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 What I did today  (Read 3678850 times) 0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.
KaiHH

JGO Kernel

Medals: 798

 « Reply #3810 - Posted 2016-02-24 19:45:46 »

If that is a very complicated environment for new users, you can image Vulkan
Trying to stay objectively and non-biased here, I'd say with a straight face that Vulkan is actually easier than OpenGL. And that is for two reasons: consistency and explicitness
- no semantic heavy overloading of functions.
- no implicit hidden state (and there is alot of state in OpenGL)
That may result in larger code at first, but that code is indeed easier to understand, because there is nothing going on which you don't see and you don't have to constantly juggle state/bindings in your head like you had to when you move from one line of OpenGL to the next.
pitbuller
 « Reply #3811 - Posted 2016-02-24 20:03:47 »

One thing I might potentially like about Vulkan is the possibility of more userfriendly API's being developed on top of Vulkan. I have no interest in dabbling in supertechnical details, but maybe something easier / better than OpenGL built on top of Vulkan, who knows.

If one wrappers Vulkan, he gets away from its design and closer to OpenGL one and then one might think what's the point if there is already OpenGL..

Vulkan is low level but that is not why it's fast. It's fast because it's designed for modern architecture. Because Vulkan is low level all sane developers will wrap it and add ton's of safety mechanism around it to crash as possible(asserts). That kind of abstraction won't cost anything on release build but keep it clean. API is also super slim so it's pretty easy to wrap. One nice One nice example of low level abstraction is this. https://developer.nvidia.com/open-source-vulkan-c-api c++ API for Vulkan  to get all c++ benefits with zero cost.
elect

JGO Knight

Medals: 76

 « Reply #3812 - Posted 2016-02-24 21:45:32 »

Trying to stay objectively and non-biased here, I'd say with a straight face that Vulkan is actually easier than OpenGL. And that is for two reasons: consistency and explicitness
- no semantic heavy overloading of functions.
- no implicit hidden state (and there is alot of state in OpenGL)

It may be easier, but I don't agree this applies also to beginners.

Anyway what you say it is right, but sometimes many OpenGL functions are perceived as overloaded because of knowledge lack and/or outdated tutorials everywhere when they are instead clearly not.

That may result in larger code at first, but that code is indeed easier to understand, because there is nothing going on which you don't see and you don't have to constantly juggle state/bindings in your head like you had to when you move from one line of OpenGL to the next.

Right, but modern OpenGL offers you a lot of tools to greatly reduce that constant state/bindings switching.

Vulkan is low level but that is not why it's fast. It's fast because it's designed for modern architecture.

Low level is one of the reason why it may be faster, if properly implemented. Same for its design.

Because Vulkan is low level all sane developers will wrap it and add ton's of safety mechanism around it to crash as possible(asserts). That kind of abstraction won't cost anything on release build but keep it clean. API is also super slim so it's pretty easy to wrap. One nice One nice example of low level abstraction is this. https://developer.nvidia.com/open-source-vulkan-c-api c++ API for Vulkan  to get all c++ benefits with zero cost.

Those mechanisms are today part of the job's driver. Anyway we will see the abstraction to come how they will impact control and performances.
Drivers today take care of a lot of different things and they are really quite efficient.

However don't get me wrong, guys, I am not trying to push you people away from Vulkan, on the contrary. Vulkan is great and is something actually needed and somehow late, because of the laziness of Microsoft and its monopoly, things nowadays have changed, but this is another story.
What I am trying to say is that OpenGL and Vulkan have some overlapping areas, but mainly different targets. Vulkan requires you to have a quite different background skill on what you were used to have on gl.
I'd just like you to be aware of this because I have the feeling most people underestimate this. I am convinced that nowadays, starting right away with Vulkan is a suicide. It's like trying to climb the everest without having climbed smaller mountains. One should start by OpenGL, moder OpenGL and then, if he wants more, move to Vulkan.
 Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
cylab

JGO Kernel

Medals: 195

 « Reply #3813 - Posted 2016-02-24 22:15:11 »

Actually I would expect OpenGL to be implemented in the future as a library on top of Vulkan instead of a driver...

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
ags1

JGO Kernel

Medals: 367
Projects: 7

Make code not war!

 « Reply #3814 - Posted 2016-02-24 22:22:31 »

A frustrating part of learning OpenGL is filtering through all the dead ends and deprecated features... a shiny new API like Vulkan is at least internally consistent. That might make learning a bit easier...

Gornova
 « Reply #3815 - Posted 2016-02-25 08:37:42 »

Released a new version of my small roguelike, CryptoRL2

Blog | Last game Number+
Icecore
 « Reply #3816 - Posted 2016-02-25 12:02:06 »

I think... Vulkan is not for me. And never will be.

Cas
I agree with Cas - I already have all i need - Shader, OpenCL
Performance not a problem - its all about caching ^^ + new physical(device) upgrade
(+ I can’t run in on my GPU , same as million other ppl)
Maybe later…
+Vulcan not for game development – its for Engine dev
For game dev ppl have Unity + Unreal ^^ - with Vulcan support from devs

Last known State: Reassembled in Cyberspace
End Transmission....
..
.
Journey began Now)
princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »

Medals: 1146
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years

Eh? Who? What? ... Me?

 « Reply #3817 - Posted 2016-02-25 13:02:13 »

Somebody could do worse than wrap all the fiddly boilerplate of Vulkan up into some simple one-liners for the common use-cases / targets.

Cas

 « Reply #3818 - Posted 2016-02-25 13:10:14 »

I don't know, I guess I'm just old-fashioned. I'll stick with OpenGL.

I recently started work on a 2D game engine. I know, I know, there are lots of game engines out there that are way better, but Java is lacking in popularity in the game development industry, and I want to do what I can to change that for the better.

It's not really going to be an engine, it's more a framework, but I'll try my best to pull it off. This is actually my first time doing 2D stuff in OpenGL, but it's really simple and I really enjoy it. It's going to be a great learning experience for me.

I'm currently working on a sprite batcher without following any tutorial of any sort, so...yeah. I haven't finished it yet. I'll update you guys on my progress as often as I can. Thanks
 « Reply #3819 - Posted 2016-02-25 17:00:33 »

Figured out how to use blender transparent texturing on palm trees

^.^
 Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
delt0r

JGO Wizard

Medals: 145
Exp: 18 years

Computers can do that?

 « Reply #3820 - Posted 2016-02-25 20:30:27 »

We are still dealing with model import issues in different engines. We really want to use the animation tools of blender rather than yet another tool for our artists. So next few days a stand alone blender importer based on jME with preview and some debug is the task for the next few days.

As for the vulkan subthread. I personally think it is about time for a new api. quite frankly many aspects of the current ones (opengl and DX) are kinda silly, old and only make sense if you consider doing stuff like that a million years ago with crap hardware and super expensive ram.

However using vulkan probably wouldn't be that difficult for me. I draw only index vertex buffers.  But again i don't really need to. Use an engine. Don't write one. And if i didn't use an engine, i would write something that is *not* an engine to render the game state. It would be a shadow of an engine because anything else is a waste of my time.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
KaiHH

JGO Kernel

Medals: 798

 « Reply #3821 - Posted 2016-02-25 20:53:44 »

quite frankly many aspects of the current ones (opengl and DX) are kinda silly, old and only make sense if you consider doing stuff like that a million years ago with crap hardware and super expensive ram.
Well, with OpenGL, yes, but with Direct3D actually no. Microsoft allowed itself to completely overhaul the whole API with every version. Something which the ARB sadly never did with OpenGL.
I find Direct3D 11 is actually pretty good (if it wasn't for COM) and close to Vulkan, with Direct3D 12 being even closer.
So if people learn Vulkan today, they'll feel right at home with Direct3D 11 and 12.
pitbuller
 « Reply #3822 - Posted 2016-02-25 21:11:28 »

quite frankly many aspects of the current ones (opengl and DX) are kinda silly, old and only make sense if you consider doing stuff like that a million years ago with crap hardware and super expensive ram.
Well, with OpenGL, yes, but with Direct3D actually no. Microsoft allowed itself to completely overhaul the whole API with every version. Something which the ARB sadly never did with OpenGL.
I find Direct3D 11 is actually pretty good (if it wasn't for COM) and close to Vulkan, with Direct3D 12 being even closer.
So if people learn Vulkan today, they'll feel right at home with Direct3D 11 and 12.

I second that. DX11 is quite solid. Little bit too restrictive but nothing too bad. On other hand OpenGL is just retarded.
Drenius
 « Reply #3823 - Posted 2016-02-25 21:15:06 »

It's geeting graphic in here again huh?

Got back to trying to fix a problem in my game.
Realized it would make me run into even more problems. Backed back off.
Tomorrow is a day as well!
ags1

JGO Kernel

Medals: 367
Projects: 7

Make code not war!

 « Reply #3824 - Posted 2016-02-25 22:26:17 »

Upgraded my laptop to Windows 10.

Slyth2727
 « Reply #3825 - Posted 2016-02-26 00:09:23 »

Big pot bust at my high school; saw a few kids get chewed out. It's crazy what getting caught with a plant can do to the rest of your life.
delt0r

JGO Wizard

Medals: 145
Exp: 18 years

Computers can do that?

 « Reply #3826 - Posted 2016-02-26 06:57:42 »

\being rant

Yea a bunch of kids back i my  school got sent to jail. A few kids got killed at a party drinking. Stupid how much trouble a little fermented fruit juice can get you in

Trouble is what you make when you do stupid things.. like bring WEED to school.. Shesh stoneheads in my day were far smarter. We didn't take it too school people. Or light up in front of a cop. Ya know, things that get you in trouble.

\end rant.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
theagentd
 « Reply #3827 - Posted 2016-02-26 10:26:25 »

\being rant

Yea a bunch of kids back i my  school got sent to jail. A few kids got killed at a party drinking. Stupid how much trouble a little fermented fruit juice can get you in

Trouble is what you make when you do stupid things.. like bring WEED to school.. Shesh stoneheads in my day were far smarter. We didn't take it too school people. Or light up in front of a cop. Ya know, things that get you in trouble.

\end rant.
>People got killed due to making stupid decisions under the influence of drugs.
I'd imagine the conclusion you're supposed to get to is the fact that drugs are bad, not that kids should hide it better from the police, but okay. That people influenced by drugs are stupid has hardly changed over time.

Myomyomyo.
NegativeZero

JGO Kernel

Medals: 357
Exp: 1 month or less

Zero but not.

 « Reply #3828 - Posted 2016-02-26 11:00:55 »

Had my first day of uni today!

Edit:

Woah. Medals.
For starting uni? Ok.

Anyway. I'm going to the University of Auckland, New Zealand, studying Computer Science as part of a BSc.

J0
 « Reply #3829 - Posted 2016-02-26 11:01:57 »

@NegativeZero where?

ra4king

JGO Kernel

Medals: 508
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years

I'm the King!

 « Reply #3830 - Posted 2016-02-26 20:41:14 »

Welcome to University, where you will learn more about yourself, the opposite sex, and how to procrastinate than any time before!

elect

JGO Knight

Medals: 76

 « Reply #3831 - Posted 2016-02-26 22:16:34 »

@NegativeZero where?

Souther hemisphere
delt0r

JGO Wizard

Medals: 145
Exp: 18 years

Computers can do that?

 « Reply #3832 - Posted 2016-02-27 00:31:13 »

@NegativeZero

Really Auckland? that is where i am. We are getting a informal weekly games dev meeting going here. If your interested?

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
basil_

« JGO Bitwise Duke »

Medals: 418
Exp: 13 years

 « Reply #3833 - Posted 2016-02-27 01:30:25 »

i've made my interwebsite open-source!

http://memleaks.net/

http://memleaks.net/index.phps

FabulousFellini
 « Reply #3834 - Posted 2016-02-27 01:31:11 »

I got a third person surfing level up and running using AWT and it actually looks okay, water included.  I was pretty proud of myself.  Nothing special, it looks like a Sega game, but I thought it was cool!

-FabulousFellini
www.fabulousfellini.com
FabulousFellini
 « Reply #3835 - Posted 2016-02-27 01:32:22 »

@NegativeZero

Really Auckland? that is where i am. We are getting a informal weekly games dev meeting going here. If your interested?

I want to get something like this going in Chicago!  Anybody on here live in Chicago?

-FabulousFellini
www.fabulousfellini.com
NegativeZero

JGO Kernel

Medals: 357
Exp: 1 month or less

Zero but not.

 « Reply #3836 - Posted 2016-02-27 01:55:12 »

@NegativeZero

Really Auckland? that is where i am. We are getting a informal weekly games dev meeting going here. If your interested?

Sure, PM me the details.
If you hop on IRC, there are quite a few kiwis there. (#java-gaming on freenode)

KaiHH

JGO Kernel

Medals: 798

 « Reply #3837 - Posted 2016-02-27 12:27:43 »

Just realized that in OpenGL you don't need any vertex source at all to draw vertices.
All you need is gl_VertexID (or gl_VertexIndex in Vulkan-GLSL) and of course a function that computes the vertex positions, such as with a regular poylgon or rendering splines with only the control points given. And you also don't need any geometry shader.

The following vertex shader renders an arbitrary regular polygon:
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 #version 130#define PI2 6.28318530718uniform int count; // <- number of vertices (3 for a triangle)void main(void) {  vec2 pos = vec2(0.0);  if (gl_VertexID > 0) {    float t = float(gl_VertexID - 1);    float ang = t * PI2 / float(count);    float x = cos(ang);    float y = sin(ang);    pos = vec2(x, y);  }  gl_Position = vec4(pos, 0.0, 1.0);}// Draw call:glDrawArrays(GL_TRIANGLE_FAN, 0, 2 + count);

EDIT: Also fun: Rendering an arbitrarily large grid without any vertex source:
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 #version 130uniform ivec2 size;const ivec2 off[6] = ivec2[] (ivec2(0,0), ivec2(0,1), ivec2(1,1), ivec2(1,1), ivec2(1,0), ivec2(0,0));void main(void) {  int vertIdx = gl_VertexID % 6, gridIdx = gl_VertexID / 6;  vec2 pos = (vec2(gridIdx / size.x, gridIdx % size.x) + vec2(off[vertIdx])) / vec2(size).yx * 2.0 - 1.0;  gl_Position = vec4(pos.x, 0.0, pos.y, 1.0);}// Draw call:glDrawArrays(GL_TRIANGLES, 0, 6 * sizeX * sizeY);
 « Reply #3838 - Posted 2016-02-27 14:30:38 »

i worked on my 3d engine (gif is bad quality)

^.^
CopyableCougar4
 « Reply #3839 - Posted 2016-02-28 01:50:16 »

I've been writing some UI stuff recently, and I just got my label widget to have clickable hyperlinks with the cursor changing over the link

Either wandering the forum or programming. Most likely the latter

Github: http://github.com/CopyableCougar4
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