Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (79)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (476)
Games in Android Showcase (106)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (533)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
  ignore  |  Print  
  Altering that JRE license to my own ends  (Read 11775 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Posted 2004-02-19 08:16:12 »

While I'm in here and people are ranting here's some more fuel for the flames:

Do I have to fly to the States and throttle someone to get a free license to distribute a cut-down embedded VM? I mean, all I'm trying to do is spread a concept about. I don't need the license, I spent my hard earned cash on Jet, which is faster, smaller, and better but I'm still distributing my special VM with Alien Flux just to try and show other developers that a cut down VM is entirely possible and sensible.

And indeed, should I get a license to do this, why shouldn't anyone else? In fact, why can the licensing terms not be available to any distributor of Java desktop technology?

It's been a few years now since this question has been asked.

The latest development is that the VM has grown by another 10mb of cruft that we don't need.

Cas Smiley

[size=0]ps. If I could get the financial backers I'd be starting up LWJGL.com right now, with an actual bought license to ship a special Java Game Edition VM with the LWJGL built in to it and its own special Webstart. Any takers?[/size]



Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-02-19 10:04:12 »

Quote

The latest development is that the VM has grown by another 10mb of cruft that we don't need.

Approximates sizes
1  
2  
3  
4  
5  
1.3.0         7.5MB
1.3.1_03   8.8MB
1.3.1_06   5.3MB
1.4.2_03  14.5MB
1.5 beta1  13.78MB

Which releases are you comparing? I think most of those are the multi language versions (not sure what happened with 1.3.1_06). The file sizes for 1.3.* are taken from the copies on my server, while the figures for 1.4 and 1.5 are from the download page at Sun.

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-02-19 10:15:22 »

Cas,

The answer is, you can ship a stripped down VM (called Embedded Java) and there is a fee to do so.  The reason is simple: stripping the VM causes incompatability if the VM is installed and other apps try to use it.  Untill there is a pluggable model and a way to ensure the downloads of those additional components, the license won't change Sad

-ChrisM

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-02-19 11:10:29 »

You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

Try 7zipping the expanded 1.4.2 and 1.5 and you'll see
1.4.2_03: 8511kb
1.5: 15019kb
And that's the bottom line :/

You are in a twisty maze of little passages, all alike

I've got two threads going on here:

1. How am I going to convince developers to go with Java? I get the same response, over and over again, and no amount telling anyone otherwise is going to change the fact that that's the response I get: it's Xmb of cruft that I don't want to have to a) bundle or b) rely on being present. Remember what I said in the JDJ interview? It's the little guys, the hobbyists, who are your friends here. The next generation of game development has to start with bedroom programmers and indies, because mainstream have no reason to turn to it. It'll take ages to percolate into Big Studio. The longer you put it off, the longer it will take. You will be shafted when .net is available as standard on XBox and Windows as these developers will (wisely) turn to .net instead.

2. I'm saying that there is some serious money to be made by the company that puts LWJGL and a cut-down VM together as a piece of licensed technology because of its seriously small size and focussed function. We're not talking about J2SE here. This is a separate product we're talking about, based on Java technology. I could, I think, get some financial interests in setting up a technology company to develop this technology. How can you help?

Cas Smiley

You are in a twisty little maze of passages, all alike

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-02-19 11:12:29 »

...oh no! Haven't I been here before?...

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-02-19 11:31:36 »

Quote
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike


Zork rules!

Quote
2. I'm saying that there is some serious money to be made by the company that puts LWJGL and a cut-down VM together as a piece of licensed technology because of its seriously small size and focussed function. We're not talking about J2SE here. This is a separate product we're talking about, based on Java technology.


Sounds like the Embedded Java Chris mentioned.  If there is serious money to be made as you say then paying a license fee to create your embedded Java shouldn't be an issue - assuming the cost is reasonable.  Have you explored that option?  What's stopping you from going that route?

What about starting with J2ME and working out a 'profile' that fits the gaming space?  I think that's what is likely to happen for consoles, if anything happens.  

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-02-19 11:38:31 »

Hey Cas,

it looks like you found out one one reason why Java is not Open Source.  Grin

SCNR,

Jens

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-02-19 11:58:07 »

Quote
Hey Cas,

it looks like you found out one one reason why Java is not Open Source.  Grin

SCNR,

Jens


If you are talking about ensuring compatability and standards?  Then yes!  You have found a key.

Exits are to the north, and west. A closed door with a sign on it leads to the south, and a dark forbidding stairway leads down.

-ChrisM

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-02-19 12:23:35 »

>get license
You pick up the license.
>exa license.
You see the license
>tear up license
You can't tear up.
>edit license
I don't know how to edit.

Thread #2, create Java Game VM, I would very much like to explore but I've yet to nail down Chris for a serious talk about the business side of things as he's, er, always washing his hair, or something Kiss

Thread #1 is something that needs to be addressed, fast. A year later since I embarked on a "write a proper game in Java" crusade and still I get laughed at by the other indies when I tell them I use Java. We're not talking about proliferation of nuclear secrets here, just an excellent avenue to spread a bit of mindshare. I'll say no more about this now, because I'll go blue in the face if I have to repeat myself again about this point. These guys are used to entire, huge games that are smaller than your bloody VM. Go and see Hamsterball. How was I going to convince this guy to use Java? His game is only 6.5MB. He might conceivably put up with 4MB of bloat to be able to write it in Java but not 14MB. And you can bet he won't be switching any time soon. Nor anyone like him.

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-02-19 12:32:00 »

Alas, the distribution of the JRE issue has been beaten to death...
There are many things happening here.
Sun can/is looking into modularizing it for online installs.
Webstart can be used so you get the VM once and reuse it for many games - the total download for someone who tries just 2 or 3 games then becomes more reasonable.
Sun is working to get Java pre-installed on more systems.
There is the possibility to do an embedded java or J2ME version that is much more specialized for gaming.
Broadband market share keeps increasing.. making the size of a download less of an issue each day.

It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-02-19 12:56:44 »

and the Java Update mechanism should mean that once you have a JVM, keeping it up to date should be much less painful in download terms.
It would be nice if the online setup would look for existing JVM and just download the delta from the most recent version it found (perhaps it already does).
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-02-19 13:04:31 »

Quote
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

Try 7zipping the expanded 1.4.2 and 1.5 and you'll see
1.4.2_03: 8511kb
1.5: 15019kb
And that's the bottom line :/



Ok, so to put this into perspective, let's look at the argument of moving to Microsoft and XBox because the Java download is too big:

DirectX 9.0a - 35MB
DirectX 9.0a does not ship with current WindowsXP which means that people are either downloading it or it is shipping with games.

.Net - 23.6 MB
.Net only ships with winXP and will still require big downloads by the client.

Why is it, then, easier for a user to download these vs. Java?  It isn't.

The real issue here Cas is your desire to strip out VM in a way that is easier for the business you want to pursue.  I am not saying that you are wrong by any stretch, just pointing out that your argument is not really valid.

Now, if your argument is that LWJGL and a stripped down VM is purely a better game solution over anything else, then that is a different argument.  But you won't be able to  call it a Java solution as well because it has not passed the qualifications and testing to be classified as a "Java(tm)" component.  Then we are back in the realm of excellent technologies that have small groups and no money behind them who can't leverage the Java name and marketing, trying to become yet another standard.  Not saying that you still can't take over the world,  just is more difficult to get traction. Smiley

-ChrisM


Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-02-19 13:16:31 »

Quote
If you are talking about ensuring compatability and standards?  Then yes!  You have found a key.


I hope you know that this is about the opposite of what I wanted to say.  Wink

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-02-19 13:23:21 »

Quote
DirectX 9.0a - 35MB
DirectX 9.0a does not ship with current WindowsXP which means that people are either downloading it or it is shipping with games.

.Net - 23.6 MB
.Net only ships with winXP and will still require big downloads by the client.

Why is it, then, easier for a user to download these vs. Java?  It isn't.

I never said it was. I said that when (not if) M$ ships these two components across the entire Windows family - in particular, Desktop Windows and XBox - there's suddenly a massively powerful reason not to use Java as your VM of choice any more. You'll have two massive markets to play with. I'd rather have XBox over MacOS and Linux any day. But there won't be much in the way of competition for mindshare if progress to gain mindshare is still glacially slow. It's been several years now since I showed that Java technology is ready for the big time but I am still seeing exactly the same attitude to it from The Ordinary Common Or Garden Games Developer.

WRT to Sub-Java + LWJGL and not being able to call it Java - I have a real problem with this. It seems that Sun is entirely allowed to do this (well, why not? Sun invented it after all) and go creating lots of useless cut down specs that are no use to us like CLDC, CDC, J2ME, MIDP, etc etc. I'm saying: I want to create a J2ME profile, and market a reference implementation as a product, and license some of your J2SE code, and call it JavaTM Gaming, and own that product. That is exactly what I want to do*, and I would really like to get the ball rolling.

Cas Smiley

* and the best bit is, it's forwards compatible with J2SE. If it runs under "J2GE", it runs under J2SE.

Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-02-19 13:37:53 »

Quote
.Net - 23.6 MB
.Net only ships with winXP and will still require big downloads by the client.

It ships with 2003 server, but wasn't included with any of my copies of XP as far as I can tell. Windows Update keeps suggesting that I should download it.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:04:41 »

Quote


Thread #2, create Java Game VM, I would very much like to explore but I've yet to nail down Chris for a serious talk about the business side of things as he's, er, always washing his hair, or something Kiss


Ok, Cas is talking about MY hair? Wink
http://www.puppygames.net/pics/Crp1.jpg



Quote
Thread #1 is something that needs to be addressed, fast. A year later since I embarked on a "write a proper game in Java" crusade and still I get laughed at by the other indies when I tell them I use Java. We're not talking about proliferation of nuclear secrets here, just an excellent avenue to spread a bit of mindshare. I'll say no more about this now, because I'll go blue in the face if I have to repeat myself again about this point. These guys are used to entire, huge games that are smaller than your bloody VM. Go and see Hamsterball. How was I going to convince this guy to use Java? His game is only 6.5MB. He might conceivably put up with 4MB of bloat to be able to write it in Java but not 14MB. And you can bet he won't be switching any time soon. Nor anyone like him.

Cas Smiley


Perhaps not, but ask the Chrome guys if distributing Java with their game was worth it Smiley

-ChrisM

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:12:29 »

Chris, that's a 300mb demo written by a big studio with a publisher. It's not going to convince anyone trying to move in on the PopCap / GarageGames / BigFish / RealArcade market which is huge and far more important (financially) than the hardcore gamer market that Chrome is pitched at.

So answer me this: why the persistent refusal to acknowledge that there's a market, and a requirement, and a demand here? Honestly, if you sold me a license to ship my cut down JRE with my game for $500 (you are, of course, competing with Jet) there'd be a cheque in the post tonight. And from a lot of other developers. Can I have one please?

BTW, .net is not yet built-in to the Windows platform, but it is almost certain to be included in the next major release. What is Sun's strategy for competing against this, on all levels?

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:21:54 »

btw, I'm really very serious about that $500, I've got 3 publishers who want to shove a demo of AF out onto some CDs but I won't give it to them because they'd be distributing my sneaky VM and I don't want to do that. Can you do me a deal (phone) or do I go with Jet in the end?

Cas Smiley

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:34:54 »

Quote

I never said it was. I said that when (not if) M$ ships these two components across the entire Windows family - in particular,


Again Cas, Direct X and .Net are moving targets as well, so people will have to continue downloading these technologies to be current.  There is really no difference here from a downloading perspective.  The issue is what you want to distribute vs. what you would like to distribute.

Quote
WRT to Sub-Java + LWJGL and not being able to call it Java - I have a real problem with this. It seems that Sun is entirely allowed to do this (well, why not? Sun invented it after all) and go creating lots of useless cut down specs that are no use to us like CLDC, CDC, J2ME, MIDP, etc etc. I'm saying: I want to create a J2ME profile, and market a reference implementation as a product, and license some of your J2SE code, and call it JavaTM Gaming, and own that product. That is exactly what I want to do*, and I would really like to get the ball rolling.


So, first of all, CLDC and CDC are both in the J2ME camp and fit 2 footprints with different capabiltiies.  Both implementations are supported by the Java Community Process and must pass the verification and testing suites to be labled as Java(tm) technology.  

MIDP, or to be specific the J2ME Mobile Information Device Profile, is a profile built in the Java Community Process, not open source.  The technologies in MIDP are described as: "Each Java technology has an API specification, a reference implementation (RI), and a technology compatibility kit (TCK) associated to it."  All of those APIs sit in the JCP.

As well, the MIDP specfication is driven by Dr. James E. Van Peursem at Motorola and had an experts group of 52 companies defining the profile.  Where do you see Sun just lumping Java technologies together and creating useless profiles?

Look, if we want to get LWJGL done as a profile, fine.  Submit it to the JCP and get the pieces in place to make it an official Java(tm) technology.  Build on it and call it Java till the cows come home.  OR, do what we have been discussing: break it down, pay a licensing fee, and build a propritary solution.  I do not make the rules on this, there is an executive committee set up for that Smiley

On a personal note, I love that this community wants to push the boundaries of what Java is and should be for gaming but understand that we are talking about a technology standard that has fixed processes around it to protect it globally.  I think the work that Cas has done, and many others here, is awesome and sets a great direction but until we formalize the technologies we will run up against these issues.

-ChrisM

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:36:37 »

Quote
btw, I'm really very serious about that $500, I've got 3 publishers who want to shove a demo of AF out onto some CDs but I won't give it to them because they'd be distributing my sneaky VM and I don't want to do that. Can you do me a deal (phone) or do I go with Jet in the end?

Cas Smiley



If they want to put the demo onto a CD, what is the problem with shipping a full JRE?

-ChrisM

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:40:45 »

Space, mainly... I've got to share it with a lot of other stuff. I don't want to have to put any more effort into changing my installer and having multiple versions of my code out there at the same time. And most of all I'd like to be able to distribute it from my own site, kosher.

Cas Smiley

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:44:48 »

Quote


So answer me this: why the persistent refusal to acknowledge that there's a market, and a requirement, and a demand here?


I don't think we have EVER refused to acknowledge the demand and opportunity here.  Ever.

We KNOW it's a huge makert, but we are dealing with an equally huge problem.  Would it be better to have people DL'ing a new custom VM with each game they play or have a large onetime DL with MUCH smaller incremental updates
and, thus, each game they dl is smaller?  What happens to the developers who don't use the LWJGL solution? Are they stuck in the same boat as we are now or do they create their own solution around Java, further fragmenting the market and brand?

It is not just as simple as handing over a $500 license to do what you want with it. Unfortunately, the license for embedded Java is much more.

With regard to distribution, we have been working VERY hard with pc manufacturers to have Java ship on their systems.  In fact, Cas, you recently told me about the cheap Dell system your company purchased that came with Java 1.4 preinstalled.  So the distribution efforts are not ENTIRELY broken Wink

-ChrisM

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-02-19 14:47:12 »

Quote
Space, mainly... I've got to share it with a lot of other stuff. I don't want to have to put any more effort into changing my installer and having multiple versions of my code out there at the same time. And most of all I'd like to be able to distribute it from my own site, kosher.

Cas Smiley



Cool! So the issue is that the JRE size impedes what you want to do from a business sense.  I respect that, no problem.  So why not have the JRE included on the CD and have the game DL from your site after it is installed?

-ChrisM

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-02-19 15:37:22 »

Doesn't really seem to work that way with the punters. Honestly, you have no idea just how simple things have to be for 99% of the market. (Hurrah! Finally I can actually back this up with some acumen!)

We're not talking about fragmenting the Java brand at all. We're talking about getting developers to use the technology and enabling them to use it until your eggs have hatched. The new Dell was a nice surprise but there are very few new Dells in the world relative to the existing installed userbase and even if every Dell from here till Kingdom Come ships with a JRE on it it's still a massively reduced market to target. As opposed to when .net becomes the standard on Windows.

Look at it in terms of these percentages then:

95% of all PCs have Windows on. Ergo, eventually 95% of all PCs will have .net on them eventually. My market, if I target .net, is therefore 95% of the PC market.

50% of all new PCs or so are going to ship with a new JRE on them thanks to your efforts. Ergo, eventually 50% of all PCs will have Java on them eventually. My market, if I target Java, is therefore 50% of the PC market. I will make twice the money from .net.

So I'd really rather like to have the option to buy a $500 license to distribute my cutdown VM. It's embedded btw, it can't be used for any other purpose other than my one game, and it won't even run anything else particularly. C'mon! How many companies have people trying to give them $500!? to buy something that costs nothing! Help me out here.

Cas Smiley

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-02-19 22:50:06 »

Quote
95% of all PCs have Windows on. Ergo, eventually 95% of all PCs will have .net on them eventually. My market, if I target .net, is therefore 95% of the PC market.


This is a false statement because .Net will not run on all those PCs. It wil not even make it on to %50 of THOSE, even MS has said this.
Ergo, the .Net market is not %95 until %95 of the PCs being used are built after now, which most likely will never come to pass, and if so, longggggg timmmmme.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-02-19 22:55:53 »

Yes, but his logic for Java being on 50% of the PCs is flawed in the exact same way - so that sort of cancels out and you are left with the MS monopoly putting .net everywhere (that matters to Cas),  Whereas Java will still be significantly less than everywhere.  Which is partly why he chooses to bundle a JRE.. leading to issues with the size of that bundle... etc.

Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Member




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-02-19 22:59:43 »

Quote
Ergo, the .Net market is not %95 until %95 of the PCs being used are built after now, which most likely will never come to pass, and if so, longggggg timmmmme.

Java is currently shipping on approx 60% of all new PCs, a percentage that continues to rise as almost every day new Manufacturers are agreeing to OEM the JRE. By the time .Net is shipping on all 95% of Windows machines, Java will be shipping on significantly greater than 60% of all new Windows (and Linux and Mac) PCs

Independent of OEM'd JVM's we're currently seeing over 2M downloads of 1.4 per month from Java.Com. 1.4 includes the auto-update feature, so all these PCs will continue to have the latest version of Java installed.

This doesn't change the problem of enabling developers of casual games to take advantage of the latest JRE today, which I think is a valid issue, but it's not one that MSoft has solved with .Net.

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-02-19 23:04:37 »

info link
http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-02-20 03:39:38 »

Quote

Java is currently shipping on approx 60% of all new PCs, a percentage that continues to rise as almost every day new Manufacturers are agreeing to OEM the JRE. By the time .Net is shipping on all 95% of Windows machines, Java will be shipping on significantly greater than 60% of all new Windows (and Linux and Mac) PCs


Believe this news. While the numbers I hear still isn't 60%, it is significant on new PCs. The right content mix can get it out in other places as well. For example, I had a project that used JDK1.3.x for AOL. It was a requirement and as such it had influence on some things that AOL had to make available since they wanted to use the content.

Its 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. In order to work with some of the publisher types you have to have the whole Java issue sorted such that it doesn't become a support issue. They definitely frown on anything that can potentially cause a support issue of any kind.

While getting Java onto the client platform isn't one of my concerns, I do know that it is for more than a couple of publisher. Especially the smaller ones. The one issue that Microsoft did solve with .Net is providing an avenue to the console market. Since Xbox2 is still not beyond the veil of NDA I won't comment - but lets just say that it makes .net an appealing choice. Its not one that I'm particularly interested in right now, but is a path that is large enough to not be ignored as a valid option going forward. Especially for commercial projects. While managed DirectX cannot be guaranteed on PCs until Longhorn (at which time it will be 100%), its pretty much a given that it will be 100% on Xbox2.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-02-20 07:23:26 »

Quote

And ?
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

pw (22 views)
2014-07-24 01:59:36

Riven (20 views)
2014-07-23 21:16:32

Riven (17 views)
2014-07-23 21:07:15

Riven (20 views)
2014-07-23 20:56:16

ctomni231 (48 views)
2014-07-18 06:55:21

Zero Volt (44 views)
2014-07-17 23:47:54

danieldean (35 views)
2014-07-17 23:41:23

MustardPeter (38 views)
2014-07-16 23:30:00

Cero (53 views)
2014-07-16 00:42:17

Riven (52 views)
2014-07-14 18:02:53
HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 03:59:08

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:58:24

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:47:22

How do I start Java Game Development?
by ra4king
2014-05-17 11:13:37

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-15 09:59:54

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-06 15:03:10

Escape Analysis
by Roquen
2014-04-29 22:16:43

Experimental Toys
by Roquen
2014-04-28 13:24:22
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!