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  the anti-linux args (from AWT thread)  (Read 14669 times)
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Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #60 - Posted 2004-02-14 15:03:13 »

Quote
[...]
(3) For the record. I use NT.   I have to reinstall every 6 to 9 months.  Thats better then 95 and Me where it was every 2 to 3  months but still really crappy.  
[...]

Uptime: 2days 1hr 46mins 39secs
Installed for 216wks 2hrs 53mins 38secs
OS: Windows 98 (4.10 - 2222)

That's most likely the world record Grin

---

My router runs Linux (fli4l), my QW server runs Linux (Mandrake) but my box is (and always was) Windows.

Since there won't be any practical benefit I won't switch. But I guess I'll give it a try with my next comp.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #61 - Posted 2004-02-15 00:10:38 »

Quote
What applications are you refering to? Browser, mail, office, video, music, CD/DVD-burner, instant messaging, graphics programs, development tools, databases, webserver ...? Some games run only on Windows, but as a last resort you have wine (I use it to run Warcraft 3 for example.).

There is nothing as good as Visual Studio for C/C++ developers that I am aware of.  Some (poorly designed) web sites require IE + ActiveX controls.  OpenOffice is decent, but not compatible enough for many people if you need to work on documents that are also used with MS Office at work.  I have yet to see an ICQ compatible IM client that works properly or offers the same options.  GIMP is nice, but some people NEED Photoshop or Painter, etc.  I haven't seen anything like Microsoft Movie, or iMovie...
And ultimately MOST (for practical purposes it is close to 99.99%) PC games only run on Windows, I'm not sure how well WINE works for such thing, but in general emulators rarely emulate things 100%

Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #62 - Posted 2004-02-15 06:20:47 »

Quote

There is nothing as good as Visual Studio for C/C++ developers that I am aware of.

Visual Studio for C/C++ is a pain in the backside.
Its compiler breaks ISO C++ standards all day, produces corrupted code on a regular basis, and of course its code generation isn't optimal at all (compared to real compiler; Intels for example).
Its STL is slow and again not compatible with standards. The IDE isn't usable without a bunch of commercial (!) plugins, and so on. The only part which I like it's the debugger.

In short: A real Microsoft product. It's used by 3/4 of the C++ Win32 programmers because MS managed to eliminate the competition. As usual.
So if you say "there's nothing as good as MS VC++" you're partly right: if no competition is existing anymore, people have to stick with the really bad things.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #63 - Posted 2004-02-15 06:49:07 »

As much as I agree with you (I get the honour of using Visual Studio all day, like now) I think he meant, there's nothing as good as Visual Studio on Linux.

Last time I check the head runner was KDevelop, which he's right, isn't even as good as Visual Studio.

However, I believe some folks have been configuring Eclipse to run with C++.. now that would be neat.

Kev

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #64 - Posted 2004-02-15 07:07:09 »

Quote
There is nothing as good as Visual Studio for C/C++ developers that I am aware of.


KDevelop, Eclipse. (I don't use C/C++ very often.)

Quote
Some (poorly designed) web sites require IE + ActiveX controls.


ActiveX should be send to hell immediately. It's damn insecure and I already had to pay for it.

Quote
OpenOffice is decent, but not compatible enough for many people if you need to work on documents that are also used with MS Office at work.


We already had this topic and I'm still not sure, if you should blame Openoffice for it. If possible work with Openoffice's own formats. It's really a solid and fine piece of software. I was sceptical, but now I really like it. It just gives you the feeling, that it's very well designed.

Quote
I have yet to see an ICQ compatible IM client that works properly or offers the same options.


GAIM. It's actually one of the most active medium-sized opensource projects overall. If you don't like GAIM for some reasons, there are other IM clients out there.

Quote
GIMP is nice, but some people NEED Photoshop or Painter, etc.  I haven't seen anything like Microsoft Movie, or iMovie...


I don't know what Microsoft Movie or iMovie are, but every software, whose name starts with "Microsoft" was not designed to run on Linux. Grin If you need these apps running, buy CrossOverOffice and you run MS Office, Photoshop, ... on Linux.

Quote
And ultimately MOST (for practical purposes it is close to 99.99%) PC games only run on Windows, I'm not sure how well WINE works for such thing, but in general emulators rarely emulate things 100%


Don't think it are 99,99%. Unreal Tournament 2003, Quake 3, Doom 3, Neverwinter Nights, Rune, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Medal of Honour Allied Assault, Civilisation Call To Power, Heavy Metal F.A.K.K., Heroes of Might and Magic, Jagged Alliance 2 run on Linux. This list is obviously not complete, but you have to tell me the names of the thousands of high quality games running only in Windows to push the above games down to 0,01% of the market.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #65 - Posted 2004-02-15 07:24:22 »

Here's a website selling Linux games, so you can find out, if your favourite game has a Linux version: http://www.tuxgames.com/

Here's the wine game database, if your favourite game doesn't have a Linux version: http://appdb.winehq.org/appbrowse.php?catId=2

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #66 - Posted 2004-02-15 09:27:30 »

Quote
As much as I agree with you (I get the honour of using Visual Studio all day, like now)

I feel with you. :-)  I've been using it on a large C++ project and for the team and me it's been no fun. After the project the team jumped to CodeWarrior. Because it's been a media/game orientated project that's been great (no need for MFC or similar painful stuff).

Quote
I think he meant, there's nothing as good as Visual Studio on Linux.

Oh, I see, sorry for that (mastering English isn't easy.)
Well, then CodeWarrior you can use on Linux. Delphi I've loved but I don't know its cross-platform "brother" Kylix.

Quote
However, I believe some folks have been configuring Eclipse to run with C++.. now that would be neat.

Yes, this is what I've been reading, too.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #67 - Posted 2004-02-15 17:36:18 »

Quote
What applications are you refering to? Browser, mail, office, video, music, CD/DVD-burner, instant messaging, graphics programs, development tools, databases, webserver ...? Some games run only on Windows, but as a last resort you have wine (I use it to run Warcraft 3 for example.).


Where I work (and, as far as I can tell, in the majority of large organisations that use a lot of desktop computers) the killer app for windows is actually the Exchange/Outlook combo. They play nicely together and there is just no OSS alternative that does all the calendar and collaboration tools they do in addition to managing email and everything else.

I do think that Linux is only going to get stronger and that one of the things that really stands in our favour as java game developers is the ability to do a straight-out simultaneous release across the three major desktop platforms. I have also noticed that both Linux and Mac owners really love it when people release versions of games for their platforms and I suspect that combining decent games with simultaneous multi-platform release would be a recipe for customer loyalty with those groups.
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #68 - Posted 2004-02-15 18:24:59 »

Quote

Where I work (and, as far as I can tell, in the majority of large organisations that use a lot of desktop computers) the killer app for windows is actually the Exchange/Outlook combo. They play nicely together and there is just no OSS alternative that does all the calendar and collaboration tools they do in addition to managing email and everything else.


"Evolution" is exactly what you are looking for.

Btw. I think Outlook isn't a killer app, but a non-standard-conform and often insecure (depends on configuration) mail-client.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #69 - Posted 2004-02-15 19:49:28 »

While Visual Studio is far from perfect, and I've yelled at it on many occasions myself - it seems to do ok for simple C/C++ dev.  I agree with the points about non-standard conformance and such... and the fact that setting the flag to enable ANSI conformance (what should be a default) basically breaks all of the windows header files so that you can't program for windows and be ANSI compatible at the same time.  That IS pathetic.

I agree that ActiveX on a web page is a horrible abomination - but that doesn't stop the fact that some people NEED it.  Many web sites for instance require the media player ActiveX control and such. (Windows Media 9 appears to be a decent codec and is available on Mac too - obviously MS must have 'acquired' it elsewhere and run the real company behind it into the ground - it is their standard pattern of 'innovation'.)

Outlook/Exchange have some nice features (I hear - I have never used Exchange).  But they are more of a virus distribution system than something people want... of course I've used Lotus Notes and it doesn't have the virus 'feature' but is still quite a piece of crap.  I've used Evolution's email client & calendar and I don't particularly like it, but it seems ok.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #70 - Posted 2004-02-15 20:05:51 »

Quote


Don't think I can agree here. The situation has improved a lot over the past years.

Yes it has improved, however if you are looking for educational software (and in particular for children with learning difficulties) then most is windows only with a few offering Mac as well.
As I understand it Gimp is still short of a few important features notably colour management via ICC profiles. Then there is the problem of finding drivers for your printer that match the quality achievable under windows.
So while I probably could use Linux at work, for home I'm pretty much stuck with Windows.
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #71 - Posted 2004-02-17 09:25:57 »

Here are some pointers to educational software for children:

http://www.linuxforkids.org/
http://edu.kde.org/
http://wiki.debian.net/?DebianJr

I don't know if any of this helps you.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #72 - Posted 2004-02-17 09:38:44 »

Quote
Here are some pointers to educational software for children:

Thanks for the references. However one of my children has learning difficulties and in the (UK) catalogs of software for children with learning difficulties, Linux is entirely absent. OK, this is a specialist requirement, but that was really my point.
Open source software would help as in principle I could then modify it to make it easier for him to use (he has a number of usability issues that do not occur to most children).
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #73 - Posted 2004-02-17 13:38:08 »

Quote

Where I work (and, as far as I can tell, in the majority of large organisations that use a lot of desktop computers) the killer app for windows is actually the Exchange/Outlook combo. They play nicely together and there is just no OSS alternative that does all the calendar and collaboration tools they do in addition to managing email and everything else.


I don't really have time left for this thread Sad, but I just spotted this.

I used to run an IT consultancy specialising in "paperless office integration" - e.g. stuff like you create an agenda for a meeting, and the system automatically emails everyone immediately, then 24 hours before the meeting it sends them a reminder + a copy of the agenda, printing a copy on their fax machine/printer automatically (if they have one; useful for people at other offices), etc. This was many years ago, and predates most of Exchange, but ever since I've yearned for a neat solution to these problems.

Recently (last 6 months) linux has finally jumped very close to providing it. PHPnuke, Zope, etc were all slowly creeping towards the nirvana, but were getting there too slowly. Then OpenGroupware.org (I recall suse's similar product was relevant too, but can't remember how; IIRC the combination of both was particularly powerful???) came along, and things jumped forwards - http://www.opengroupware.org/screens/index.html - it was far from ready the last time I checked, but had made some big steps forwards, e.g. full integration of web + mozilla mail + outlook mail + calendars etc.

Unfortunately, a quick check now shows that it doesn't appear to have moved ahead - the outlook integration still requires you pay for separate connector products, etc. Maybe it's fizzling out a bit, but maybe it's actually progressed much further than it appears from the FAQ's etc...

PS to any phpnuke / zope / etc advocates: these are all just too messy and require too much hand-coding by the user. e.g. Zope has plugins to access MS Office documents as webpages (very powerful !), but they haven't been updated for years and are alpha-only and require hand coding to fix. In theory, they do the job; in practice, they're useless (most companies won't have enough time to get them to work Sad ).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #74 - Posted 2004-02-17 17:50:44 »

Quote

...one of my children has learning difficulties and in the (UK) catalogs of software for children with learning difficulties, Linux is entirely absent. OK, this is a specialist requirement, but that was really my point.

One possibility would be using Wine to get them running on Linux... of course, getting Win apps running in Wine isn't that trivial (at least it wasn't last time I tried) so I can't really say with certainty that it would fix the problem.

The final, and obviously best solution, is to run 2 computers at home.  That way you can have the joy of Linux... but when you absolutely need it, you can return to the miserableness of Windoze.   Grin
Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Member




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #75 - Posted 2004-02-18 10:38:03 »

Huh Huh why would you go back to visual studio after using Emacs Huh Huh
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #76 - Posted 2004-02-18 12:06:08 »

A better question would be, "Why would you ever use Emacs?"  Smiley
Is it that nice nostalgic feeling of living in the 70's ? Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #77 - Posted 2004-02-18 12:14:29 »

<joke>Not content with the extreme brilliance of TextPad 4 I feel the urge to try and remember another 300 keystroke sequences. Aha! Emacs! Just what I need Smiley</joke>

Cas Smiley

Offline sugarshark

Junior Member




Sugar to the sharks.


« Reply #78 - Posted 2004-02-18 13:13:18 »

Quote
A better question would be, "Why would you ever use Emacs?"  Smiley

Because no fancy IDE matches its power up to this very day!
Eclipse with it's open architecture has the potential to come close one day,  but today it's still a very specialized program, constraining its users unecessary and good for nothing but java editing.

You don't need to memorize 300 keystrokes.
Emacs has its documentation built in, to get started you just need one keystroke: M-x  and a few function names like apropos, describe-function describe-variable and describe-mode.
The shortcuts come naturally after a time, Emacs will tell you the key binding if you invoke a function.

Lazy ones can use the menus as well, of course.

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body.  
Then I realized who was telling me this.
-- Emo Phillips
Offline MGodehardt

Junior Member




why does the chicken cross the road?


« Reply #79 - Posted 2004-02-18 13:45:02 »

i call such people "freaks".

Microsoft Developer Studio is all i need, can emacs also cook coffee or do you feel better when u use it and tell other people i use emacs ?

use what u want, be humble
Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Member




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #80 - Posted 2004-02-18 13:48:39 »

Emacs is more like life, universe and everything. Where do you need "windows" and other useless graphical features when you can access IRC from Emacs and code in multiple languages?  :-/

"windows are for nubs" and console for life.  Grin

Also Emacs is far from bloated. Look what happened to Opera and Mozilla Firebird. Both of them came from good minimalist sollution to bloated pieces of crap.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #81 - Posted 2004-02-18 13:53:41 »

Opera's only 3Mb download still...

If you want real finger dexterity, go for NetHack every time Cheesy Much more fun than programming. Although equally frustrating.

Cas Smiley

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #82 - Posted 2004-02-18 14:09:17 »

Quote
Also Emacs is far from bloated. Look what happened to Opera and Mozilla Firebird. Both of them came from good minimalist sollution to bloated pieces of crap.

Opera is 3.2 MB, and FireFox is 6.2MB and you call that bloated piece of crap??? - add to that, none of them came from a minimalist solution! Must be some fun mushrooms you grow!

Really makes me wonder what browser you're using...

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #83 - Posted 2004-02-18 14:21:11 »

Quote

Because no fancy IDE matches its power up to this very day!


No fancy IDE beats the power of my tickertape-based literal Turing machine, with a processing power of 0.00001 MIPS!

Your statement is completely irrelevant. Power is not the issue, productivity is.

Quote

You don't need to memorize 300 keystrokes.
Emacs has its documentation built in, to get started you just need one keystroke: M-x  and a few function names like apropos, describe-function describe-variable and describe-mode.
The shortcuts come naturally after a time, Emacs will tell you the key binding if you invoke a function.

Lazy ones can use the menus as well, of course.


True story: having used unix for several months in a commercial development job (not EMACS, thank god; we had real dev tools) and having used Solaris and linux for a year or two at university, I had to fix a 5-line config file remotely, on a machine with Emacs. It took me:

  • A few seconds to make the change
  • 30 minutes to find the command to save the buffer (note: a lot of that time spent trying to work out how to get rid of the help system, which wouldn't let me back to my file)
  • 15 minutes to find out how to quit Emacs (again, major problems with the help system getting in the way


No exaggeration; the times are correct to within +- 2 minutes. And I'd already spent years without an IDE just using text editors (it was a great day when I finally got hold of DOS 5.0's "edit") and doing things as cryptic as x86 assembly programming.

I have never encountered any other computer program in my life that made a 4.5 second problem into a 45 minute one (nb: there's a lot that turned 5 minute problems into 3 hour ones, usually because of a forced re-install of the OS Sad ).

Shrug. You can guess my opinion on EMACS. Especially given I would rather be forced to use plain VI (with none of the colours, IDE tools, visual mode etc) than to use EMACS ever again.

EDIT: EMACS personifies the extremist end of the Microsoft approach to standards - Ignore them. They don't even embrace, but instead rush straight to the extend.

The one I particularly remember was this little key called "escape"; I concluded eventually that the designers of EMACS had decide "escape" was not to be an option, that anyone who ventured in must never be allowed out.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #84 - Posted 2004-02-18 14:22:17 »

Quote
Emacs is more like life, universe and everything. Where do you need "windows" and other useless graphical features when you can access IRC from Emacs and code in multiple languages?  :-/

Because I can't paint in it, because I can't see my applets nor applications, because I have virtual desktops, because I have IM's running... There are a gazillion reasons why I can't work without the windows interface

Quote
"windows are for nubs" and console for life.  Grin

Sure - so 99.999999% percent of computer users are "nubs". I think you got it wrong...
Consoles are superior for many things, but fail miserably in most others - and thats a fact. So far, you only make me think you're a zealot.

Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #85 - Posted 2004-02-18 15:45:44 »

Of course he's a zealot - it's our beloved Captain back for another few rounds of "Java Sucks Because..."! Grin

Power vs productivity is a trade-off that has to be made.  Personally I'm very happy with my current solution - Eclipse handles all the project-related stuff and everyday source editing, while Vim is brought out when I badly need a few regexps or macros etc.  For server-side projects I add Maven to the mix to handle compilation, packaging, distribution etc.  Works like a charm.

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #86 - Posted 2004-02-18 16:20:06 »

Quote
Because no fancy IDE matches its power up to this very day!

I prefer a reasonable balance between power and ease of use... let me illustrate with your example...

Quote
Emacs has its documentation built in, to get started you just need one keystroke: M-x

M-x  oh that makes perfect sense - anybody would intuitively know to press that if they didn't know where to begin.   Pathetic.
Quote
and a few function names like apropos, describe-function describe-variable and describe-mode.

You are kidding right? I have to type "describe-function"... so I can learn what other functions to type - just so I can use my editor/ide. No thanks.

Quote
The shortcuts come naturally after a time

EVERYTHING comes naturally after a time.  That's no reason to start with something lame (e.g. vi).  Next I suppose we should go back to using i,j,k,m to move the cursor around?

But I think that is the point... you tend to prefer things that are similar to what you are used to.  If you learned Emacs or even 'vi' then they seem reasonable, despite being strange to those on more neutral ground.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #87 - Posted 2004-02-18 20:46:23 »

Quote
while Vim is brought out when I badly need a few regexps or macros etc


Why Vim? Textpad does what you want. I avoid everything that even sounds remotely like VI unless I don't have any other choice.

Err what was the topic again?  Grin Roll Eyes

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #88 - Posted 2004-02-18 23:55:12 »

Quote


"Evolution" is exactly what you are looking for.

Btw. I think Outlook isn't a killer app, but a non-standard-conform and often insecure (depends on configuration) mail-client.


Where as I find Outlook/Excahnage to be the killer app for virus writers.

In a speach Scott once jokingly called it the "petrie dish of the internet."  That sums up my reaction to it.  I wont LET my wife run it at home.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #89 - Posted 2004-02-19 01:11:18 »

Quote


Where as I find Outlook/Excahnage to be the killer app for virus writers.

In a speach Scott once jokingly called it the "petrie dish of the internet."  That sums up my reaction to it.  I wont LET my wife run it at home.


Actually you're better off from stopping her from running WIndows at all at that point. Much of the problem isn't with Outlook - its with Windows and its RPC services. There is nothing wrong with what Outlook does, its that the functionality isn't sandbox'd in 99/9% of cases.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
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