in terms of complex projects. Maybe I'm unfair bc. I did not give it a second chance .... but that's my experience with it.

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #35 - Posted 2004-02-27 10:18:40 »

I think the poll should be expanded. Reading the other posts for example, I think one point could be:
* I'd buy such a thing if it supported the entire JDK 1.4

?
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #36 - Posted 2004-02-27 10:24:54 »

http://people.redhat.com/graydon/free-swing-feb-09-2004.png
http://people.redhat.com/graydon/free-swing-feb-25-2004.png

In case you haven't noticed, gcj can compile to bytecode and native code on many platforms.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #37 - Posted 2004-02-27 10:53:35 »

There is a gulf of difference between gcj and Jet. Jet is a stunningly professional product, which produces incredible results, and what's more, it's complete.

If I wanted to spend 2 weeks wrestling with gcj I'd already have wasted $99 in coffee and tranquilizers to cope with the stress Smiley

If anyone wants a compiler that supports the entire JDK please take a look at Jet Professional. It's worth every penny if it's what you actually need.

Herk - there are a vast number of tuning options for Jet exes. I discovered what works best through extensive testing and fiddling. For example - the default inlining is incredibly agressive, and way OTT. I reduced them by a factor of 10 and reduced my exe size by half without noticeably changing the performance. Turning off NPE checks and array bounds checks helped a little bit too. Etc.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2004-02-27 11:37:55 »

I didn't compare Jet and gcj. I never tested Jet, so I can't compare, but if you are happy with it, it's probably a good product (honestly). Some people mentioned compilation to native code and AWT/Swing support, so I thought it's worth mentioning gcj.

gcj is build on top of gcc, which is stable, fast and has a lot of options, too. AWT/Swing is not complete, but some parts are implemented. CORBA is missing. The other parts are mostly on 1.4 level. I don't have to wrestle with gcj, because it's as easy as any other install here. Maybe it's a problem on Windows (don't know).

What do you mean by saying "supports the whole JDK"? The Jet-FAQ says that, if I have Jet Professional + Jet Perfect and no GUI classes (AWT/Swing/Java2D?) I need no JRE. If I use GUI classes I need the JRE. "supports the whole JDK" has two possible meanings:

1. You can compile every Java app by using an already installed complete JDK.
2. You can compile every Java app by using only Jet/gcj.

The first possibility is true according to the FAQ. I didn't test, if gcj can compile every Java app, if you feed it with the JDK libs, but chances are probably good.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline dleskov

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #39 - Posted 2004-02-27 12:18:21 »

Quote
Just wanted to comment about my only single contact with Jet.

I compiled FlyingGuns with it. Took very long (1/2h?), the result was HUGE and sucked at runtime. Very unsmooth.

I'm suspicious about those tools in terms of complex projects. Maybe I'm unfair bc. I did not give it a second chance .... but that's my experience with it.

Out of curiosity, I have compiled the FlyingGuns demo with JET 3.5 using default settings. On my antique system (Celeron 400MHz/256 MB RAM/TNT2 Ultra) the frame rate is about 15-17 FPS on HotSpot 1.4.2_02 Client and sometimes it drops to 5 due to GC activity. With JET, I get about 17-20 FPS and it never drops below 10. Under HotSpot Server, it flickered for about 30secs then started to work with BIG pauses and FPS about 12-14.

I used default settings for all three VMs except setting the heap to 128MB. I am noew going to try the JetPerfect Global OPtimizer on this demo and then can send you or post here the respective project files.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #40 - Posted 2004-02-27 12:34:00 »

I said I'd be unfair Smiley

But it's good to hear that FG runs on a 400/tnt2 Smiley

Maybe there's also a difference in scalability.

I never could see much difference between client and server vm e.g.  --- maybe bc. the game is no longer CPU-bound on faster machines?

Something like that.

But to make that clear: I never said or wanted to say that Jet sucks! In no respect! I only tried it ONCE and reported what I saw. Cannot afford Jet anyway.

But if you have a compiled binary for me, I can upload it to the SourceForge site and everybody will be able to compare himself!

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #41 - Posted 2004-03-01 03:49:41 »

Quote
I didn't compare Jet and gcj. I never tested Jet, so I can't compare, but if you are happy with it, it's probably a good product (honestly). Some people mentioned compilation to native code and AWT/Swing support, so I thought it's worth mentioning gcj.

gcj is build on top of gcc, which is stable, fast and has a lot of options, too. AWT/Swing is not complete, but some parts are implemented. CORBA is missing. The other parts are mostly on 1.4 level. I don't have to wrestle with gcj, because it's as easy as any other install here. Maybe it's a problem on Windows (don't know).

What do you mean by saying "supports the whole JDK"? The Jet-FAQ says that, if I have Jet Professional + Jet Perfect and no GUI classes (AWT/Swing/Java2D?) I need no JRE. If I use GUI classes I need the JRE. "supports the whole JDK" has two possible meanings:

1. You can compile every Java app by using an already installed complete JDK.
2. You can compile every Java app by using only Jet/gcj.

The first possibility is true according to the FAQ. I didn't test, if gcj can compile every Java app, if you feed it with the JDK libs, but chances are probably good.


Definitally one project to watch - it's a shame it has taken so long to get this far but it really seems to be picking up steam recently.

I too like Swing - it makes all the pre-game stuff quicker to code.

Will.

Offline dleskov

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #42 - Posted 2004-03-01 11:45:09 »

Quote
But if you have a compiled binary for me, I can upload it to the SourceForge site and everybody will be able to compare himself!

No problem except download size. Fluying Guns needs AWT, so the whole JRE has to be either bundled or preinstalled for the executable to work, as well as Java3D. Without JetPerfect Global Optimizer, the "all-included" download is 35MB (JRE 1.4.2_03 + Java3D 1.3), the executables-only download is 16MB.  

With JetPerfect, the generated EXE is about 11MB (zips to 6MB). However, I could not put it to work on first attempt (got an NPE in Thread_1), and I have little means to figure out what causes the exception. FG developers would have done this much faster than me because they know how to enable logging in their app and so on.

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #43 - Posted 2004-03-02 10:26:22 »

If I wanted to write native games for windows without AWT and Swing, I'd use C/C++.

However, the option of squeezing out extra performance, even if it's just for windows, would be nice. But I'm not sure I'd want to spend $100 on it..
I voted a careful "no".

Play Minecraft!
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #44 - Posted 2004-03-02 14:26:13 »

You'd still fall prey to all the crap problems presented by C/C++ that make Java development so easy though. Not to mention the fact that you can still deploy your game with Webstart on all 3 platforms* if you stick with Java, or packaged specifically for each OS with very little effort.

$99 too expensive!? Too used to stuff for free methinks!

Cas Smiley

[size=0]* well, when we get the Mac LWJGL stuff working with webstart anyway Wink[/size]

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #45 - Posted 2004-03-02 16:26:00 »

*Threadjack*

What sort of progress are you making with LWJGL on Mac?  This was an issue when I tried to package Cosmic Trip for Erik.   If the AWT thread is started after LWJGL is used (e.g. by a BufferedImage access) the application will hang.  This made the app appear to work with Webstart, but not when packaged as a Mac app bundle.   The second issue was that keyboard input was totally hosed once we got it to not hang.  Press a key and the machine beeps at you as if the queue is full or something.
Odd problems, perhaps related to LWJGL input APIs?  (which should probably use Cocoa to play nice with 1.4 on Mac, but I think they are using Carbon).

Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #46 - Posted 2004-03-02 17:09:08 »

Well, those are mostly known problems. For now, it's "don't even touch AWT when using LWJGL". That also means no webstart, because it uses swing. The input problem is a symptom too.

Now, the port is based on a natively created window and context, like the other ports, but that simply seemed to be too weird for a mac, so once we get a chance, we will convert LWJGL-for-mac to something like JOGL, that is, LWJGL-on-awt-plus-gl-context. The timeframe is before Tribal Trouble goes alpha when we will buy a mac and get it to work (hopefully) or when cas does it on his newly acquired mac, whichever comes first.

- elias

Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #47 - Posted 2004-03-02 17:38:17 »

OK! Glad to have seen this, we are able to get our stuff "working" through webstart, but no textures are loaded properly (all image data is zeroed out, so all textures are black). But everything else seems to work. You can see a black model animating for instance. The input also does not work correctly. However, it is unconfirmed if it works any better without webstart. Smiley

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #48 - Posted 2004-03-02 17:49:25 »

I'm not so sure the garbled textures are my fault though. When TT was first run on  a mac most textures were corrupt - because we had unintentionally made our loaders endian specific.

- elias

Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #49 - Posted 2004-03-02 17:55:26 »

Ahhhh, thanks for the tip.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #50 - Posted 2004-03-02 18:07:45 »

Quote
$99 too expensive!? Too used to stuff for free methinks!


<hint>Yeah, like Java and WebStart</hint>.



Play Minecraft!
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #51 - Posted 2004-03-03 02:46:34 »

So I find this intriguing myself.  Liek Shawn, I'm not sure of the speed claims, at least not without requiring some real ugliness like making all non-polymorphic calls static in your code.  (This is one of the reasons JET bloated your app.  In order to approach Hotspot speed it had to actually include multiple copies of key sections of the code to fall back to in order to provide functionality like the VM's aggressive inlining.

However IF you could indeed reach even 95% of Hostpot Server speed on real apps AND if the system was extensible such that I didn't *have* to use LWJGL but could, for instance with some work port JOGL/JOAL/JInput ,  I think sucha   compiler at such a reasonable price point might have some appeal to me to play with.

I think it would have even MORE appeal though if it compiled to some of the platforms I can't reach today witha  VM, say PS2 and Dreamcube?  Maybe even GBA?

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #52 - Posted 2004-03-03 07:53:02 »

It easily reaches server speed in the real-world game code I've written, with the extra special advantage of insanely fast startup time and considerably reduced footprint.

If JOAL and JInput don't depend on AWT then you've got free reign to use them. JOGL is sadly tied to AWT and therefore out of bounds. Hence the suggestion that LWJGL, which does all three in about 1/10th the size, would be shipped with it. (And what do you know, Gregory has figured out how to run LWJGL on top of AWT now I believe...)

Cas Smiley

Offline Jacko

Junior Member





« Reply #53 - Posted 2004-03-14 16:35:18 »

Has anyone on these boards had a look at D from digital-mars. http://www.digitalmars.com/d/

Not tried it yet myself, but I am tempted to have a paddle at least.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #54 - Posted 2004-03-14 18:30:22 »

Quote
In D, strings are simply arrays of characters, not a special  type.

Yet in the comparison table they have "Built-in strings:Yes"
The table also will change a bit with the release of Java 1.5.

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #55 - Posted 2004-03-14 18:54:11 »

Its an example of one of them great comparison tables desinged to show the benefits of the supported product rather than a comparison. Smiley

Kev

Offline Jacko

Junior Member





« Reply #56 - Posted 2004-03-14 19:41:48 »

Yes, it is a biased comparison, but it would be on the D website wouldnt it. I just like the way it seems to have been designed, so that the language provides all the nice stuff from Java like GC, no header files, etc but doesnt stop you from getting your hands dirty when you decide to. Of course, the libraries that come with the language are a big win for Java over D.

(And Snow Patrol - is the rest of the album as good as Run? Very tempted by it.)
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #57 - Posted 2004-03-14 19:46:33 »

They just released the single Chocolate aswell, so you'll get a second one to compare to. But yes, the album is fantastic, every bit as good as Run.

Kev

Offline dleskov

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #58 - Posted 2004-03-30 11:41:47 »

Quote
So I find this intriguing myself.  Liek Shawn, I'm not sure of the speed claims, at least not without requiring some real ugliness like making all non-polymorphic calls static in your code.  (This is one of the reasons JET bloated your app.  In order to approach Hotspot speed it had to actually include multiple copies of key sections of the code to fall back to in order to provide functionality like the VM's aggressive inlining.

However IF you could indeed reach even 95% of Hostpot Server speed on real apps AND if the system was extensible such that I didn't *have* to use LWJGL but could, for instance with some work port JOGL/JOAL/JInput ,  I think sucha   compiler at such a reasonable price point might have some appeal to me to play with.

I think it would have even MORE appeal though if it compiled to some of the platforms I can't reach today witha  VM, say PS2 and Dreamcube?  Maybe even GBA?

Regarding PS2, see my post in another forum.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #59 - Posted 2004-03-31 04:36:00 »

Okay,

So what about gamecube?  Smiley

On JOGL...  well I'm hopign it wont be AWT dependant forever msyelf.  If you hacked a version to remove awt dependnacies that woudl be fine for me I'd just like call-compatability with code written for the desktop...

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
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