Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (81)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (499)
Games in Android Showcase (118)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (568)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  ignore  |  Print  
  Altering that JRE license to my own ends  (Read 12223 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #30 - Posted 2004-02-20 06:30:32 »

Precisely - the Xbox clinches the argument, completely. This is a major reason why smaller studios are not considering Java in their development (I discussed this at length with Pivotal Games in an interview 2 years ago). If it has to be rewritten to run on a console they might as well have started with C++ in the first place. Now they'll be able to move in the direction of a VM, but it'll be .net.

And 60% of all new PCs is not a good number. It's a terrible number compared to 100%, which is the availability of PCs that can run a C++ application, or a Blitz Basic application. The sales of a game are based on factors, not addition. 65% of PCs have OpenGL drivers, 60% of them eventually have a JVM... so that's suddenly looking like 39% (I know there's some overlap, but my stats seem to show that it's surprisingly small). But there it is, in black and white: you're competing against technology with 100% availability and penetration and it makes sound business sense to go with 100%, not 60%.

Cas Smiley


Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #31 - Posted 2004-02-20 07:16:43 »

Quote
And 60% of all new PCs is not a good number. It's a terrible number compared to 100%, which is the availability of PCs that can run a C++ application, or a Blitz Basic application.

60% of the new PCs is a good number for a nice 3d Java game, which won't run on older PCs anyway.

Quote
The sales of a game are based on factors, not addition. 65% of PCs have OpenGL drivers, 60% of them eventually have a JVM...

Any PC which could run a nice 3d Java game will have an OpenGL driver because most of them use an ATI or Nvidia graphics card.
A Java game using modern 3d graphics addresses the same market full-price 3d games do, and they can use OpenGL; in fact IMO the best 3d PC games use OpenGL (*).

If you don't talk about 3d Java games, or mean 3d games à la Blockout, it's another topic, you're right. We've just to decide whether we talk about apples or oranges.

By the way: do you imagine how many Windows patches, IE patches, Anti-Virus definition files, etc the usual Internet user had to download during the last three months to due viri which reached a majority of the "usual" Internet PCs...?
How many megabyte this have been and will continue to be in the future? Since ~50% of the Win-NT4/5 soure is "open" now, viri will get even more clever in future. :)
(Two of the most "successful" viri corrupted Windows in a way it had to be shutdown every minute, so users had to install these patches or they couldn't use their PC anymore).


(*) Some graphic card manufactures support "just" the OpenGL stuff ID's engine(s) need. This can be a problem if your game uses more OpenGL. For example some modern ATI graphic cards tend to show problems when it comes to full OpenGL.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #32 - Posted 2004-02-20 07:48:38 »

With respect you have no idea what you are talking about Smiley Pop along to Dexterity.com's forums for discussion with people wot are far cleverer and richer than me who really know wot's wot.

I'm trying to highlight here that Java technology faces competition from other technology and that the solution I'm proposing is a seed technology to grow Java in a space where it can't currently compete.

It would be interesting if Chris could list the spaces in which Java is currently trying to penetrate and then list the competition in each space and outline quickly what the strategy for Java to compete in each area is.

As I see it I don't see any Java strategy for competing with C++/SDL and Blitz Basic in the blossoming garage games department. My solution is to release a very, very cutdown subset of the VM, and sell it as an actual product in exactly the same way that Jet sell their compiler, or Blitz sell their IDE. Got any better ideas that will actually address the issues?

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #33 - Posted 2004-02-20 08:06:32 »

Quote

Any PC which could run a nice 3d Java game will have an OpenGL driver because most of them use an ATI or Nvidia graphics card.

Neither of my machines (P4 3.06GHz, Athlon XP 2500+) will run Alien Flux because the level of OpenGL is inadequate. Both have ATI based video cards as they weren't purchased for gaming they aren't the top range models. My wife's machine (celeron 1.7) won't run it either although it runs my children's games perfectly well.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #34 - Posted 2004-02-20 08:20:38 »

Personally, I think Cas is massively exaggerating the realistic penetration of .NET. I suspect the reason behind this is really not that he's so concerned about strict penetration percentages, but because he's concerned that MS has over 2000 developers on .NET, and an equally huge marketing presence, AND have the power to "force" it upon their installed user-base (...because this is what MS *always* do). In comparison, Sun has no reputation, skill etc in spreading client technologies (I can, in fact, only think of Sun's failures in this area, but that's probably my ignorance of their history rather than anything else). So, it's really important to people making platform decisions to see some evidence from Sun that they are actually fighting this war; so far, the only headline has been a single battle (getting the JVM onto some huge name box-shifters that account for a substantial percentage of the new PC market). But there are many more to come, not least when it comes to "existing PC's" which vastly outnumber new ones.

I agree that .net won't ever make it to many windows PC's, but I know most will be owned by the corporates who won't allow it, AND who have the power to not deploy it. Usually, home users do not have the option; corporates get "sepcial" versions of windows that they can customize, and effectively remove components that home users have no GUI / option / etc to remove.

So, if we look at the home-user market only, I'm afraid we're likely to see a much bigger penetration of .net than in general.

Quote

Java is currently shipping on approx 60% of all new PCs, a percentage that continues to rise as almost every day new Manufacturers are agreeing to OEM the JRE.


Great, how long has this been going on? Assuming you're counting from around the JavaONE when the first lot were announced, that's something like hundreds of extra manufacturers by now. Where's the list?

...and why isn't this information displayed anywhere prominent on JGO, given how incredibly important it is to a java games developer?...

Quote

Independent of OEM'd JVM's we're currently seeing over 2M downloads of 1.4 per month from Java.Com. 1.4 includes the auto-update feature, so all these PCs will continue to have the latest version of Java installed.


Sadly it's another of those "windows-only" features (which, BTW, are starting to worry me - with 1.4.x. and now 1.5.x we're seeing less and less WORA and more and more "windows gets extra features which the other platforms don't". I have seen Java go from non-WORA to very good WORA and now it's slightly sinking back again Sad ).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #35 - Posted 2004-02-20 08:48:37 »

I am largely unconcerned with the linux desktop Java "market" (a term which is rather stretched in definition don't you think?) but MacOS has continued excellent support for Java and with Sun looking after Windows, the actual desktop market is perfectly catered for in terms of auto-update.

I am not exaggerating .net figures: I am presenting the worst-case scenario for Java. The best-case scenario is that .net is abandoned as a client technology and never makes it to XBox. That is even more unlikely than the other extreme.

But having highlighted the threat from .net, what's the strategy to deal with it?

And having highlighted the (very reall, 100% actual) threat from C++ and RAD BASIC languages, what is the strategy to deal with these?

I suspect that a clued-up exec will realise there will be a bloody battle fought for hearts and minds with four basic technologies (Java, .net, C++, 4GLs). At this crucial stage mindshare in the games development space is more important than any idealistic view that the JRE be "unfragmented". We're not talking about user's Java experience here; we're talking about developer's Java experience. Remember that the solution I propose is entirely forward-compatible with the J2SE-on-every-desktop strategy. This is a developer solution that wins a different battle to the one that J2SE is fighting. It's training recruits. It's about building a foundation in a place where this is no foundation or strategy.

I don't want to sound like I'm the dog's bollocks or anything but what would the PR blow be if I decided to abandon Java for my next project and switch to Blitz or C++? (I see no value in .net yet) Do you understand that I'm quite well known on the net in general for Java advocacy? What would the effect be for me to say "It's not going to work out like this."?

Cas Smiley

Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #36 - Posted 2004-02-20 09:41:36 »

Quote
With respect you have no idea what you are talking about :)

What I said has been correct but it depends on which market you and me are talking about, as I said: "if you (..) mean 3d games à la Blockout, it's another topic, you're right. We've just to decide whether we talk about apples or oranges."

Quote
Pop along to Dexterity.com's forums for discussion with people wot are far cleverer and richer than me who really know wot's wot.

Dexterity offers a lot of games in the style of Blockout. So your concerns on the JRE size is just about casual games? (No need for 3d in most cases.) Then you should say this every time you complain about the JRE's size.

For larger/complexer 3d Java games, or CD releases, the JRE size just doesn't matter at all.

Quote
As I see it I don't see any Java strategy for competing with C++/SDL and Blitz Basic in the blossoming garage games department.[/i]

How could a a high level OO platform like Java compete with Blitzbasic? Why should it? You want Java to be cut down so that it can compete with Blitzbasic? Hm...

I think the suggestions from Chris and others are OK. If you want Java as platform you've to stay with its size and lib selection. If you want an Embedded Java, use such one.

I think the JRE size isn't a problem: the JRE is a platform, not just a game API. Some pointed out that the size increase has to do a lot with international stuff and so on. Which is a good thing - look at the increasing Eastern-European, Asian, etc. market, and so on.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #37 - Posted 2004-02-20 09:53:21 »

Quote

Neither of my machines (P4 3.06GHz, Athlon XP 2500+) will run Alien Flux because the level of OpenGL is inadequate. Both have ATI based video cards as they weren't purchased for gaming they aren't the top range models. My wife's machine (celeron 1.7) won't run it either although it runs my children's games perfectly well.

I don't know what OpenGL level Alienflux needs. I know that ATI's driver usually support OpenGL in a manner they run ID's OpenGL 3d-engine OK. I've to add however that it looks like their driver improve every monthly version what's conerning OpenGL.

If your PCs run OpenGL 3d games (one of those many ID-engine based one), JOGL/Xith applications should run too (it depends on which OpenGL version they require but that's not the problem of the JRE, SUN, or Mr. Bean)

Have you updated your ATI drivers on your PCs? Which ATI model do you use?

Finally I've to add that the 3d binding is important but currently unfortunately not part of any JRE, so strictly speaking not SUN's problem, but ours. Is this off-topic? :)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #38 - Posted 2004-02-20 10:07:45 »

Nearly off topic Wink I have decided that it would be far better now that Sun do not try and include a binding in J2SE. Because it will be the wrong binding Wink It will also be doing the opposite of what I want to see happening to the JRE - I want a smaller, modular JRE, not an ever-larger monolithic Swiss army knife + kitchen sink.

Back on topic: I am exactly saying that Java is competing for mindshare in companies like Dexterity to produce "casual" games. But I am not talking about just casual cames - I'm talking about indie games, which range from the very simplistic Dweep Gold and Fitznik right the way up to the fantastically presented Hamsterball or Starscape Moonpod. There is nothing "casual" about Hamsterball or Moonpod. The only thing all the various indie games have in common currently is that they are of downloadable size and that they are extremely simple to install and run.

Download size kills this market. Complexity kills this market. Even reliance on OpenGL drivers is detrimental although not nearly as bad as some indies think (a lot of them are still deliberately working to DX5 level to capture more customers).

I know full well that Sun has sights only on the big studios like EAGames and Take2 and Sony. Otherwise I'd see a product roadmap outlining how Java was going to help the indie market sector. Currently there is no place for Java in this massively expanding industry sector except if you buy Jet. Sun are simply ignoring a marketing opportunity. I can understand Sun being blind to it because they have no idea about this market but I am expecting 100% support and commitment from the GTG...

Cas Smiley

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #39 - Posted 2004-02-20 11:39:02 »

Quote


Download size kills this market. Complexity kills this market. Even reliance on OpenGL drivers is detrimental although not nearly as bad as some indies think (a lot of them are still deliberately working to DX5 level to capture more customers).


Cas....if a lot are working to DX5 level then why not just use Java 1.1?  It ships with EVERY PC that had a browser!  I mean, come on.  Dweep could not have been done in 1.1?  For goodness sake, check out Command and Conquer: Attack Copter from EA http://www.eagames.com/free/home.jsp?ncc=1.  If this could be done in 1.1, surely Dweep Gold or BlastORama could have.  It was purely a technology comfort decision on the part of the developer to not use Java.

In fact, if the developers HAD chosen to develop these games using Java 1.1 they would have had MORE market penetration (Mac and Linux).

Quote

I know full well that Sun has sights only on the big studios like EAGames and Take2 and Sony.


Not true.  Yes we are focusing time there but if that's all we cared about, why would we spend time here?  Why would we work to build Java.Net?  I think that is a bit unfair Sad

Quote
Otherwise I'd see a product roadmap outlining how Java was going to help the indie market sector. Currently there is no place for Java in this massively expanding industry sector except if you buy Jet. Sun are simply ignoring a marketing opportunity. I can understand Sun being blind to it because they have no idea about this market but I am expecting 100% support and commitment from the GTG...


Cas, not everything is available for public consumption.  Why would I put up information that kills possible market advantages for us and let's competitors know EVERYTHING we are up to?  Do you really think that everyone that hits these very public forums are Sun's friends?  There is a big difference between a /. type of forum where everyone is anon. and has no accountability.  Should I spill everything about GDC right here?  No suprises, no "event"?  Sorry.  Can't do that.  I am accountable to a publically traded company.

Companies like Sun disclose deep roadmaps all of the time.  It's done under an NDA and it's not given to everyone, true.  I don't think that we have been anything less than 100% supportive of this community since the beginning.  Infact, this site came into being with us doing what WE (the GTG) thought was right, not what Sun thought we should be doing.

Also, it's a bit insulting to say that we are ignoring a market opportunity when we in the GTG have tied our livelyhood and personal responsibilities to driving these technologies into the games marketplace.  Sun had given us the mandate to go after the market and we are doing everything we can to hit all fronts.

Again Cas, the real issue I sense here is your frustration as you believe that the way Java is required to be packaged is not suited entirely to your needs. (Look at the title of your thread).  I don't know what else to tell you buddy!  We are working to make Java technology better for game development, indies and the big guys alike, and while the solutions may not meet everyone's expectations 100% of the time across the board, you have to admit that Java game developers are a lot better off now then they were 3 years ago due, in no small part,  to the efforts of the GTG.

-ChrisM

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #40 - Posted 2004-02-20 12:40:17 »

EDIT: I'm doing a slight thread-jack here, and ignoring the JRE licensing issues just to look at the issues I'm highlighting in this post. I realised it could look quite confusing without this explanation Smiley

Quote

Cas, not everything is available for public consumption.  Why would I put up information that kills possible market advantages for us and let's competitors know EVERYTHING we are up to?


Because the value of letting all your *partners* (i.e. people trying to develop games in java) know what's happening outweighs the probably tiny advantages you give to competitors. AFAICS this is the fundamental equation that justifies Sun supporting java games developers publically instead of behind closed doors.

As a matter of interest, I would love to know what competitors you feel are going to benefit by any non-trivial amount to know roadmaps etc for Sun's involvement in java games development. I personally can't think of any examples right now?

Quote

 Do you really think that everyone that hits these very public forums are Sun's friends?  There is a big difference between a /. type of forum where everyone is anon. and has no accountability.  Should I spill everything about GDC right here?  No suprises, no "event"?  Sorry.  Can't do that.  I am accountable to a publically traded company.


You cannot support java games development with that attitude; this is probably why people like myself feel you are not managing to properly support the community and that you are damaging the community - this attitude would certainly prevent you from doing these things.

In answer to your specific examples, what most good marketing companies (like MS) do is to tell specialists and partners in advance roughly what will be announced - and this is usually done in public, but because they don't send a press release to the news sites etc non-specialists don't notice.

Then, at the event, you still get your big exciting moment - but you have the benefit that you haven't caught your partners by surprise, and that when the news people etc go looking for commentary by specialists, they get some good responses because these people have had time to think about it and worked out how great it really is. (PS if you're running a community like JGO it's usually a good idea to in fact hand out lots of "quick reference/FAQ" material before the event that doesn't give much away but contains brief explanations of where the new thing will add value - so that when they're contacted by press etc, or write editorials in magazines etc, they don't misinterpret your message).

Just to be clear, what you might expect someone to reveal "roughly" would be a lot more than the GTG usually does - and a lot earlier. For instance, last year you told us not to start a Wiki and various other activities but said you couldn't tell us why. What you should have done (now that I know what you were keeping secret!) was to say "We will very soon have a lot of extra community features, a special site, dedicated resources within Sun that include lots of community involvement things that let you work together and share info, code, and project planning. The precise nature of all this will be announced during March". Instead you said nothing, and only belatedly responded to the Wiki attempts by saying please don't do it it will be wasted effort. You told us after we'd wasted the time thinking about it and starting it etc; you could so easily have told us weeks before.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2004-02-20 12:48:37 »

WHS. And it was just that strategy that caused a lot of friction when the GTG came into being.

As far as the efforts of the GTG are concerned, I am still in exactly the same position I was in 3 years ago when I started out - nothing has changed. And so are all the other developers I talk to in my market segment. Not a one of them wants to use Java, more or less precisely for the reasons I outline. The situation is not improved at all!

Dweep could not have been written in 1.1 Java. First of all it's fullscreen, which couldn't be done in 1.1. Secondly it's only 1.3MB download or something. He'd have had to ship a 5MB VM with the game (and continue to do so to this day) which would quadruple his bottom line costs. Remember he started in 1998, when most of the world was just waking up to 56k modems, and server bandwidth was considerably more expensive. And besides, Dweep is a 6 year old game, and it looks it. You need to give people something better or there's still no concrete incentive.

I'm going to keep hassling you about this and I won't stop until I'm dead Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #42 - Posted 2004-02-20 13:39:12 »

How would you characterize a game like Tribal Trouble? The internal web start demo has code, terrain, water, sky, GUI, 2 bitmap fonts, a single unit (out of 6 in the final game), and a single building (out of 4 in the final game). And guess what? It's 2.9 megs! Adn we intend to keep the game that way (preferably < 10 megs) and distribute it through the internet, so we pretty much share most of Cas' griefs.

Bottom line: this is not a problem converning developer! The topic title is probably just Cas' cocky way of attracting attention...

- elias

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #43 - Posted 2004-02-20 13:41:16 »

Quote
He'd have had to ship a 5MB VM with the game (and continue to do so to this day)...

I think Chris' point was that if it were coded to Java 1.1 that shipping a VM would not be necessary since 1.1 VMs were on most of the target machines.

I see your point about not much changing form your perspective - since you are doing LWJGL (hosted on SourceForge, not java.net) independently from the 'Core APIs'.  But to others the GTG's efforts in establishing the Core APIs and open sourcing them in an attempt to please more people by having 'Sun supported' gaming APIs yet allowing development to move at a faster pace than could be done through the JCP (as JSR-134 was cancelled partly for this reason I believe) are welcomed changes.   So I would give the GTG credit where it is due.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be voicing our concerns for areas where the GTG could improve.  I agree with blah, that the communication level can be improved without spoiling the surprise.  Perhaps key players at the indie level could sign some NDAs as well to become more involved.  I'm sure Cas has would have no problem signing an NDA if you included him in the discussions about open sourcing the core APIs - his experience with LWJGL would likely have been valuable.

Again we are aware of small hints of what will be announced at GDG... Jeff mentioned work on some server-side technology...  I hope that there are some industry partners that have signed the NDA for that one.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #44 - Posted 2004-02-20 15:00:02 »

Quote

Again we are aware of small hints of what will be announced at GDG... Jeff mentioned work on some server-side technology...  I hope that there are some industry partners that have signed the NDA for that one.


...if we're anything to go by, not many. I wanted to sign that NDA more than twelve months ago!!! (I can probably dig out copies of the emails concerned). Back near the start of January, I once again brought it up with Chris and he said sure - but again nothing happened.

And we're one of the few companies that really know about this stuff - going by my research of the last almost 6 years, we're in the top 10 companies worldwide in terms of understanding the hard end of server-side game development (i.e. discounting all those with experience of lobby games, battle.net, yahoo games, etc). That's without looking at all the people I know personally who specialise in this area, and what I know of their past successes and failures, and what they need and look for on future projects. Surely something of some value there in terms of partnership?

At the moment, my current expectation is that Jeff's going to reveal something at the GDC that is in direct competition with at least some of our commercial activities, and that the GTG has known this would be the case for some time but decided to work against us rather than with us. I'm not being paranoid - look at the history and circumstances surrounding JInput. Then bear in mind the extent to which we've not even been allowed to *see* the NDA that so many times now we've been told we could/should/must sign.

Shrug. So, we get on with our own work, and just have to assume the worst - that in March something bad will happen - when we could instead have been sharing tech, experience, and skills with Sun. If anyone has an explanation of why this is the status quo, I'd love to hear it; it seems a weird situation to me, and yet also seems not uncommon at the moment.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #45 - Posted 2004-02-20 15:31:44 »

Ok, so this thread is way off topic, so this will be the last time I post off topic.

Quote

Because the value of letting all your *partners* (i.e. people trying to develop games in java) know what's happening outweighs the probably tiny advantages you give to competitors. AFAICS this is the fundamental equation that justifies Sun supporting java games developers publically instead of behind closed doors.


So ok.  If you want to formalize as "partners" then are you suggesting a partners program to distribute information that, while not under nda, but is otherwise sensitive?

Quote

You cannot support java games development with that attitude; this is probably why people like myself feel you are not managing to properly support the community and that you are damaging the community - this attitude would certainly prevent you from doing these things.


I am still at a loss in understanding how you think we have  not supported this community?  Community forums? Code repository? Access to APIs? Regular participation in the community?  If by lack of support you mean that we can't address EVERY single concern of the entire community then is that a reasonable request?

Quote
As a matter of interest, I would love to know what competitors you feel are going to benefit by any non-trivial amount to know roadmaps etc for Sun's involvement in java games development. I personally can't think of any examples right now?


To be blunt, if we believe that there is a business reason to not disclose what we are working on, to a public forum, that is a business decision we have made and stand by it.  Would you be willing to share with the community all of the partners you are working with, details about the techology you have in development, and provide them to a mechanism that has no controls around them?  Let everyone see who and what you are specifically targeting so that they can approach them as well.  I dare say that Sun Microsystems would have much more at stake in this scenario then GrexGames would;)

Quote
In answer to your specific examples, what most good marketing companies (like MS) do is to tell specialists and partners in advance roughly what will be announced - and this is usually done in public, but because they don't send a press release to the news sites etc non-specialists don't notice.


Incorrect.  Flat out incorrect.  MS and anyone else that is revealing information to partners that *may* be sensitive do so under non disclosure and most definately not in public.  Work in a systems channel long enough and you will see what I mean.

Quote
(PS if you're running a community like JGO it's usually a good idea to in fact hand out lots of "quick reference/FAQ" material before the event that doesn't give much away but contains brief explanations of where the new thing will add value - so that when they're contacted by press etc, or write editorials in magazines etc, they don't misinterpret your message).


Good point.  We will put together a general "pre GDC" document for this community as we get closer to GDC (See, I'm not all no,no,no Smiley)

Quote
Just to be clear, what you might expect someone to reveal "roughly" would be a lot more than the GTG usually does - and a lot earlier. For instance, last year you told us not to start a Wiki and various other activities but said you couldn't tell us why. What you should have done (now that I know what you were keeping secret!) was to say "We will very soon have a lot of extra community features, a special site, dedicated resources within Sun that include lots of community involvement things that let you work together and share info, code, and project planning. The precise nature of all this will be announced during March".


Good point.  I will work to better communicate our intent moving forward.


Listen all, it is important to understand that *WE DO* appreciate this community and all of the effort you put into it.  I truly believe that we are all here because we have the same passion to see Java technology succeed in game development, from indies to professionals.  I also think the fact that we are spending time hashing out these issues shows the strength of the community as well.

Like any good relationship, communication is the key and we will work to more effectivly communicate the GTG's intent moving forward.

Now that you have a community board, it is time to put them to work and outline how best to do this.

-ChrisM

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #46 - Posted 2004-02-20 15:33:57 »

Quote
How would you characterize a game like Tribal Trouble? The internal web start demo has code, terrain, water, sky, GUI, 2 bitmap fonts, a single unit (out of 6 in the final game), and a single building (out of 4 in the final game). And guess what? It's 2.9 megs! Adn we intend to keep the game that way (preferably < 10 megs) and distribute it through the internet, so we pretty much share most of Cas' griefs.

Bottom line: this is not a problem converning developer! The topic title is probably just Cas' cocky way of attracting attention...

- elias



So, if you had a customer who wanted to play this game do you think a one time download of 12-14MB would deter them?  Hell, you buy WinXP today and you need to download over 80MB of patches and updates.  It has been so problematic for MS that they are releasing patch CDs to consumers!

-ChrisM

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #47 - Posted 2004-02-20 16:15:47 »

Quote
Ok, so this thread is way off topic, so this will be the last time I post off topic.


Yes, that was my fault.

So I've opened a new thread for this topic, and would appreciate it if you'd continue the discussion here:
http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=suggestions;action=display;num=1077304454;start=0#0

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #48 - Posted 2004-02-20 16:34:15 »

Quote
So, if you had a customer who wanted to play this game do you think a one time download of 12-14MB would deter them?

Yes, Chris, this is exactly what we're saying, and I've got hard-earned proof of it, and also a lot of evidence from other key players in the industry. Please understand that I think that Webstart is tha b0mb, but it only works for some people, and definitely not in this space.

Cas Smiley

Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #49 - Posted 2004-02-20 17:19:56 »

Quote
Nearly off topic ;) I have decided that it would be far better now that Sun do not try and include a binding in J2SE.

Hm, I'd really love to see a J2SE with OpenGL/3d binding. But since it's nearly off-topic I won't continue dreaming.

Quote
Back on topic: I am exactly saying that Java is competing for mindshare in companies like Dexterity to produce "casual" games. But I am not talking about just casual cames - I'm talking about indie games, which range from the very simplistic Dweep Gold and Fitznik right the way up to the fantastically presented Hamsterball or Starscape Moonpod. (..) The only thing all the various indie games have in common currently is that they are of downloadable size and that they are extremely simple to install and run. Download size kills this market. Complexity kills this market. Even reliance on OpenGL drivers is detrimental although not nearly as bad as some indies think (a lot of them are still deliberately working to DX5 level to capture more customers).

OK, we talk about independent developers then. Their games range from Blockout likes to Moonpod likes.

I think you dig in your own points with your above paragraph(s): while for Hamsterball the 6,5 MB size is indeed half of the current JRE, for Moonpood sized 35 MB (optionally deployed on CD) the JRE's size doesn't matter. Customers won't care if they download 35 MB or 45 MB (*). Let alone when the game comes on CD. Add better graphics/sound/data/bla to any game and/or more complexity and the less 10 MB for an initial JRE matter. With any additional Java game being on the market people will potentially just download the JRE once. Add to this that the majority of new PCs are being shipped with an JRE: I can't see your problem in the order of magnitude you describe it.

Plus: we're just talking about Win32 "indie games". Wasn't it you who said that now 50% (?) of your sold games go to Mac users? Do they need to install any JRE?

To "easy of installation": Why should it be more complex to start or install a Java app/game than a native game?

Quote
I know full well that Sun has sights only on the big studios like EAGames and Take2 and Sony. Otherwise I'd see a product roadmap outlining how Java was going to help the indie market sector. Currently there is no place for Java in this massively expanding industry sector except if you buy Jet. Sun are simply ignoring a marketing opportunity.

Well, supporting independent developers is good. As Chris said: SUN does do it already. Look at the many help and ideas and discussions the SUN people bring to this forum, to the gaming API projects etc. Who pays for this? SUN and/or the guy's sparetime. I am thankful for their help.

There are so few Java games no matter indie or fullprice that you can say: there are as many independent game developers using Java as there are fullprice game developers using Java.
If game developers love Java because they're more productive with it, they'll use it. If your game is superb you have the power to influence your potential customers. The fact that most game developers don't use Java (indie or fullprice) is hardly being influenced by the JRE size. The main reason is: there are hardly professional game developers knowing Java or thinking Java would do the job. That's the problem. We're attacking Don Quichotte's windmills in this thread...


(*) If you bundle the JRE 1.42 with your game. Plus use a slightly better packer than zip, JRE takes 10 MB instead of 14 MB. You even squeezed the JRE more with another packer.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #50 - Posted 2004-02-20 17:35:47 »

Quote

I don't know what OpenGL level Alienflux needs. I know that ATI's driver usually support OpenGL in a manner they run ID's OpenGL 3d-engine OK. I've to add however that it looks like their driver improve every monthly version what's conerning OpenGL.
[...]


No, unfortunately that's not entirely true.

The ATI Rage (pro) chipset is just a pile of s-word :)

ID used special shaders in Q3 to bypass these limitations.

---

@topic (on of em)

I don't fully agree that a trimmed down version of the JRE is the best solution, because it leads to more overhead if the user installs several games.

What we really need is that what Cas already suggested several times. Native webstart (~1mb maybe) and a modularized JRE (1-3mb chunks).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #51 - Posted 2004-02-20 21:49:11 »

I say this time and time again in various different guises: users care 10x less for overhead than they care for complexity, but there is a threshold that cannot be exceeded for either.

The first rule of thumb is that the number of sales decreases by a factor of 100 for every additional installation step required. Yes, 100. This I have determined from my own controversially collected statistics and analysis of over 20,000 installations.

The second rule of thumb is that the number of downloads decreases exponentially with size but follows some interesting human characteristics that cause it to quantize. That is, there's a shallow curve between 1-5MB, followed by a steep drop and a shallow curve up to 10MB, followed by a steep drop and a shallow curve up to 100MB, followed by a steep drop and a shallow curve thereafter to ISO sized distributions.

Again, I'm asking folk who don't want to believe me to go and talk with the actual pros that are in this business. Head on over to www.dexterity.com/forums and register and start asking questions about Java and runtimes and size and complexity and so on. There's no point me repeating myself. You need grey hairs and acumen along with your proof. Go now!

Cas Smiley

Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #52 - Posted 2004-02-21 04:12:32 »

Quote
Where do you see Sun just lumping Java technologies together and creating useless profiles?

Sorry, weighing in a little late on this one, but I just noticed this and want to pick up on that comment.  While Sun hasn't (from my point of view) 'lumped Java technologies together to create useless profiles', they have seen fit to abuse the Java brand with the 'Java Desktop System' which I believe is a significantly worse offence.  Only my opinion of course.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #53 - Posted 2004-02-21 11:55:09 »

Quote

Sorry, weighing in a little late on this one, but I just noticed this and want to pick up on that comment.  While Sun hasn't (from my point of view) 'lumped Java technologies together to create useless profiles', they have seen fit to abuse the Java brand with the 'Java Desktop System' which I believe is a significantly worse offence.  Only my opinion of course.


Yeah, I know I left my self open a little bit on this one.  The difference is that the Java Desktop System is not labled as a Java technology, nor has Sun ever said it was.  It uses Java technology but is not a "Java (tm) Technology".  A bit different.

-ChrisM

Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #54 - Posted 2004-02-21 15:04:53 »

Quote

The difference is that the Java Desktop System is not labled as a Java technology, nor has Sun ever said it was.

Looks at latest marketing email from Sun ... doesn't say it isn't Java technology either. The two sentences containing the word Java are:

Quote
Simplify software deployment with the Java[tm] Enterprise System

Quote
A Sun Java Desktop System evaluation CD

There is no qualification anywhere in the email to suggest what Java means in this context.

Rather like Windows Server.NET really, and Microsoft later realised that was a mistake.
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #55 - Posted 2004-02-21 15:14:34 »

Quote

Yes, Chris, this is exactly what we're saying, and I've got hard-earned proof of it, and also a lot of evidence from other key players in the industry. Please understand that I think that Webstart is tha b0mb, but it only works for some people, and definitely not in this space.

Cas Smiley


Yes no maybe so. I understand your particular concern - one of being able to have a downloadable in the smallest possible size to attract customers for smaller click-through content types. This has been a discussion topic within my circles, particularly when it comes to a Java vs Flash scenario. However, the business development folks are okay with 'reasonably large' content  for games. They have come to accept it as part of the "downloadable games" environment.

It would be nice if the download of the content platform wasn't a larger download than my content, but it isn't the largest of my concerns at the moment - different motives and content types. I can see how this is a large problem for you however. I also see why it comes up from time to time in my meetings as well.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline William

Junior Member




No Exit


« Reply #56 - Posted 2004-02-21 15:29:35 »

Am I the only one who feels a bit uncomfortable about trusting the JVM that the user has installed to perform correctly?

I'm in the early planning stages for a small project that I'll either build in Flash or Java. Flash offers better media authoring, great support for both PC and Mac, but costs money. Java is free and I might need more advanced text and sound handling than I think may be possible or desirable to build in ActionScript (really depending on what kind of music I can get my hands on).

There is a good chance that my target users will be tech illiterates, or at least tech-trouble-dont-have-patience-fors, and my experience from releases at different Java companies in the telecom industry tells me that it is a very bad idea to release anything that hasn't been tested on the specific JRE version and platform.

I don't want to make the user go through the trouble of installing a JRE in addition to my app, especially if she already has a later version installed (one for which I haven't tested my app). I might actually just run the app directly from the CD without any installation whatsoever, so I will most likely just include a private JRE version with my app.

A smaller game VM would decrease the size of my app, but I'm not sure that will be a concern since I don't know if I'm going to support internet distribution yet. I want to stay away from direct installations through the web browser as I think it might be important for my app to offer an experience that doesn't connote "free hobbyist web-creation" (or worse, typical 1998's Java applet).

WebStart accessing a CD-rom or the network outside the browser could be an option for JRE installation since it allows me to target specific versions, but I don't really trust it as it doesn't work on my own computer (I've got JDK1.4.2 and others installed). I get a message that says "Bad installation. No JRE found in the configuration file." when I click a webstart app link (message is localized so exact wording might differ in English). I know I can probably fix it, but I'm not sure that also applies to my target user if she gets the same problem.

Edit: The point of my post is that configuration management is another strong reason for embedding a JVM with the app, and it would make sense for it to only contain the necesseties (like a game VM).
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #57 - Posted 2004-02-21 16:00:42 »

Another technology that requires *constant* downloads is QuickTime.  And Real for that matter.  Is it more difficult for people to dl these?  Again, I really understand the size concern being voiced by some, but agree with GP that the business rational behind it is becoming less and less important.

-ChrisM

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #58 - Posted 2004-02-21 17:35:45 »

Quote
Another technology that requires *constant* downloads is QuickTime.  And Real for that matter.  Is it more difficult for people to dl these?  Again, I really understand the size concern being voiced by some, but agree with GP that the business rational behind it is becoming less and less important.

-ChrisM


The important thing to note is that the concern tends to vary from region to region. In the United States, there are certain things that we can count on from a fixed cost perspective and broadband adoption perspective. Depending on the stats of the European stomping grounds (of which I have no hard demographics) that Cas operates in, he may see an entirely different picture. Much of what we've discussed here is a very  US centric approach to content distribution for a particular demographic. This demographic tends to be web savy, make a certain $$ per year, and not have any particular concern with respect to download time. That's my particular business case. Our economies of scale are going to be a little different that Cas'. It is entirely possible that from an adoption and fixed cost perspective, Cas' content may be a lot more expensive when all things are considered. First off, Cas' content isn't free for end users. He doesn't have a content pipeline which is making regular money to subsidize his fixed costs to decrease the development costs and therefore the expected sales price of his content. As I've been working with some folks in an international perspective I have come to understand and respect their concerns. Not saying that you don't Chris - just that the business structure under which we operate as (practically) infinitely larger and heavier capitalized companies may be impractical from his perspective.

Clearly there is nothing that the GTG can do to assist him in that particular  manner because you don't control the licensing or IP departments. However, it would be nice (and one of the things that I mentioned in my bid for a board seat) to take Cas under our collective wing AS a business case and help him get his content out so we can clearly understand that indie business, how to help it, and what is the reasonable road map that people in his position can follow towards success. Clearly, the java.com angle is an important one. We should gather demographics from that. The midlet sales area is another one that we should gather information from. While this information may not be publicly available at this time, there is no reason that it couldn't be shared with the 1 or 2 companies,projects that we take under our wing. This isn't to say that they would be guaranteed sales or success or anything - but we need to take one of these through the cycle and see what all of the issues are from start (development tool chain) to finish (someone buying content) and see the entire picture and how we could assist others in this manner. When I think of 'leadership', this is the type of thing that I think of. This is something within the GTG charter (because in order for Sun to turn a profit you'll have to understand how *someone* can capitalize in this space), and is in the best interest of both Sun, its partners, and the overall java gaming industry.

While there are other projects out there which are games and such, I believe PuppyGames is best positioned to take to the 'next level' and see how far we can take it.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #59 - Posted 2004-02-21 18:08:15 »

Quote
the business rational behind it is becoming less and less important.

myopic vision I'm afraid.  we've got a similar problem here in NZ, where those in Auckland (the largest city) tend to forget that there's anything outside of Auckland.  It's the same in the US.   Where they tend to forget there's anything important outside the borders of their country.

Anyone who thinks that download size is become less an issue is probably based in an area where broadband is widely available and relatively cheap.  Coming from a country where we have a monopoly telco in control of the broadband loop, and where broadband prices are therefore... unreasonable... a majority of internet users are still dialup based.  And I know the same is true for a lot of other places.

If you're targeting the US, then download size is of lesser importance, if you're aiming at another country, or internationally, then of course it's going to be an issue.  If you just want to target the broadest userbase possible, then it's still an issue.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

Pippogeek (39 views)
2014-09-24 16:13:29

Pippogeek (30 views)
2014-09-24 16:12:22

Pippogeek (20 views)
2014-09-24 16:12:06

Grunnt (45 views)
2014-09-23 14:38:19

radar3301 (28 views)
2014-09-21 23:33:17

BurntPizza (64 views)
2014-09-21 02:42:18

BurntPizza (33 views)
2014-09-21 01:30:30

moogie (42 views)
2014-09-21 00:26:15

UprightPath (50 views)
2014-09-20 20:14:06

BurntPizza (54 views)
2014-09-19 03:14:18
List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!