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  the anti-linux args (from AWT thread)  (Read 14756 times)
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Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #30 - Posted 2004-02-12 11:19:36 »

Quote

MS sometimes tries to establish their own proprietary "standards" to drive competitors out of the market. Their marketing policy alone is a good reason to have a look at alternatives.

Replace "sometimes" with "virtually always".

What you said is really the main point. Plus one of the biggest pro-Linux and pro-Any_other_alternative_to_windows point at all, including pro-Opensource.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #31 - Posted 2004-02-12 11:41:46 »

Quote

I've only used BeOS a little, but RISC OS a lot, and was never too impressed by BeOS's GUI. I think most people agree that RISC OS had a fantastic GUI  (..) I still really miss lots of RISC OS features, like being able to dynamically allocate RAM in realtime to the font cache / video memory / etc just by dragging barcharts (!).

How true. RISC OS (from a user's point of view: its GUI) has provided the most responsive and fast GUI I've ever used, and of course the first one to feature real time window dragging with pure CPU power (that british CPU named ARM has been and still is great).
Well, the taskmanager has been a dream, too.

Quote
Me, for one. And it is - in most cases. Just because you can cite lots of counter examples doesn't change this - there's hundreds of thousands of crud apps (e.g. just by looking at sf.net), and perhaps a thousand good ones (I'd guess, off the top of my head, there are considerably fewer than 500 high-quality open source apps...perhaps even only than 200).

I see, with "most of the Opensource software" you mean the pure amount, not the ones which are being used mostly and well known.
If you count all closed-sourced software (including commercial/Shareware currency calculators, and the majority of industry software projects which never reaches the public): an analogous picture would be drawn for closed-source software, isn't it?
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2004-02-12 12:32:00 »

Quote

I see, with "most of the Opensource software" you mean the pure amount, not the ones which are being used mostly and well known.
If you count all closed-sourced software (including commercial/Shareware currency calculators, and the majority of industry software projects which never reaches the public): an analogous picture would be drawn for closed-source software, isn't it?


Well, that's not quite what I meant, but it's a fair point that it's very difficult to not to accidentally include such when trying to summarise en masse (who has time to review even 100 apps, let alone 1000?).

I only meant to include apps of non-trivial size - so a currency calc would be out, but a POP + SMTP email client would be in.

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Offline swpalmer

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Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #33 - Posted 2004-02-12 12:45:12 »

Quote
Some observations:

  • Many of the people who are most extreme in dislike of windows come from a 9x background rather than NT. Many of the worst sins of 9x were already fixed in the equivalent NT of the day

Absolutely.

Quote
the issue is nearly always hardware

And yet for me Linux crashes more often on the SAME hardware.  My example system sitting beside me right now crashes with 100% reliability JUST SITTING THERE.. (SCSI driver issue mentioned above) It must be rebooted daily to work... yet if I boot to Windows it works fine.

I agree that a lot of the arguments are messed up (I don't like big words Smiley).  Those that run linux without problems think it is stable and wonderful.  But that doesn't discount the fact that there are significant problems - I'm proof Smiley.  I haven't heard many complaints from Windows NT (and above) users.. though I know it too has issues, my 'gut feeling' is that it has less issues.. which makes sense when you think about it - hardware vendors depend on Windows compatibility, they don't NEED Linux at all.  Therefore more work goes into making stuff work with Windows.

Quote
  • Linux packaging today is pretty much FUBAR (I say this as somoene who knows and uses all the resources for finding packages, e.g. PBONE, RPMFIND, etc etc). Yes, if you have Debian, and you don't care about being 12 to 24 months behind the rest of the world, and you don't want esoteric apps, and you only want open-source apps, it's fine. Bear in mind that today MOST open-source software (thankfully, this is not true of most major software) is NOT PACKAGED AT ALL...

Exactly.  This is the biggest problem I've had with trying to "use" Linux (unix in general) as compared to Windows/Mac OS X.  When it all comes down to it, they all crash sometimes, but only Linux is such a nightmare to simply install working software.  What comes with the Distro counts less because experts have already done the hellish configuration for you.  That's equivalent to installing Windows and having Notepad work.. big deal. It's the apps I get after the fact that have problems.  Yes, Linux has an advantage in that the distro include tons more apps than any other OS.  I fully accept that as a Linux advantage and I think it is one reason that people don't notice the problems with Linux in a more general sense.

Quote
  • X sucks as a modern desktop windowing system. It was NOT designed for this! It designed to do other cool stuff, like previously described. Realistically, there is no organization that can afford (time / money) to replace X from scratch. The latest incarnations of X are moving it more and more towards a modern desktop windows - lots of fundamental architectural changes, and if this continues many of the fundamental problems will disappear.

Again, I'm in total agreement.  Yet I love to see the alternative GUIs that are used on unix-based systems like BeOS and OS X..  So clearly replacing X with something else can be done.   Then you run an X-server on top of a reasonable desktop GUI to get the best of both worlds.

Offline Jens

Senior Member




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« Reply #34 - Posted 2004-02-12 13:23:25 »

Quote
Many of the people who are most extreme in dislike of windows come from a 9x background rather than NT. Many of the worst sins of 9x were already fixed in the equivalent NT of the day


At least for me that's not true. I used 3.11/95/98/2000/XP.

Quote
Some here (e.g. Jens, I think) seem to believe Linux is considerably better than windows, period.


I hereby admit that I believe Linux is considerably better than Windows. :-) And I spend considerable effort to explain my point of view, so that neutral readers can form their own opionion.

Quote
No offence intended, but most of what they say on this topic is either experience from one distro (Debian)


I used Suse, Redhat and Debian. The reason why I'm often talking about Debian is, that I think it's in some ways better than Suse and Redhat, for instance the package management. The make/compile arguments comes up quite often, and Debian is a good counterargument for this.

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Yes, if you have Debian, and you don't care about being 12 to 24 months behind the rest of the world, and you don't want esoteric apps, and you only want open-source apps, it's fine.


Yes, the stable releases have pretty old software and that's sometimes a weakness of Debian for desktop users (the advantage is that it is very stable). However you can always use Debian testing or unstable, if you need current software like I do.

Quote
X sucks as a modern desktop windowing system. It was NOT designed for this!


What was it designed for and what does suck? I read quite a lot about the problems Linux users have, but I can't remember reading that X sucks, so there must be a reason why you say this.

Quote
I've used, typically for 1-2 years each, DOS-3,4,5,6,7, OS2 and Warp, Windows 2,3,3.1,3.11,95,98,NT-4,2k and XP, Linux RH5,6,7 Suse 7(?),8,9 Mandrake 7,8.0,8.1,8.2,9, and several "micro" linuxes (not counting the various Unixes, like Solaris etc, and the non-intel hardware OS's).


I think it also depends on which OS you used as your favourite desktop at home. Lots of people use Linux for servers, but just do something on it once every three months or so. I work remotely on SunOS sometimes, but this is not enough to be able to evaluate it.

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Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #35 - Posted 2004-02-12 14:47:36 »

To add to the comments on Risc Os , we had an A3000 and later a Risc PC as the family computer when I was young and I have to say I had no idea how good it was until I had to try and use windows 3.1, which felt like a step back to the kind of Atari ST era.

The important thing about Risc Os was of course that it had the best version of Elite ever created for it. Maybe I'm rose-tinting somewhat but I don't recall having played a game with better AI.
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2004-02-12 15:22:36 »

Quote

I used Suse, Redhat and Debian. The reason why I'm often talking about Debian is, that I think it's in some ways better than Suse and Redhat, for instance the package management. The make/compile arguments comes up quite often, and Debian is a good counterargument for this.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sometimes counter arguments "linux does X badly" with "no, linux does X well" when actually you mean "debian does X well (linux in general does X badly)". That's cheating Wink.

Quote

What was it designed for and what does suck? I read quite a lot about the problems Linux users have, but I can't remember reading that X sucks, so there must be a reason why you say this.


Fundamental architecture. The hoops that X still has to jump through to support the whole "x-server" crud, and the idea of popping up remote apps on the local x-server etc etc etc. There has been much discussion of dropping these features, in order to simplify the X architecture, and much discussion of the pros and cons of this. IIRC, the current majority opinion is "don't remove those features".

Quote

I think it also depends on which OS you used as your favourite desktop at home. Lots of people use Linux for servers, but just do something on it once every three months or so. I work remotely on SunOS sometimes, but this is not enough to be able to evaluate it.


FYI I was only mentioning ones i used as a desktop OS on a daily basis. I have tried very hard to improve my general OS experience over the years, so far without much success. NB: NT-4 is still my benchmark, and that's depressing Sad. NB also, I did NOT include Mac OS X in that list, and several friends who've had similar experience to myself (i.e. many many OS's) have said some very good things about it (sadly, they've also had some very bad things to say too Sad ).

PS ...and NT4 wasn't even that great. It could still crash quite easily (although much much less than win9x, and slightly less than most desktop linuxes I've used), had MAJOR bugs in all MS apps (e.g. windows networking would sometimes cache a password you'd changed...indefinitely!!! Also networking timeouts in excess of 15 minutes could be a VERY big pain!), and only had DirectX 5 - which was a problem with playing games Sad.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

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« Reply #37 - Posted 2004-02-12 15:52:04 »

Fun though it is, I really have to bow out and escape this thread now  Kiss

Cas Smiley

Offline Jens

Senior Member




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« Reply #38 - Posted 2004-02-12 16:00:58 »

Quote
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sometimes counter arguments "linux does X badly" with "no, linux does X well" when actually you mean "debian does X well (linux in general does X badly)". That's cheating Wink.


I tried to make it explicit when I meant Debian (probably forgot it in in some places). That's kind of a problem in this thread: Some Linux distributions have more conceptual differences than different versions of Windows. To make a really good comparision we had to name specific versions of Windows and Linux and the target group (e.g. newbie, expert, long-time-win-only-user, latest-feature-junkie) or even specific tasks. The study I linked to somewhere at the beginning of this thread, did exactly that.

Quote
Fundamental architecture. The hoops that X still has to jump through to support the whole "x-server" crud, and the idea of popping up remote apps on the local x-server etc etc etc. There has been much discussion of dropping these features, in order to simplify the X architecture, and much discussion of the pros and cons of this. IIRC, the current majority opinion is "don't remove those features".


Don't the current ATI/NVidia drivers avoid this overhead anyway?

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Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #39 - Posted 2004-02-12 16:19:24 »

Quote
Me, for one. And it is - in most cases. Just because you can cite lots of counter examples doesn't change this - there's hundreds of thousands of crud apps (e.g. just by looking at sf.net), and perhaps a thousand good ones (I'd guess, off the top of my head, there are considerably fewer than 500 high-quality open source apps...perhaps even only than 200).

I think you've let that "God" label below your name go to your head. ;)
I'm amazed that you can just look at Sourceforge and immediately tell that hundreds of thousands of the apps are crud.

Very impressive!

Can you now point that same omnipotent intellect at all the commercial applications in the world and tell us what the percentage of crud is to 'quality'?  About the same right?

;D
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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #40 - Posted 2004-02-12 16:43:38 »

Quote

I think you've let that "God" label below your name go to your head. ;)


;D

Quote

I'm amazed that you can just look at Sourceforge and immediately tell that hundreds of thousands of the apps are crud.


I've tried to make clear that I know full well I'm only going on personal opinion and limited experience on this particular point.

Whereever it sounds like I was saying "I've looked at everything on SF" what I meant was "Much of my exposure to os projects is via SF (as opposed to via freshmeat, PBONE, etc - just so you know what I'm using for source material; if you think sf is a biased source, you can say so directly and hopefully point me somewhere where I could get a better view), and it's quite a good place to look when trying to get an overview of opensource projects".

Over the years, I've tracked many SF projects. I've downloaded and tried something like 300 of them from SF, max. (Out of approx 100k currently registered at the moment, I think? and they haven't been deleting any for most of that time...). I've downloaded and used probably a similar number from other sources (I'm not including anything I've got from distro CD's here - only stuff I found or went looking for). I certainly haven't looked at all the source for all 300 sf projects I've used, but I've looked at snippets of many, and looked in detail at quite a few, and even looked at the entire source of all files in detail for a dozen or so.

I can only say that I've seen what I identify as a pattern (well, several patterns), in terms of the quality of software engineering in os software. Incidentally, another interesting one I've noticed is that it's only when the major / standard linux app or driver in one area completely stagnates for about 4-5 years that someone comes in and makes a much better one; if the current app or driver is "bad but even slighlty active" (even if it doesn't fully work for many people!), that seems to be enough to prevent others competing. Off the top of my head I'd say the opposite was true in the commercial world - poor software breeds competitors wanting to take away their money like nothing else. In os, most examples I can think of of rampant competition is where each of the competitors is about as good as each other, but duplicates most of each other (KDE and Gnome; XMMS, Xine and Mplayer; etc etc).

You can also get a really good flavour of the quality of software from looking at the planning and documentation (the link between good docs and good app is not trivial, but I hope everyone understands what I mean, whereas the link between good planning and good app is much more obvious). I've looked at the planning and docs for many many projects. I've complained about the docs, and offered suggestions of particular aspects that need additional docs for quite a lot of OS projects. I've even been responsible (indirectly) for updating of a few HOWTO's, including one of the kernel ones.

None of this qualifies me to be correct, and I'm only mentioning it now because it's what I was thinking when I made the comments you (fair enough) called me out upon; I attempted to allude to it, rather than listing my precise experiences and analyses (I've also done the odd report on os software for people to make support or purchasing decisions) of os software.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #41 - Posted 2004-02-12 16:51:49 »

WinNT would never have became popular until the day SAP decided to base their flag ship application (R/3 ?) on it. (The day they announced it in Walldorf, Mr. Gates thanked them in a short speech.)
Ironically MS now enter SAP's market in a massive way and we all know: on any market MS enter, they don't tolerate competition.

Probably SAP's decision to go the J2EE & Linux route has come a bit too late. Well, we'll see.

Just an observation...
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2004-02-12 18:42:53 »

Quote
WinNT would never have became popular until the day SAP decided to base their flag ship application (R/3 ?) on it

What is SAP?

Offline erikd

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« Reply #43 - Posted 2004-02-12 20:27:04 »

www.sap.com
ERP systems and such.

Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #44 - Posted 2004-02-13 02:18:34 »

Quote

What is SAP?

http://www.sap.com



...edited:  damn erik you beat me.  :P
Offline Jeff

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« Reply #45 - Posted 2004-02-13 03:01:36 »

Okay my 2 cents, YMMV:

(1) Most beautiful, functional, stable OS I've ever seen was Amiga Exec.   It was also tiny.  Simplicity and elegence generally result in stability, its a basic truth of engineering.  Windows isn't either.

(2) I cant believe that working engineers are debating GUIs in an OS thread.  It jsut shows how badly \MSFT has confused everyone. GUIS AREN'T OSes.  OSes provide virtualized system functionality and properly live in System space. GUIs, and in fact ANY user interface, is properly an application shell/framework that live in User space.

MSFT in a (apparently very sucessful) effort to gain an iron-clad stranglehold on app wrietrs built their GUI into their OS.  Then to "fix" their screwed up OS that couldn't perform well enough in user space to support a GUI they muigrated it into system space and intermingled it with their kernel.  This confusion of the code is the source of many of Win's stability issues.

(3) For the record. I use NT.   I have to reinstall every 6 to 9 months.  Thats better then 95 and Me where it was every 2 to 3  months but still really crappy.  

If you properly shut down and bring up an Unix you shouldnt ever have to reinstall it.  (I suspect many people's problems with Linux stem from the fact that they don't treat it like a Unix but just blindly shut their machine off when done.  Unix caches extensively and thus needs proper shutdown. a UPS is essential when running a Unix of any kind.)




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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #46 - Posted 2004-02-13 04:31:31 »

Quote
Most beautiful, functional, stable OS I've ever seen was Amiga Exec.

I agree.. For it's day it was the sweetest thing going.  It lacked the features you would expect of an OS today though. (e.g. security, isolated process spaces etc.)

Quote
I cant believe that working engineers are debating GUIs in an OS thread.  It jsut shows how badly \MSFT has confused everyone. GUIS AREN'T OSes.

While I recognize the distinction that you are making here, I consider the use rinterface to be part of the OS - at least in the context of Windows, Mac OS, AmigaOS, BeOS...  these all have a specific GUI that is unique to that OS.  As an end user the UI is one of the primary thing that distinguishes the OS.  After that comes the core OS features, but other than their effect on stability and ease of use end users see little of the OS core features.

Quote
OSes provide virtualized system functionality and properly live in System space. GUIs, and in fact ANY user interface, is properly an application shell/framework that live in User space.

I would use the term "properly"  these are arbitrary distinctions really.  In fact System vs. User are artificial names.  These really amount to privilege levels, and different OS components could be made to run at various privilege levels - it's still an OS regardless of what level the GUI or FileSystem, etc. runs in.. may just not a good one.  An OS is more than a Kernel.

Quote
MSFT in a (apparently very sucessful) effort to gain an iron-clad stranglehold on app wrietrs built their GUI into their OS.

I doubt that was their motive.  I think it's plain incompetance - Microsoft ingeneral is not very good at making software, only marketing.  they have maybe 5 products total that they developed themselves that are any good at all.

Quote
Then to "fix" their screwed up OS that couldn't perform well enough in user space to support a GUI they muigrated it into system space and intermingled it with their kernel.  This confusion of the code is the source of many of Win's stability issues.

It certainly accounts for graphics drivers causing all sorts of system crashes.  But there is more to it than that.

Quote
If you properly shut down and bring up an Unix you shouldnt ever have to reinstall it.

from win2k up I've never had to re-install for as long as it took for the next version to come out.  though I've see systems that did require re-installs as the result of hardware failure or bugs in 3rd party installers that corrupted the OS data structures or files... That I do blame on Windows since the OS should manage software installation enough that corruption of the OS would be impossible...  The idea of the Linux package system is good in this regard.. the problem is that the package system is not enforced by the OS, so everyone is free to screw things up.

The more I think about it the more depressed I am with how little progress has been made in operating systems.  the MS monopoly is partly resposible for holding back the industry in that space... If it weren't for that monopoly BeOS and other innovations would have a fighting chance and we would see some progress.  Though MS is making some significant changes with Longhorn... e.g. FINALLY an OS vendor is realizing that a filesystem IS a database and should be designed as such.  Though the issue of software installation will still suck.  Mac OS is quite a long way ahead in that regard - you want app Z installed.. drag the icon to some place on your system - done.  You want to remove it - drag it to the trash - done.  It is unfortunate that MAc OS misses the fact that the same could be done with their installation packages with just a line or to in the bundle's config file.  There is no need for big install GUIs asking you to press the 'next' button every 10 seconds... how archaic.   With MS systems you can also get the dreaded 'partial uninstall' - that should be impossible, the OS should manage what belongs to an application and no exactly how to remove all of it cleanly.  I think RPM databases on Linux might be close to this.. too bad RPMs are required to install software though.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #47 - Posted 2004-02-13 04:37:10 »

Re: SAP

Ah, I laugh at that stuff.  Corporations pay huge sums of money for software that helps them be more bureaucratic and inefficient - brilliant.  I highly doubt the value of such software.  What I have seen of it so often is such a misfit to what is actually needed that it makes work as opposed to eliminates work.  You could probably have a high-school student spend a weekend with a database to make something that is ultimately more effective.  Of course most corporations could probably run off QuickBooks too... but they have highly paid consultants to convince them why they can't do that Smiley.

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #48 - Posted 2004-02-13 07:32:45 »

Quote
The more I think about it the more depressed I am with how little progress has been made in operating systems.  the MS monopoly is partly resposible for holding back the industry in that space... If it weren't for that monopoly BeOS and other innovations would have a fighting chance and we would see some progress.


I agree here. This whole thread was about the question "Is Linux ready for the desktop?", but another interesting question is "Why do some computer experts not even try to use anything else than Windows?". Almost everyone I'm talking to agrees that the MS monopoly is a bad thing nowadays and hinders innovation and progress. But not everyone even tries to use anything else, although they spend hours in front of their PCs every day. Nothing is perfect, but the way MS uses their monopoly and treats their customers, is more than any of you should bear.

Just one example: I think december last year a security leak in Internet Explorer was found (Ok, this is true for every month in the last years, but read on.). The bug allowed to fake the URL in the address bar. This means you can click on a link, which leads for example to www.want-your-password.com, but www.your-online-bank.com is displayed in the address bar. This allows attackers to fake a serious website to get usernames and passwords. Obviously a serious bug. But the part I liked most is the advisory of Microsoft: They advise people not to click on links, but instead copy&paste them in the address bar manually. Grin Grin (Not even mentioned that this not that easy for Javascript links.) Instead of fixing this bug immediately, they rather prefer to publish really stupid hints, which they can never expect every user to follow. Read the full MS knowledge base article here. It's fun. Grin

The good news is that MS Windows NT and 2000 finally become "Opensource": http://slashdot.org/articles/04/02/12/2114228.shtml?tid=109&tid=187

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Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #49 - Posted 2004-02-13 08:46:14 »

Quote
Re: SAP

Ah, I laugh at that stuff.  Corporations pay huge sums of money for software that helps them be more bureaucratic and inefficient - brilliant.  I highly doubt the value of such software.

SAP's software is being used many times in Europe, also 13 NATO countries use it including the US army. It's not bad AFAIK.
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #50 - Posted 2004-02-13 18:23:21 »

Quote
from win2k up I've never had to re-install for as long as it took for the next version to come out.  though I've see systems that did require re-installs as the result of hardware failure or bugs in 3rd party installers that corrupted the OS data structures or files... That I do blame on Windows since the OS should manage software installation enough that corruption of the OS would be impossible...

I wish that had been my experience.  I installed Office on my wife's (Windows) laptop.... one windows reinstall later....
Offline kevglass

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« Reply #51 - Posted 2004-02-13 18:26:03 »

1  
I agree here. This whole thread was about the question "Is Linux ready for the desktop?", but another interesting question is "Why do some computer experts not even try to use anything else than Windows?". Almost everyone I'm talking to agrees that the MS monopoly is a bad thing nowadays and hinders innovation and progress. But not everyone even tries to use anything else, although they spend hours in front of their PCs every day. Nothing is perfect, but the way MS uses their monopoly and treats their customers, is more than any of you should bear. 


This is probably because while most technical folks agree that MS is bad, most of them are also practical users with a job to do. If they see Linux as less practically useful than some Window variant then they won't use it, not because they don't agree with the "MS is killing the world" sentiment, but because they have a job to get done.

Kev

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #52 - Posted 2004-02-13 19:07:50 »

Quote
This is probably because while most technical folks agree that MS is bad, most of them are also practical users with a job to do. If they see Linux as less practically useful than some Window variant then they won't use it, not because they don't agree with the "MS is killing the world" sentiment, but because they have a job to get done.


If they are too busy at their jobs (or there are other reasons to use Windows there), they always have the chance to try a non-Windows OS at their home-PC. Do you think people keep constantly using something they don't like? After all, the time to at least try a non-Windows OS isn't that much compared to the years they use Windows. Not mentioned that there are sometimes good situations to try it (new PC, reinstall required anyways). Setting up a Dual-Boot machine isn't difficult, so trying a non-Windows OS doesn't mean removing Windows immediately.

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Offline kevglass

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« Reply #53 - Posted 2004-02-13 19:14:19 »

I wasn't trying to say that these theorectical folk didn't know or try Linux, just that some folk do find it hard to work with (as evidence just read this thread) and that they find it impractical and hence don't try to get into it.

In addition, "they always have the chance to try a non-Windows OS at their home-PC" assumes that you have home time to burn. My evenings when I get a chance to code arn't that often. When I do get an evening it tends to be a view hours. In this time I have code I want to write and create and prioritize this above trying different operating systems that in the past I've had problems with being really efficent on it. (again this is a personal case).

I'm not saying Linux or Windows is better as a desktop (they both have + and - imo) but simply that sometimes its what works for now thats important.

Kev

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #54 - Posted 2004-02-13 20:08:28 »

I changed the question to: "Why do some computer experts not even try to use anything else than Windows?" So if someone tried it once, he/she is already out of the scope of this question. I'd like to know, if there are reasons to not even try it.

Thinking more about it, this would make a good poll.
[... some minutes later ...]
I just created a poll, so please vote over at the Site Polls Forum: Do you use Windows or an other OS?

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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #55 - Posted 2004-02-14 11:21:27 »

FYI: being forced to shut down all apps now and restart linux. Why? Well, it's been running for a whole 6 days now, and now it can't start any new apps (memory leak in X-windows + Mozilla. If I close X-windows, all other apps shutdown anyway).

As I said, linux without X (e.g. as server only) is great, but in general I can't support anyone who claims a linux box with non-trivial window manager will show significantly more uptime than a similar XP box Sad.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #56 - Posted 2004-02-14 11:24:51 »

Quote
FYI: being forced to shut down all apps now and restart linux. Why? Well, it's been running for a whole 6 days now, and now


NB: I have in the past found memory leaks in windows-explorer that leaked VIRTUAL memory not just physical (god knows how!). Killing windows explorer freed RAM but not virtual memory.

Very annoying: Task manager shows 150Mb "unused physical memory", but you can't start a small text editor (error message: "Not enough free virtual memory to start application" or something like that).

Although, to be fair, linux does this to me several times a month (or several a week if I use Mozilla too much), whereas I only had that on windows once every two or three years.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #57 - Posted 2004-02-14 12:53:48 »

Quote
If you properly shut down and bring up an Unix you shouldnt ever have to reinstall it.  (I suspect many people's problems with Linux stem from the fact that they don't treat it like a Unix but just blindly shut their machine off when done.  Unix caches extensively and thus needs proper shutdown. a UPS is essential when running a Unix of any kind.)

Perhaps the behaviour of Unix in the event of an unexpected shutdown should be improved. NT tolerates this rather well (and if you push the power switch on the machine itself, then it does a proper shutdown). Not much need for a UPS here except for critical machines (power outages are rare, brownouts unheard of).

Why do people choose Windows with little or no consideration of alternatives? Well for many applications there is NO alternative.
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #58 - Posted 2004-02-14 13:47:46 »

Quote
FYI: being forced to shut down all apps now and restart linux. Why? Well, it's been running for a whole 6 days now, and now it can't start any new apps (memory leak in X-windows + Mozilla. If I close X-windows, all other apps shutdown anyway).


Not that it's a great help, but you can restart the X-Server without rebooting the machine, if you think the X-Server has a memory leak.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #59 - Posted 2004-02-14 14:04:30 »

Quote
Why do people choose Windows with little or no consideration of alternatives? Well for many applications there is NO alternative.


Don't think I can agree here. The situation has improved a lot over the past years. What applications are you refering to? Browser, mail, office, video, music, CD/DVD-burner, instant messaging, graphics programs, development tools, databases, webserver ...? Some games run only on Windows, but as a last resort you have wine (I use it to run Warcraft 3 for example.).

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