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  Starting a team (Music Composer, Developer, 3d designer, and writer needed)  (Read 34703 times)
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Offline parohy

Senior Newbie


Medals: 2



« Reply #30 - Posted 2015-03-17 11:55:52 »

Strange. He metioned he is looking for a composer, 3d designer and writer. How you ppl figured out he wont do anything. From the post it seems he will do the coding and he needs other members to do the content and bacground so he can concentrate more on the code. Having a game engine doesnt mean he has a complete game...
Offline teletubo
Global Moderator

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2015-03-17 12:02:22 »

This seems to be a another "bash anyone who asks for people to join their project" thread! What a fun and encouraging community there is here. 

Most people gave him real advice and good reasons why this is not a good idea. You could point us on the direction why this IS a good idea instead of just saying the community is bad for saying otherwise.

Being a good community is not just saying pretty things to each other. Is saying things that will help you.

Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:10:13 »

This seems to be a another "bash anyone who asks for people to join their project" thread! What a fun and encouraging community there is here.  

This is a technical forum. The primary goal is not to be fun and encouraging- it's to be technically accurate. The fun and encouragement come second.

There's a huge difference between "bashing" and giving somebody constructive criticism and feedback.

Nobody's asked what kind of game the OP wants to make. If it sounds interesting the exact tech and team structure would be of secondary interest and I would want to hear more. If not I could have been out of this thread after the OP and skipped all the negativity.

We shouldn't have to ask. Let's say I posted a job offer that went like this:

"I've invented a new management system. I just need a receptionist, a salesperson, and a manufacturer. You will NOT be paid, but you will have to be between the ages of 30 and 35, and you will have to work A LOT."

How many people would apply to that job? Would you then say "well c'mon guys, nobody even asked him what his business was going to sell"? Would reactions telling me that I was approaching job offers incorrectly be considered "too negative"?

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Offline ABOODYFJ
« Reply #33 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:39:57 »

This seems to be a another "bash anyone who asks for people to join their project" thread! What a fun and encouraging community there is here.  

This is a technical forum. The primary goal is not to be fun and encouraging- it's to be technically accurate. The fun and encouragement come second.

There's a huge difference between "bashing" and giving somebody constructive criticism and feedback.

Nobody's asked what kind of game the OP wants to make. If it sounds interesting the exact tech and team structure would be of secondary interest and I would want to hear more. If not I could have been out of this thread after the OP and skipped all the negativity.

We shouldn't have to ask. Let's say I posted a job offer that went like this:

"I've invented a new management system. I just need a receptionist, a salesperson, and a manufacturer. You will NOT be paid, but you will have to be between the ages of 30 and 35, and you will have to work A LOT."

How many people would apply to that job? Would you then say "well c'mon guys, nobody even asked him what his business was going to sell"? Would reactions telling me that I was approaching job offers incorrectly be considered "too negative"?

It actually does make a difference, Especially that you did not take the time to talk to me privately and understand what my plan was. Although you did give me *some* constructive criticism, Most of what you have done was "bash" on this thread. So please stop trying to be "helpful" because you're not, If you don't like what you read, You can read something else.
Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:40:39 »

Here's a list of similar threads that I got from putting the word "team" in the forum's search box. I'm sure I could find more. Notice how many of them went anywhere.

http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/brutal-fighters-let-s-build-a-team/35510/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/newbie-dev-looking-for-a-team/35741/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/norakomi-is-looking-for-a-team-graphic-designers-coders-music-composers/33270/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/creating-game-developer-s-team-for-beginners/35703/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/team-looking-for-programmer-s-rev-sharing/30666/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/game-programmer-looking-for-team/34113/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/looking-for-team-members/32671/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/looking-for-team-experience/31855/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/developing-a-new-free-roam-2d-game-team-needed/29020/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/creating-dev-team-java-2d/32681/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/recruitment-for-team-technic/35201/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/looking-for-a-small-team/32642/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/lookign-for-members-to-make-a-team/28830/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/join-our-team-jumpbutton-studio/31554/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/looking-to-create-a-small-dev-team/32220/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/looking-for-indie-team-working-on-a-virtual-world-game/30186/view.html
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/3d-binding-team-based-contest-idea/18983/view.html

Point being, we've seen this type of post before, and they almost never go anywhere. And we know why: it's exciting and easy to get lost in the daydream of "what's next?", especially if you think you've just come up with a great idea or a new framework.

But that's the problem- daydreams are easy; real life is not. Ideas are cheap. Frameworks are cheap. Work is not.

We've all done the "well I'm going to make this game, and it's going to be a huge hit, and I'm going to be a millionaire within a year and everything will be happily ever after" thinking- but asking people to work 6 hours a day on your daydream, for free, isn't very realistic. Especially if all you provide is "I've created this framework, come work for me for free" and no demo, no prior projects, no portfolio, no proof that you bring anything to the table other than demanding free labor.

We're not trying to be discouraging- if you're going to succeed, you're going to have to deal with much harsher criticism than a bunch of nerds on a forum trying to help you understand how it all works. If we can discourage you, then just think about what's going to happen the first time your team has a conflict, or a missed deadline, or a big flop.

You can continue being offended and defensive, or you can take it for what it is: my attempt at helping you by showing you our perspective. Come up with a demo. Show us your previous work. We shouldn't have to "talk to you privately" to know what your plan is- you're asking us to work for you for free, the least you can do is tell us what we'd be working on. Show us why that plan will work. Show us other plans that you've come up with that have succeeded.

If the only way you know how to respond to criticism is to become defensive and tell me to "read something else", I wouldn't want to work for you, and I'm sure others feel the same way. Good leaders address criticism and use it as a way to improve instead of trying to block it all out.

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Offline ABOODYFJ
« Reply #35 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:47:49 »

@Rayvolution
Calling me lazy is just straight up insulting me. How do I come off as lazy ? If you noticed I didn't ask for a programmer.. Only a graphics designer (Just because I want my game assets to look good doesn't mean I'm lazy), Assets don't put themselves together you know? I'm gonna be loading them in my engine, I'm going to be working on the game mechanics, I already stated that; A game is a collaborative effort, Not a one man job.
But I don't get why you see that as lazy.. Honestly I don't care, But this is the problem with "programming" "communities", They're hardly a community, It's mostly people stealing from each other, And if they can't find something to steal they hate.. In the end it was wrong of me to ask on such a forum, The result was pretty obvious, People are gonna try to sound like smart asses.. geez..

And @everyoneelse Making a demo would kill the purpose of a demo, I don't have good enough assets to put in the engine and show a good demo.. But here's a preview..

http://youtu.be/TGtsQzQ7R-Q

Geez people in here are so dumb..
Offline BurntPizza

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 486
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« Reply #36 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:53:25 »

It actually does make a difference, Especially that you did not take the time to talk to me privately and understand what my plan was. Although you did give me *some* constructive criticism, Most of what you have done was "bash" on this thread. So please stop trying to be "helpful" because you're not, If you don't like what you read, You can read something else.

Maybe your OP should have said somewhere, "Message me if you are interested and want details," or similar. Instead it gives no indication of what to expect other than whatever the project is, it's ambitious enough to require it's own 3D artist(s) and composer(s). Hard to get interested in a lack of detail.

But I don't get why you see that as lazy.. Honestly I don't care, But this is the problem with "programming" "communities", They're hardly a community, It's mostly people stealing from each other, And if they can't find something to steal they hate.. In the end it was wrong of me to ask on such a forum, The result was pretty obvious, People are gonna try to sound like smart asses.. geez..

Geez people in here are so dumb..

Now you're getting overly defensive and are straight up insulting us. But don't listen to me, I'm just a smartass.
Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #37 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:58:14 »

this is the problem with "programming" "communities", They're hardly a community, It's mostly people stealing from each other

Says the guy demanding free labor...

And if they can't find something to steal they hate.. In the end it was wrong of me to ask on such a forum, The result was pretty obvious, People are gonna try to sound like smart asses.. geez..

I've honestly been trying to help you. I don't think anything I've said was unreasonable. Your reaction has shown more than any demo possibly could.

Making a demo would kill the purpose of a demo, I don't have good enough assets to put in the engine and show a good demo..

Flip the roles: Say I'm an artist, and I tell you that "all I need is a programmer to make a game, I can make the art. I expect you to work 6 hours a day."

Wouldn't you want to see some of the other art I've done? Wouldn't you want to see some proof that working for me, for free, would be beneficial to you? If I reacted to that by calling you stupid, would you want to work for me? That's all we're asking. If you can't do that, then you aren't ready to lead a team. There's nothing wrong with that.

Geez people in here are so dumb..

Ah, there it is. Good luck. I'm sure you'll go far with your attitude.

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Offline ABOODYFJ
« Reply #38 - Posted 2015-03-17 13:58:26 »

Your first comment was far from constructive, So you come of as a non constructive hater, So therefore I tell you to go read something else.
Some things are better discussed privately, For example, Why would I want to show work to people that are not interested in the project ? If someone is interested in such a thing they could contact me and talk to me and see where I'm coming from, They can then see my "framework" and my "portfolio and previous projects"..
But you become offensive and you don't want me to be defensive, Doesn't make sense really.

And if you keep thinking that your perspective is the only "right" one, Then you're in for a harsh awakening.
Offline Opiop
« Reply #39 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:02:29 »

You're missing the entire point of what everyone is saying because you didn't get what you wanted. If you would listen instead of trying desperately to not change anything about your initial request, then you would see that most of us are trying to help you out and tell you that the way you are doing things right now is not going to get you anywhere. NO ONE wants to work for free. NO ONE will come work for you without a portfolio of their potential employer to be present, NO ONE wants to work on a project which has no design documents, or plan. What you gave us is this, basically:

I have an engine, I want to make a game. I need free labor, you have to be this old, and you must do this.

Now, if you would step back a minute and calm down you would understand that your "plan" is exactly the opposite of that; you don't have a plan. Or, you have no presented us with a plan.

Come back with a solid goal, a portfolio, a demo, and compensation, and then you might have a chance for a team to work out. Currently, as it stands, you will not be getting anywhere. Especially not calling everyone in this forum a smartass because you didn't get what you wanted.
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Offline ABOODYFJ
« Reply #40 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:03:57 »

this is the problem with "programming" "communities", They're hardly a community, It's mostly people stealing from each other

Says the guy demanding free labor...

And if they can't find something to steal they hate.. In the end it was wrong of me to ask on such a forum, The result was pretty obvious, People are gonna try to sound like smart asses.. geez..

I've honestly been trying to help you. I don't think anything I've said was unreasonable. Your reaction has shown more than any demo possibly could.



Making a demo would kill the purpose of a demo, I don't have good enough assets to put in the engine and show a good demo..

Flip the roles: Say I'm an artist, and I tell you that "all I need is a programmer to make a game, I can make the art. I expect you to work 6 hours a day."

Wouldn't you want to see some of the other art I've done? Wouldn't you want to see some proof that working for me, for free, would be beneficial to you? If I reacted to that by calling you stupid, would you want to work for me? That's all we're asking. If you can't do that, then you aren't ready to lead a team. There's nothing wrong with that.


Geez people in here are so dumb..

Ah, there it is. Good luck. I'm sure you'll go far with your attitude.

1: Communities "HELP" eachother.
2: Read the title; Not looking for advice, Not yours in particular.
3: I would just contact them and ask instead of bash on them and then say I was being "constructive" when I really don't know the person i'm talking to.
Offline Varkas
« Reply #41 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:05:24 »

Just a note: people who've been around the game development communities for a while have seen a lot of such postings, and also seen a lot of such attempts to form a team, fail.

But it can work, I also saw that - even by a person who had no development skills at all, neither programming, nor sound nor gfx. But he was a brillant motivator and manager.

I'm just trying to explain why you see so much negativity here. Added on top, that you are using a selfmade engine, which usually is another indication of problems. Most of the existing engines out there include many man-years of work, and you'll have to convince people that you could write somethign as good or better in less than two months.

As a programmer, or graphics artist, I feel also hesitent to join such offers, unless someone has a good history of interestinmg projects. Don't need to be successful, but kind of "prrof of concept" works, so that I can develop some faith in your skills, that you can pull it off, and that I'm not working "as hard as you" for some years just to see it going dopwn the drain. On the other hand, 90% of all hobby projects go that way (mine, too).

You must get into the role of a motivator, mediator and manager. Tell why your project will be a success, why it will be fun and good to join your team, and what you'll do better than the others, so your idea will not be in the 90% that, you know, just drie out and die in some weeks, months or years ...

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Offline KudoDEV

JGO Ninja


Medals: 79
Exp: 6 years


Game Dev Hobbyist


« Reply #42 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:07:19 »

...

It's okay ABOODYFJ. People here get VERY hostile when there's another team building thread. Everyone has had bad experience with a "team."

So any mention of it boils our blood.

Especially when the OP has no credit within the community.

I would at least show what your "engine" is capable of.

Offline Opiop
« Reply #43 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:07:45 »

Quote
1: Communities "HELP" eachother.

Exactly. So, ask yourself, what are you giving back to the community? Or are you just trying to find some free labor? Communities aren't here for people to come use other people for their dream projects. Communities are here for people to come seek advice and information about their issues. Stealing labor isn't helping anyone besides yourself. I would say that's greed.
Offline BurntPizza

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 486
Exp: 7 years



« Reply #44 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:10:43 »

I know you're not replying to me specifically, but:

Quote
For example, Why would I want to show work to people that are not interested in the project ?

So they can become interested?

Quote
If someone is interested in such a thing they could contact me and talk to me and see where I'm coming from, They can then see my "framework" and my "portfolio and previous projects"..

Why not acredit yourself and link a portfolio to begin with?
Everyone here has expressed that this would have improved their outlook on your venture.


This thread...
Offline ABOODYFJ
« Reply #45 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:18:59 »

Just a note: people who've been around the game development communities for a while have seen a lot of such postings, and also seen a lot of such attempts to form a team, fail.

But it can work, I also saw that - even by a person who had no development skills at all, neither programming, nor sound nor gfx. But he was a brillant motivator and manager.

I'm just trying to explain why you see so much negativity here. Added on top, that you are using a selfmade engine, which usually is another indication of problems. Most of the existing engines out there include many man-years of work, and you'll have to convince people that you could write somethign as good or better in less than two months.

As a programmer, or graphics artist, I feel also hesitent to join such offers, unless someone has a good history of interestinmg projects. Don't need to be successful, but kind of "prrof of concept" works, so that I can develop some faith in your skills, that you can pull it off, and that I'm not working "as hard as you" for some years just to see it going dopwn the drain. On the other hand, 90% of all hobby projects go that way (mine, too).

You must get into the role of a motivator, mediator and manager. Tell why your project will be a success, why it will be fun and good to join your team, and what you'll do better than the others, so your idea will not be in the 90% that, you know, just drie out and die in some weeks, months or years ...


I get what you're saying, And thanks for delivering your point without being so offensive.
But that's why there's a "private message" button; All of the problems that everyone listed could have been fixed by straight up contacting me,
I would show what I've worked on in the past, I'd show where I currently work.
Id tell you the concept, etc..
And if we agreed we could be bound by a contract which is why people needed to be 18.
It doesn't need to be that hard, I guess people in this website don't have much real life experience.

Demo was up, My other projects where also on my profile page.
Offline Opiop
« Reply #46 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:28:19 »

Then why not create an enticing first post? Link all your previous work there, link some YouTube videos (or other video hosting service), state your plan and outline for your game etc... People come into your thread and see yet another person with an "engine" who wants free labor. Take the time to build a good opening post complete with everything a person would need to get to know your project. You, the employer, are advertising your work. You are hoping that someone will see your project, and want to help you. So why would you add the extra step of making your potential employee drag all that information about your project out of you? Why not just include that in your initial post? If you would have just presented all the information in a clean and organized manor in your first post, this would all have never happened. Forcing a potential employee to seek out information about YOUR project is a death sentence for your endeavor.

Not to mention your demo literally is just two objects. No offense, but what does that show anyone? Create a game plan. Design the basics of a level, create a rough draft of the game mechanics. As it currently stands, you have a car and a building and a "camera". Well... alright... some 12 year olds on this forum could do that (again, not trying to be offensive), so you need to show something more. You NEED to show a demo of your GAME, not your engine.

Being an employer requires you to learn how to advertise things. It seems you don't know how to do that, and on top of that you are just kind of rude. Calling people names is not professional, and is an instant red flag to anyone who might want to work with you. Learn how to take criticism and advice, and learn to know when you need to re-do your plan.
Offline KevinWorkman

« JGO Plugged Duke »


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« Reply #47 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:30:24 »

You keep saying that we should have privately messaged you. You posted on a public forum, and the default way to reply to a post on a public forum is by publicly replying, which we've done. Relying on private messages defeats the whole purpose of a public forum.

You also keep saying that I'm offensive and just bashing you. What specifically have I said that was offensive?

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Offline Zeta

Junior Devvie


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« Reply #48 - Posted 2015-03-17 14:37:44 »

This thread was a good read. I learned alot actually.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -Albert Einstein
Offline CopyableCougar4
« Reply #49 - Posted 2015-03-17 15:30:32 »

ABOODYFJ, all you have done is tell us you have an engine and expect people to flock to you. Everybody on this forum could write an engine. People want a project that they can be excited about, not a belligerent leader with no credibility who expects people to work on "his" dream project for FREE.

I hope this topic gets fed to the chitchat monster. It will keep him fed for a looong time.

Either wandering the forum or programming. Most likely the latter Smiley

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Offline teletubo
Global Moderator

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Medals: 75
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« Reply #50 - Posted 2015-03-17 15:53:35 »

ABOODYFJ, all you have done is tell us you have an engine and expect people to flock to you. Everybody on this forum could write an engine. People want a project that they can be excited about, not a belligerent leader with no credibility who expects people to work on "his" dream project for FREE.

I hope this topic gets fed to the chitchat monster. It will keep him fed for a looong time.

Yeah, it's done. I was trying to split it but SMF interface to split is kind of clunky to do that. But then that's a good chance to ABOODYFJ start fresh (or not)

edit: maybe it is better not to chitchat it, since other people might see this topic and get a better understanding on how to (or not to) recruit team members.

Offline KevinWorkman

« JGO Plugged Duke »


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« Reply #51 - Posted 2015-03-17 15:56:10 »

Ah, shucks. I thought some of it was useful, if not to the OP then hopefully to other people looking to build a team in the future- which is why replying publicly is better than private messages. Although, chances are they wouldn't do the search to check for similar posts anyway...

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Offline teletubo
Global Moderator

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« Reply #52 - Posted 2015-03-17 15:59:02 »

Ah, shucks. I thought some of it was useful, if not to the OP then hopefully to other people looking to build a team in the future- which is why replying publicly is better than private messages. Although, chances are they wouldn't do the search to check for similar posts anyway...

You are right. Many people wrote valuable stuff here and spent some time doing so. It would be unfair to them.
I'm sorry about that, I'm still a little bit rusty on modding JGO since I've been away for the last year Smiley

Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #53 - Posted 2015-03-17 16:02:12 »

Eh, it's no big deal. I don't think anybody (except maybe OP) would mind seeing this one get shredded. Do whatever you think is best!

I'm just worried about losing my precious, precious medals! :p (just kidding... mostly...)

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Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #54 - Posted 2015-03-17 16:28:42 »

@Rayvolution
Calling me lazy is just straight up insulting me. How do I come off as lazy ? If you noticed I didn't ask for a programmer.. Only a graphics designer (Just because I want my game assets to look good doesn't mean I'm lazy), Assets don't put themselves together you know? I'm gonna be loading them in my engine, I'm going to be working on the game mechanics, I already stated that; A game is a collaborative effort, Not a one man job.
But I don't get why you see that as lazy.. Honestly I don't care, But this is the problem with "programming" "communities", They're hardly a community, It's mostly people stealing from each other, And if they can't find something to steal they hate.. In the end it was wrong of me to ask on such a forum, The result was pretty obvious, People are gonna try to sound like smart asses.. geez..

And @everyoneelse Making a demo would kill the purpose of a demo, I don't have good enough assets to put in the engine and show a good demo.. But here's a preview..

http://youtu.be/TGtsQzQ7R-Q

Geez people in here are so dumb..

I said I had a gut feeling based on past experience, and I still have that gut feeling. Remember, most of the time even you won't realize that's what you're doing.

Also, that's why I tossed this in there, in case I am wrong, because it's possible I just took your post out of context;
If that isn't the OP'ers intent, I mean no offense.

But, the fact you snapped at me the way you did sort of proves my point. You're falling right in-line with the personalities I was referencing. Smiley

Either way, I would highly recommend getting more meat to show people before trying to put together a whole team. That, or learn the required skills yourself and don't have a team at all.

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Offline Soulfoam
« Reply #55 - Posted 2015-03-18 00:32:57 »

If you are not giving whomever anything of value to work for you, do you really think someone is going to want to just join in on your project which has no progress at all besides this "engine" you've made?

These threads are literally the equivalent of you going up to random people on the street and saying "excuse me sir, I have a business idea but no money, will you get me all the supplies to build a building for my business for free, oh could you also build the building for me for free too?".

Now lets be real here, doesn't that just sound absurd?
Offline ABOODYFJ
« Reply #56 - Posted 2015-03-18 11:15:17 »

@Soul Foam
Like I said, (And showed) I already have an engine, It works just fine. And it's ready to make a game, That is not "A business idea", That's the infrastructure for a building.. So i'm not asking anyone to "build me a building" I am asking someone to lay the final layers of paint; I am only asking for someone to help me with Graphics design as you have noticed.
I am done replying to these stupid comments.
You are either trying to blind yourself so you can leave a meaningless comment, Or are just stupid and cannot read and understand basic English.
Offline richierich
« Reply #57 - Posted 2015-03-18 11:34:04 »

Any thoughts yet about what the game will be?
Offline Gibbo3771

JGO Kernel


Medals: 128
Projects: 5
Exp: 1 year


Currently inactive on forums :(


« Reply #58 - Posted 2015-03-18 11:51:52 »

I am done replying to these stupid comments.
You are either trying to blind yourself so you can leave a meaningless comment, Or are just stupid and cannot read and understand basic English.

The only stupid comments in this thread are your ones.

The only insults in here are the ones you're typing.

Less of your shite.

"This code works flawlessly first time and exactly how I wanted it"
Said no programmer ever
Offline chrislo27
« Reply #59 - Posted 2015-03-18 12:09:04 »

I am only asking for someone to help me with Graphics design as you have noticed.
You just noted in the title that you're also requesting a music composer, a "developer", and a writer.

So i'm not asking anyone to "build me a building" I am asking someone to lay the final layers of paint
You're essentially calling your engine a finished game (the building) and all it needs are some bugfixes (the final layers of paint). However, what you've presented to us is a building foundation waiting for a frame, walls, windows, etc.

It appears you either don't have a plan, or you're not showing it to us. You've built an engine, good for you but you're thinking as if it's a game when in reality it's essentially a tech demo.

I am done replying to these stupid comments.
You are either trying to blind yourself so you can leave a meaningless comment, Or are just stupid and cannot read and understand basic English.
We asked for some more details about your software but apparently we all are stupid and can't read your mind to find out about your software therefore INSULTS.

You're asking for a team, but you aren't even cooperative in the first place.
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