deployment/distribution problem...

[misterX]

hello,

i've run into a problem: how to distribute nicely what is done?!
The application is using java3D and needs access to the network. It's intended to be several games using a common base.

There are 4 distribution possibilities:
1) as jar files
2) as applet
3) with webstart
4) an install file


1) Jar files.
--------------
The problem here is that people must first maybe install JRE, then install java3D, then download the files and lastly run them. Surely a bit too unconvinient for an "average user". This will surely make "common people" to even not try to make this procedure.

2) As applet.
----------------
It's maybe not the nicest solution for some bigger game, but why not, at least it starts immediately.
The java version is detected and a newer version of java is installed if needed, a java3D plugin is installed as well, all this automatically. The problems are coming now: the program is more than one jar, but how to handle multiple jars in an applet?! (i wouldn't like it at all to make one huge jar). The other possibility would be to leave the classes just like they are, but then, is it possible to sign classes only? Because i need to sign them in order to have access to network!

3) With webstart
----------------------
first problem: no auto-install for java3D, must sign jars, make things... and each program will have their own copy of java3D! (well, i think, because they aren't installed as extensions but as native libs)
second problem: everything must be signed, again!
third problem: plugin architecture impossible! (Or not?!)

4) All in an install file
--------------------------
Have you seen the size of the latest JRE?! 14+MB! Java3D isn't that small either (4+ MB), and all combined together makes a pretty big install file for a tiny jar. And this for every one of the small games!
Another problem is the nasty event that JRE & Java3D setup are launching "inside" the main setup, it's not only ugly but also annoying to install 3 things instead of one.


Damn, there are so many possibilities and none seem to be fitting! Isn't there some nice solution?

I'm seeking your advices...

[Jeff]

1) Jar files.
--------------
The problem here is that people must first maybe install JRE, then install java3D, then download the files and lastly run them. Surely a bit too unconvinient for an "average user".

Thats why instalelrs were born.  InstallAnywhere NOW is even free.

2) As applet.
----------------
It's maybe not the nicest solution for some bigger game, but why not, at least it starts immediately.
The java version is detected and a newer version of java is installed if needed, a java3D plugin is installed as well, all this automatically.

Um HOW are all these amazing things happeneing? Applets dont do any of this by themselves.
I think you are confusing Applets with Webstart.

3) With webstart
----------------------
first problem: no auto-install for java3D, must sign jars, make things... and each program will have their own copy of java3D! (well, i think, because they aren't installed as extensions but as native libs)

yes this is a problem.  Webstart as we ship it will only get  auto-installers from the Sun installer server which isnt very up to date

if yo uare up for soem coding you might be able to get around this by using OpenJNLP. The only question is how you get that JNLP client down first.  Basically a bootstrap problem.

second problem: everything must be signed, again!
third problem: plugin architecture impossible! (Or not?!)

Im not sure but I believe webstart apps can request permissions without beign signed.  then its up to the user if they want to trust your unsigned app...

Seems to me you left one possability out. Its the simplest.  Simply tell your users they need to insatll the JRe and Java3D and give them links to downlaod the installrs. Not ideal I know but they will only need to do it once...

[misterX]

Thats why instalelrs were born.  InstallAnywhere NOW is even free.

That brings us to point 4.   BTW, InstallAnywhere isn't able to launch setups or any file inside a setup, but that's not a problem, other ones can.

Um HOW are all these amazing things happeneing? Applets dont do any of this by themselves.
I think you are confusing Applets with Webstart.

Using scripts in the web page. You can see it in action here.

Im not sure but I believe webstart apps can request permissions without beign signed.

native libs like java3d's ones must be signed to be accepted.

Seems to me you left one possability out. Its the simplest.  Simply tell your users they need to insatll the JRe and Java3D and give them links to downlaod the installrs. Not ideal I know but they will only need to do it once...

Yep, it's also my favorite solution... if only "average people" wouldn't be afraid to install 3 things in order to play something... :-/

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Jeff]

Went there. All I got was "Applet failed to load."  ??

[misterX]

because of my lazyness, it's only working for IE.
Could it be that?

[Jeff]

Nope. Im using IE

[Bombadil]

because of my lazyness, it's only working for IE.
Could it be that?

I am using Opera.

[princec]

It's possible to use a bit of Javascript to detect the existence of the Java plug-in, and present to them the jnlp link. Otherwise you present them with a link to an installer for their OS, which does a full JRE install, and then auto-launches the jnlp link when it's done to continue downloading via Webstart. So to the end user it's still a one-click install.

Webstart can install shared extensions (I install the Bouncy Castle crypto provided as a shared extension).

As far as signing is concerned - this is sheer impatience on ours, the developers', part. It's probably the single most significant contribution to trustworthy computing initiatives this millenium ( ) and it's a great idea. So just bite the bullet and sign your code - even if it's not with a trusted cert. The more users get used to seeing code signing the more they'll come to expect it and the more they'll worry about installing .exes. In these troubled times of viruses and worms on the net the comfort of trusting the safety of a downloaded application is going to be more and more appealing.

I can point you at several total utter disasters on download.com even now waiting for the unsuspecting Windows user. Download "Save Kobe" at your peril - it'll install a whole world of evil shit all over your machine and you've got no idea how to get rid of it or what it's doing or where it came from or who has to answer for it.

Cas

[misterX]

To jeff: i'm sorry it doesn't work. i'm still suprised and wonder why this happen, i tested it on 3 machines and it was working, you should first be asked to install a java3d plug-in and then the applet should start. No idea why it doesn't work. But anyway, i want to find another solution.

To cas: I know of it, but the disadvantages still remains: no auto-install for java3D, must sign jars, make things... and each program will have their own copy of java3D! (well, i think, because they aren't installed as extensions but as native libs)

...i'm sleeping over it before any descision...

[swpalmer]

My WebStart rant of the day: All of the optional packages (formerly "Standard Extensions") should be available from Sun as Web Start extenstion installers that can be referenced directly in the  JNLP files of Java developers.

Why this still hasn't been done is a huge mystery.  Instead Sun seems to incorporate optional packages into the core with every new release (e.g. JAXP, JSSE...), while the developer community complains about bloated JRE size...   Go figure.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Jeff]

I agree with everything except the mystery.

I know why it hasn't happend, its a classic big comapny SNAFU thing, and I get heartburn even thinking about it

Until there is a real outcry form the community I'm almost sure it won't get fixed.  So if it matters to you guys, make noise.

[swpalmer]

I've submitted a RFE.  I'll post back when/if I get a public bug number for it.

[swpalmer]

RFE for optional Packages to be hosted in a Web start compatible way by Sun:

http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/5009463.html

[DrBizzar0]

Sorry. We couldn't find your document.

It doesn't come up if I search for a bug with that id either. I found this, quite similar entry though.


http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4801527.html