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  Java Games Community Board Elections  (Read 6535 times)
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Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #30 - Posted 2004-02-14 09:03:09 »

Quote

and no-one knows who I am...

You're Blabla :-)  and I'm still wondering why I couldn't vote for you in the poll... ;-)
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #31 - Posted 2004-02-14 09:17:34 »

Quote

You're Blabla :-)


My assumption too, no one else would use the term "diamond geezer". (possibly Cas? Smiley)

Kev

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #32 - Posted 2004-02-14 09:33:01 »

Quote


My assumption too, no one else would use the term "diamond geezer". (possibly Cas? Smiley)


Grin Busted.

Although I would *never* normally use that epithet (I once had an annoying flatmate who used it all the time...).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #33 - Posted 2004-02-14 09:36:49 »

Quote
[...]Don't we now have to ask why so many people (proportionally) abstained and why although the forums officially have nearly 3000 users, <150 decided to actually vote.
[...]


Well, because it's perfectly normal Smiley

The amount of really (highly) active users is much smaller, than the number of registered users. Take a look at this graph:

http://people.freenet.de/ki_onyx/stats.gif

I generated it about 9 months ago. It's from planetquake.de's forum (17.5k users at that time - 18.5k users now). The Ranks after 3000 were ignored because they have all 0-4 posts. The curve is the same for any other board... sometimes it's less extreme... sometimes it's more extreme...

However, the shape is always the same. It's kinda surprising to see it that clearly with your own eys, but it just has to be that way if you think about it.

We are just a minority of a minority... heh. Actually the community is quite large (relativly) and it will grow even further in the future. Also the most annoying thing for writing games in Java - the lack of a usefull timer - will be gone soon. Horray for 1.5! Grin

Oh I forgot the lurkers. Just reading other's posts might be enough for alot of people. You can gather alot of knowledge this way. Yep, this board is really a good thing.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #34 - Posted 2004-02-14 09:50:39 »

Agreed, but then that emphasises that fact the large proportion of this small group actually chose to abstain (and in honesty, I didn't vote Lips Sealed)

Kev

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #35 - Posted 2004-02-14 11:26:38 »

Quote
Agreed, but then that emphasises that fact the large proportion of this small group actually chose to abstain (and in honesty, I didn't vote Lips Sealed)


Heh yea right. I guess most people, who choosed to abstain were either not sure what all that stuff is about, didn't know enough about the candidates or would have preferred to vote for someone else, who wasn't listed :>

I am - for example - still not sure what's the meaning and/or benefits of having a director (despite the fact that I read all related threads) and I didn't know em all equally well... so most likely I would have choosen to abstain if it had been possible.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Member




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #36 - Posted 2004-02-15 00:09:04 »

I'd like to personally congratulate Shawn & Greg, and thank everyone who participated in the election, including the candidates, voters and community members who raised issues or expressed concern over the role of the board and how the elections were conducted.

While there were certainly a significant number of abstentions, which may be chalked up to any number of issues including lack of understanding of the board's roles and responsibilities, dissatisfaction with the election process, lack of familiarity with the candidates,  or merely apathy. Greater than a super-majority of voters did choose to cast their votes for someone so, as my last act of executive fiat before turning community governance over to the board, I will be letting the elections stand.

A number of extremely valid issues were raised during the elections which I'm sure the newly elected board will work hard to address before next year's elections.  Certainly anyone who disapproves of my handling of the elections (or any other community policy currently in place) will be relieved to know that the community does have majority representation now in setting community policy going forward. (No, the Sun representative does not get an "extra vote")  Smiley

While I'm sure there are still many questions about the role and responsibilities of the board and what effect all this will have on the community, I feel the community will be much better served now that it has somewhere to turn other than Sun and the GTG to ensure its interests are being taken care of. I've had the pleasure of spending some time with Shawn and working (remotely) with Greg, and I have the utmost confidence in their dedication to this community and their determination to see it grow and flourish. Once again, I extend my congratulations to the board and look forward to assisting them in shepharding the community forward.

Which is another way of saying feel free to start bugging them with your problems... Smiley

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #37 - Posted 2004-02-15 00:45:35 »

But we need to know who the sun person is and how to contact that person directly so that we can bug that person with community problems and have them resolved.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #38 - Posted 2004-02-15 00:59:02 »

Quote
I'd like to personally congratulate Shawn & Greg


Is this meant to be the official announcement?

Frankly, Athomas, this is complete and utter crud. Something has gone very badly wrong (ahem. I seem to remember personally making various posts, asking lots of questions, and getting completely blown off by you on most of them) when "abstain" not only is 25% of the vote but actually "wins" one of the positions.

Quote

While there were certainly a significant number of abstentions, which may be chalked up to any number of issues including lack of understanding of the board's roles and responsibilities, dissatisfaction with the election process, lack of familiarity with the candidates,  or merely apathy. Greater than a super-majority of voters did choose to cast their votes for someone so, as my last act of executive fiat before turning community governance over to the board, I will be letting the elections stand.


Read: "we're too cowardly or proud to admit it: the fact that an extraordinarily high number of people abstained can conveniently be ignored because otherwise we'd have to admit we did something wrong".

It's simple, really. If you have the balls to turn around and say you are COMPLETELY IGNORING all the people who abstained, why didn't you have the balls to refuse to add the option? Why didn't you just say "we won't pay any attention to any idiot who abstains, so don't bother. I won't add the option".

Oh, and how do you interpret an abstention as "merely apathy" ? In most democratic processes this is interpreted as a statement of dissatisfaction - a refusal to vote for any candidate, but precisely the opposite of apathy: demonstrating that you made a conscious decision not to vote, for whatever reason.

Quote

A number of extremely valid issues were raised during the elections


Thanks for ignoring them; most were about the election itself.

Quote

Which is another way of saying feel free to start bugging them with your problems... Smiley


Howabout, for starters, "I didn't vote for either of you".

You seem to be attempting to dump your screw-ups on Shawn and Greg, which IMHO is totally unfair. Frankly, I have pretty much lost all interest in devoting any of my time to working with the GTG after this fiasco. For the benefit of anyone reading this forum, I also contacted Chris and others privately almost two weeks ago, suggesting that things were going wrong, and received this promise:

"Thanks for taking the time to write to us.  I will discuss these points with the team today and will reply back to you asap.  I do not have all of the facts as I have not been directly involved with the implementation of the voting, so please bear with me as we sort this out."

...that was 12 days ago, and no-one ever got back to me, let alone "asap". So my apologies if I appear to be ranting - I have taken all reasonable steps first before coming to this point.

So, I have one last question for the GTG: Why should anyone bother spending any more time trying to do things with or for you if this is the way you like to do things (taking your attitude to the elections as a whole)? This isn't rhetorical, it's serious, and I would appreciate a serious answer.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #39 - Posted 2004-02-15 11:48:05 »

Quote
But we need to know who the sun person is and how to contact that person directly so that we can bug that person with community problems and have them resolved.


Yes, would be really great to know this, as well as which practical steps the Board will take in the nearest future.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Member




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #40 - Posted 2004-02-15 13:29:53 »

Quote
But we need to know who the sun person is and how to contact that person directly so that we can bug that person with community problems and have them resolved.


The Sun representative will be chosen this week. Once that person is selected we will schedule an initial meeting of the board to begin addressing community issues. It will be up to the board to determine next steps at that time.

I am going to recommend that we create a community board forum to make it easier for people to ask questions and raise issues with the board.

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Member




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #41 - Posted 2004-02-15 14:20:40 »

Quote
So, I have one last question for the GTG: Why should anyone bother spending any more time trying to do things with or for you if this is the way you like to do things (taking your attitude to the elections as a whole)? This isn't rhetorical, it's serious, and I would appreciate a serious answer.

Look Adam, I'm sorry you're pissed, but you know what, if you wanna go, go. I don't have the time or inclination to convince you to stay.

FWIW, despite having a rather busy day job trying to ensure that Java is a viable platform for game development, I have done what I can to ensure this community has as much say in its future as possible. It was my suggestion that we give the community control over project approval. It was also my recommendation that we create the board of directors rather than simply decide everything by executive fiat. You can bitch and moan all you want about this election, but the alternative was to have the de facto board of Chris, Jeff and myself continue to make all the decisions around here, something you clearly have some objection to.

I have tried to answer questions as they have arisen, but apparently your attitude is that any answer you don't like doesn't count as an answer. Well, there's nothing I can do about that. I accept that the election may have been flawed.  I still contend it was better than having no election at all. Perhaps it would have been easier if we had simply invited people to serve on the board ourselves like we did with the forum moderators. If you'd prefer that, I encourage you to take it up with the board between now and the next election.

Here it is folks: You've got a board now with majority representation in the community. If you don't like the way things are done around here, you now have an opportunity to do something about it.

So you have a choice, you can work these issues through with the board, or you can whine about how unfair life is here in the forums, it's really up to you. I've abdicated my role as decision-maker. My job, with respect to this community, is now simply to help implement the will of the community as represented by the decisions of the board. You wanna call that a cop-out, fine, at this point I really don't care.

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #42 - Posted 2004-02-15 19:05:17 »

I feared that the discussion would lead to a bitter end. On the one hand the election was not optimal, but on the other hand I honestly believe that Athomas tried to do a good job and spend quite some effort to hand some of the power over to the community. After all you both, Adam and Athomas, want to support Java gaming and I'm sure most people here would like you to help bringing Java gaming to the next level.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #43 - Posted 2004-02-15 20:06:27 »

Quote

Look Adam, I'm sorry you're pissed, but you know what, if you wanna go, go. I don't have the time or inclination to convince you to stay.

I have tried to answer questions as they have arisen, but apparently your attitude is that any answer you don't like doesn't count as an answer.


I only whined that the majority of questions were ignored (look back at the two threads and count how many questions you/other sun staff answered, and how many were asked. There is a considerable difference), and that the opinions of one quarter of those who voted were also ignored (which really did make me bitter: this kind of thing tends to have a lasting negative effect on a community; in theory why should that 25% bother to vote at all next time?).

I asked if time was a problem (no answer). I pointed out that posters here could offer advice if not help in running an election effectively and painlessly, and I tried really hard to get questions answered and problems fixed. At the same time I repeatedly thanked and congratulated you on things that were being done well (look back at the posts). I even, I believe, pointed out that I appreciate your time pressures (I too know what's it like - I regularly have to do 100-hour weeks).

I'm sorry that I failed miserably here, especially with my last whining post where you've ignored the very first question, and the one you did answer wasn't much help (note: the question was fairly clearly phrased not asking you to persuade *me* to do something, but asking you to somehow assure all of us as a whole that this process wouldn't be repeated elsewhere when dealing with us).

I haven't at any point canvassed any other members of the community on this whole subject, and so I apologise to all those who (in all fairness) probably wish I'd not made such a storm in a teacup (and had just shut up). However, I do know about running communities and I do know a lot about designing and running elections, and I stuck my neck out to try and ensure this board wouldn't go the way of others I've seen start out with the best of intentions and rapidly turn into dead-ends. I also feel that Athomas's clear "don't care about the abstainers" attitude is extremely insulting, irrespective of whether I was in that group, and it was primarily a reaction to this that brought down the tone of my last post.

Anyway, it looks like I'm not achieving anything at all, so I'll shut up. Once again, sorry for wasting your time.

EDIT: Someone just asked me if I thought this election was "rigged". (I publicly stated I was standing and had emailed; Athomas acknowledged he'd seen this; Athomas didn't check with me despite the discrepancy; once I'd confirmed publicly my intent to stand, Athomas said he'd leave me off because he thought I was standing down; when I clarified my meaning, he did nothing; the "top two positions" went to Shawn and Abstain, but Athomas said this could be ignored). This thought had never occurred to me, but just the fact that it did occur to someone is the kind of thing that I was trying to avoid by getting the elections right. I stand by my accusation that this election is "crud"; it should never have been possible that the election might appear "dodgy".

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #44 - Posted 2004-02-16 05:01:12 »

To re-interate:

Quote


Not to say that these folks shouldn't start the job asap, but this whole election process strikes me as slightly dodgy...

Kev



Kev

Offline Athomas Goldberg

Junior Member




Grrrrrr...


« Reply #45 - Posted 2004-02-16 18:39:49 »

While I'm more than willing to admit that that the election process was less than ideal, something I hope the community and the newly elected board will address before the next election, and that I could have been more flexible with regard to "sticking to the rules" I take some offense at the idea that the election might somehow have been rigged.

Neither myself nor any member of the GTG was involved in nominating the candidates and there was certainly no "stuffing the ballot box" which should be obvious from the number of abstentions (One of which was mine, btw. Since the election rules prohibited me from voting, and, given the way "hidden" polls work, abstaining was the only way for me to monitor the election)

I absolutely agree that the number of abstentions is a clear indication that there were several issues with the election process that must be addressed, so I don't believe that those who abstained have gone unheard. Even without my own abstention, as many people voted to abstain as voted for Greg (which is no reflection on Greg to be sure). While I don't think there's anything that can be done to completely eliminate abstentions, I do think the percentage should be much lower next time.

Finally, it was my idea to hold an election, rather than simply invite specific members of the community to become "advisors" as we certainly could have. It would have been faster and easier (and probably less controversial) but I stand by my belief that the community should control its destiny. This is why the board was created and why this election took place.

Athomas Goldberg
Project Lead / Wildcard
Game Technologies Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #46 - Posted 2004-02-17 07:26:34 »

Indeed.  If there were issues, lets just do better next time.

No point bitching at people who are just trying to make Java good for games.  This was a one off event that needs to be done better next time, lets do it better next time and just get on with things for now.
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