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  Altering that JRE license to my own ends  (Read 11852 times)
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kul_th_las
Guest
« Reply #60 - Posted 2004-02-21 19:38:20 »

This is going to sound a bit short, and perhaps a bit rude. If you want to compete in a serious way using Java:

(1) Distribute on CD
(2) A line from GDC "Build Better Games"

I want to see Java games succeed. However, I've yet to see enough finished, polished games that are worth all this arguing. I have to say thank you to the people that are doing (and have done) their best to accomplish this. Thank you to Sun and the GTG. What we need is 500 finished, polished games that are worth all this arguing, which will help breed a reputation for something other than applets. "Build better games. Build better games. Build better games."

I believe the quality that is required is possible - but we're not making believers out of many people. "Installation program" makers are out there. The top 15 games in Java I've seen would be difficult to sell to just about anyone for more than $10 USD.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #61 - Posted 2004-02-22 14:55:11 »

I largely agree with kul_th_las' statement although '$10' is a facetious figure. My own game, which is far from 'AAA' quality, is converting at around 1% which is entirely acceptable, and it's selling for $20. And Tribal Trouble, when it's released, looks set to be the dog's danglies. TT does appear to be the only other serious game in development from board participants in these parts that is likely to be released this year.

I would like ChrisM and a couple of other guest members from the GTG to a moderated discussion in the Dexterity forums, which have over the last year become the nexus for discussion of independent game development. There are a lot of developers in there, most of them professional. But I'm the only Java developer. So I think it would be productive if some of those guys had a chat with Chris about why they're not interested in Java.

Cas Smiley

kul_th_las
Guest
« Reply #62 - Posted 2004-02-22 15:24:17 »

Let me clarify a bit. Not every game on the Java Top 15 is worth $10.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #63 - Posted 2004-02-22 15:28:40 »

You actually know of 15 games???

Cas Smiley

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #64 - Posted 2004-02-23 01:07:04 »

I do. I play them on pogo and shockwave.com.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #65 - Posted 2004-02-23 08:18:46 »

Ohh, those sorts of games.

Now, don't all rush at once and just carry on a thread war over there but I have started a thread on Dexterity.com in which some professionals will hopefully post some useful insights.

It would be most excellent if a Sun representative would chime in with their 2c.

Cas Smiley

Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #66 - Posted 2004-02-23 13:39:26 »

I'm sorry, but an argument was made that I've seen a lot on these boards and I have to refute it.  I'm speaking of this from kul_th_las' most recent post:

Quote

What we need is 500 finished, polished games that are worth all this arguing, which will help breed a reputation for something other than applets.


Yes, it is true that 500 released games that all require the JRE would engender the notion amoung game players that it's good to have the JRE installed.  So, who wants to be first?

And there's the problem.  Nobody wants to be first.  Nobody wants to write a game that requires the JRE to be downloaded and isntalled separately, and for good reason.  The large games aren't worried about an extra 15 MB of bloat, and thus they are encouraged to wrap a distro of the JRE into their installer.  And therefore the end user is blissfully unaware that he's even using java.

And those of us writing smaller games?  Well, we can't handle 15 MB of extra download.  And thus we're either scared away from Java altogether, or we use stuff like Jet that even further obscures the fact that we use Java.  

Sure, in either case the author could shout to the moon that he uses Java, even put the logo on every screen of the game.  But if the end user didn't need to separately download and install the JRE, he's not going to associate the JRE with that thing that makes all these cool games work.  But conversly, nobody wants to be the first game to force someone to separately download the JRE, because as we all know, the more clicks between the user and playing the game, the less likely he is to get to the end.

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #67 - Posted 2004-02-23 14:02:02 »

Quote


Yes, it is true that 500 released games that all require the JRE would engender the notion amoung game players that it's good to have the JRE installed.  So, who wants to be first?

And there's the problem.  Nobody wants to be first.


...but it doesn't help that no-one's been collating them (ahem. I don't include crappy geocities pages that have 5 thousand adverts and are including random content, e.g. "lots of free java games", just to drive hits to make a quick buck).

http://grexengine.com/sections/externalgames/ (in case you missed it)

I won't do it for a while yet, but ultimately I would like to de-list all non-webstart games (it's fine to have webstart AND non-webstart versions, a la puppygames, but the important thing is there has to be *a* webstart version...); I won't just ignore them, but I'll move them all to a separate page (the one for inferior games Wink).

The idea is to do a couple of things

  • *every* java games developer - hobbyist, amateur, professional - should be able to include their game
  • Once you've played *one* of these games, all the rest are guaranteed to be a fairly small download...a whole page of webstartable games can fundamentally change the download problem (assuming each game gets significant traffic from the page)
  • A convenient page to point people to if they say "you can't write good games in java"
  • Free publicity and exposure for all java games developers. Ultimately I'd like to include some kind of ranking system e.g. most-popular, etc.
  • Make it easier for everyone here to see what each other is up to

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #68 - Posted 2004-02-23 14:19:07 »

I like were you are going with this Blah...

I think that page should be linked from the java.net community page.  A place where newbies will find it.  Actually Java.com is where it really needs to be.  A gallery of good Web Start-able games seems perfect for Java.com,  What they have so far isn't all that impressive, in terms of number of offerings.

Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #69 - Posted 2004-02-23 14:21:48 »

Perhaps the real anomaly here is that we are allowed to embed a complete JRE and hide it in some dark forgotten corner of the users disk system. Would it perhaps be better if there were only public JREs (from Sun anyway) and that the reasons why using a private copy is currently desirable were addressed.
(The technical issues should be in a separate thread). Now this may still mean different applications installing separate versions (because backward compatibility isn't perfect), but at least if there is already one copy of 1.4.2_03 there would be no need for another.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #70 - Posted 2004-02-23 14:28:04 »

> xyzzy
You can't do that here.


Well, sadly to say for Sun in this case, AF will be returning to Jetting. Concept proved, idea rejected, opportunity gone. No doubt it the issue will resurface...

It'll shrink my game by 20% and make it faster too so it's not like it's a big loss for me, and it's a neat coup for Excelsior, and more egg/face interface for the GTG Cheesy

Cas Smiley

Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #71 - Posted 2004-02-23 14:38:32 »

Well, personally, I don't believe that web-start is really the way to go.  When I investigated it, I was quite horrified to discover that one needs to digitally sign the jars for it to work.  Having a good bit of professional experience in cyrptography and PKI, I know that the requirements to get a real code signing certificate are beyond most indie developers.  Thus we are stuck using a self-signed certificate, which I will point out leaves you with a dialog box that explicitly states:

"It is highly recommended not to install and run this code."

Do you really want your users exposed to that?  Honestly, I think a downloaded, self-executing jar (possibly wrapped with an installer that makes shortcuts that are platform appropriate) is much preferable.

But more to the point, I'm with Cas here.  I'm using Jet now, and will continue to do so in the future.  And while I might try also distributing a self-executable jar for the Linux/Mac users, I will certainly not be creating a web-start version.

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #72 - Posted 2004-02-23 15:08:35 »

Has anyone considered using a Non-Sun JVM that is smaller, open source and you can pick and choose what you want to ship (and tinker with the JVM itself if you wanted)?

http://www.sablevm.org/

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #73 - Posted 2004-02-23 15:38:06 »

Yes, I have.  In fact, here's a great listing of a lot of them:

http://joeq.sourceforge.net/other_os_java.htm

The problem I had was the need for fast blitting.  This narrows the choice to VM's that support Java 1.4, to either make use of BufferStrategy objects, or to use LWJGL which requires the nio package.  So far, I have yet to see any VM that supports Java 1.4.

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Member




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #74 - Posted 2004-02-23 15:40:08 »

Quote
I like were you are going with this Blah...

I think that page should be linked from the java.net community page.  A place where newbies will find it.  Actually Java.com is where it really needs to be.  A gallery of good Web Start-able games seems perfect for Java.com,  What they have so far isn't all that impressive, in terms of number of offerings.


Currently working on something along these lines for Java.Com

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #75 - Posted 2004-02-23 15:46:22 »

Quote
I like were you are going with this Blah...

I think that page should be linked from the java.net community page.  A place where newbies will find it.  Actually Java.com is where it really needs to be.  A gallery of good Web Start-able games seems perfect for Java.com,  What they have so far isn't all that impressive, in terms of number of offerings.


I'm working on the basis that if I suggest it to the GTG, nothing will happen even if they liked the idea. So I'm doing it myself, and at some point if they decide they like it and find the relevant people in Sun who have to be persuaded I'll happily talk to said relevant people. Eventually there might be a point where the GTG's efforts manage to get the rest of Sun to decide "hey, this is a good idea!", and then we could migrate it all onto java.com.

In the meantime, in the real world, I'm not waiting. If the GTG like it I'm sure this way is easier for them anyway (gives them ammo to persuade people in Sun, "Hey, look, someone's doing this anyway....wouldn't you prefer to have this in-house?" tends to work wonders especially when talking to corporate marketing people) so I assume they'll have no complaints.

Just so long as they don't do it in parallel secretly (because they're not allowed to tell us they're doing it) and make me feel like I've wasted my time...Wink

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #76 - Posted 2004-02-23 15:55:12 »

Quote


Currently working on something along these lines for Java.Com


Ah. Exactly.

EDIT: Athomas if you have anything to add please reply in the original thread:

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=Announcements;action=display;num=1077469870;start=0#5

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #77 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:02:27 »

Quote

The problem I had was the need for fast blitting.  This narrows the choice to VM's that support Java 1.4, to either make use of BufferStrategy objects, or to use LWJGL which requires the nio package.  So far, I have yet to see any VM that supports Java 1.4.


The free VMs usually support features from different versions of Java. That means although none of them supports Java 1.2 fully, they have 1.4 features implemented. I think gcj has some NIO stuff in it, so it could be worth a try.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #78 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:08:37 »

Quote
I know that the requirements to get a real code signing certificate are beyond most indie developers.

It doesn't look that hard although this may depend on your country. As far as I can see, an off the shelf Ltd company (~£100) will suffice in the UK although you may be able to get away with a lesser "organisation" (e.g. a partnership). The certificate itself will then be $200/year (from thawte.com). If you are doing business then these are hardly significant obstacles.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #79 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:09:37 »

Quote

Ah. Exactly.
Well  there you go - and it's not being done 'in secret'.  Excellent.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #80 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:28:18 »

Quote
Well, personally, I don't believe that web-start is really the way to go.  When I investigated it, I was quite horrified to discover that one needs to digitally sign the jars for it to work.
I consider this to be a "Good Thing"(tm).   If properly marketed it can give us some consumer confidence in the world of outlook virus distribution - where Microsoft has lost credibility - we can step in with SAFE downloadable games.
Quote
Thus we are stuck using a self-signed certificate, which I will point out leaves you with a dialog box that explicitly states:

"It is highly recommended not to install and run this code."

Do you really want your users exposed to that?

Well no, of course not.. but then you should only be using a self-signed certificate for testing.   If you use the Thawte "web of trust" I think you can get a certificate that works though is not personalized.  As others have stated - if you are realying intending to make money at this the cost of a certificate is not the show stopper.   IT IS a problem for the casual hobby programmer (me) since I don't expect to make much money on anything I do outside of my "real job".  At least I don't want to count on making money from my hobby programming.

Quote
And while I might try also distributing a self-executable jar for the Linux/Mac users, I will certainly not be creating a web-start version.

Why not?  You can do so for free and it provides the Linux/Mac users with a easy install/update/launch mechanism.  Seems pointless to leave it out simply because it isn't perfect.

Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #81 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:29:30 »

I disagree - an extra $200/year is a significant obstacle to the average indie developer.  Especially when it can be avoided by simply offering a standard downloadable installer, which is more in line with what the customer base expects anyway.

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Offline psiegel

Junior Member




Adamant about gaming.


« Reply #82 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:36:14 »

SWPalmer -

I think you may be confused as to exactly what Thawte's "web of trust" is.  I can tell you it's certainly not a means of getting a valid code-signing cert.  That's available at a cost of $200/year from Thawte.  Wait, you want a cert to secure your website for online purchasing?  That's a different kind of cert, also available for $200/year.  Trust me, I know the field, digital certificates 'aint cheap.

And it's not a matter of being able to swallow the cost, it's a matter of cost/benefit analysis.  There is a perfectly good way to distribute java based applications without incurring this cost.  Simply make it a downloadable installer.  Again, the customer base is already used to this method, and it's free.  I have yet to see any reason that webstart is a "good thing".

Paul

Paul Siegel
Adamant Games, Inc.
http://www.adamantgames.com
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #83 - Posted 2004-02-23 16:54:20 »

The patching feature is great, Paul. I like the code-signing too. But as you rightly point out, and I've been trying to say all along to Chris, that the developer market I am pitching at here is entirely different to the Big Studio / Corporate developer market. Java is competing with C++ hobbyists and Blitz Basic. The toolsets are considerably cheaper.

On a related note to another post - does anybody have a link to IBM's JDK 1.4 for Windows? I want to have a look in their license and see if there's anyone enlightened at IBM I can talk to about my ideas...

Cas Smiley

Offline nlmueng

Junior Member





« Reply #84 - Posted 2004-02-23 17:42:54 »

There is no public link to download the 1.4 for windows.  You need to download Websphere MQ(which is 75MB) to get it.  

Here is the link for that
http://www14.software.ibm.com/webapp/download/product.jsp?s=p&id=TDUN-49EVER&dt=TRIAL&v=5.3

You do not need to install the whole package,  after unpacking it asks you if you want to install mq.  Say no and then in <install di>\Source\MACVEnUs\Prereqs\JDK will be ibm-java2-sdk-140.exe

Hope this helps

nathan
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #85 - Posted 2004-02-23 18:45:10 »

Quote
I disagree - an extra $200/year is a significant obstacle to the average indie developer.


I agree. But I'm going to aggressively push for people to use webstart anyway. It is a *lot* nicer way to start a java game than anything else - even an applet, which tends far too often to crash the web browser because of crappy browser JVM's and/or integration. Both MSIE and Mozilla have caused me serious pain with this in the past.

There is also the aspect that the game is always accessible once you've played it - you don't have to go hunting for the page. Playing for the second time doesn't require download it again (not true for applets), and updates are delivered automatically and, theoretically, incrementally, saving a lot of agony for dialup surfers.

Or, to put it another way, I never trusted WS and I hated it on windows - it was cranky buggy and never worked properly. On linux, where it works all the time (albeit with some serious bugs) it's made trying out games that people post on JGO *so much easier* and simpler that I've been converted in a very short time.

Finally, that popup is the same one I see every time I go to windows update - before I'm even allowed to see the darned list of available updates. Ditto if I try to play any Yahoo Games. etc etc etc. It's become like banner ads - you stop noticing after a while Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #86 - Posted 2004-02-23 19:10:09 »

Quote
I disagree - an extra $200/year is a significant obstacle to the average indie developer.

Do these people have any friends? Start a cooperative just for the purpose of authenticating their produce.
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #87 - Posted 2004-02-25 01:42:23 »

Quote


"It is highly recommended not to install and run this code."


By the way - in Java 1.5, that message is MUCH nicer.  It is more like the "do you trust this company [always/yes/no]?"   They got rid of the "highly recommended not" bit which is good.


Will.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #88 - Posted 2004-02-25 12:23:21 »

Quote

Do these people have any friends? Start a cooperative just for the purpose of authenticating their produce.


Ya know - that's a great idea!  Perhaps JavaGaming.org can offer a signing service to low-budget developers.  Though to be safe from trojans and such I think it would only be safe if the code that was signed was provided in source form and built by those offering the service.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #89 - Posted 2004-02-25 12:46:02 »

That's something I was going to do with Puppy Games.
(But the total lack of any publishable games from anyone yet means I'm not in a hurry to go spending hundreds of $ on a certificate...)

Cas Smiley

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