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  How to cheapen the Java brand!  (Read 2203 times)
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Offline ags1

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
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Make code not war!


« Posted 2013-10-21 17:02:27 »

Do you have a programming language and runtime environment that is just too cool for its own good?

Do you want to make it look cheap, nasty and disreputable? Why not push useless browser toolbars and change people's default search engine if they are being just a little inattentive?



Come on Oracle, don't treat Java like an opportunity to push junk onto users!

Offline Jeremy
« Reply #1 - Posted 2013-10-21 17:03:43 »

Man... I know.

I cringed when I installed the java runtime (after a long break) and saw that...

JevaEngine, Latest Playthrough (This demo is networked with a centralized server model)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWA8bajpVXg
Offline ags1

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
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Make code not war!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2013-10-21 17:07:13 »

To misquote GNU,

You have Free as in 'Freedom',

You have Free as in 'Beer',

And you have FREE as in 'Junk' :-)

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Offline Zhon

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #3 - Posted 2013-10-21 18:19:10 »

Is this shit for real? I thought it was fake before reading the full post  Emo
Offline SHC
« Reply #4 - Posted 2013-10-21 18:32:48 »

Quote
Get the best of the Web delivered to you!

It's not the best, it's the worst. Angry

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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★★★★★


« Reply #5 - Posted 2013-10-21 18:46:43 »

Although crappy move towards consumers, there is no real need to worry about the Java brand becoming any cheaper, its already the laughing stock when it comes to security and its commonly advised that it should be uninstalled.

Besides all serious deployed Java apps have already moved to using a bundled JRE and the system JRE is becoming less and less relevant.

Interestingly I remember reading somewhere the amount of money made from these bundled toolbars is enough to fund the entire current Java SE development team, not sure where that was posted though.
Offline Zhon

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #6 - Posted 2013-10-21 19:39:29 »

Stupid question but how exactly do they make money out of bundles & toolbars?
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


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Hand over your head.


« Reply #7 - Posted 2013-10-21 19:50:52 »

Search providers add ads to the search results, which make them money, so they typically want to broaden their reach by aggresively pushing their toolbars, paying whoever is willing to bundle it in their installer.

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Offline Grunnt

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Complex != complicated


« Reply #8 - Posted 2013-10-21 19:57:04 »

My advice would be: if you deploy your Java application to your customers, NEVER use the Oracle malware-infested installer. Java is a great language and the JVM is pretty amazing, but please save your users this junkware and use an embedded JRE or some other solution such as Excelsior JET instead.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #9 - Posted 2013-10-21 21:07:27 »

Runiter already posted a petition about that on Change.org:
https://www.change.org/petitions/oracle-corporation-stop-bundling-ask-toolbar-with-the-java-installer

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Offline Dxu1994
« Reply #10 - Posted 2013-10-21 22:16:02 »

Wow...

Time to start writing C launchers and bundling my own JRE..

Offline opiop65

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JumpButton Studios


« Reply #11 - Posted 2013-10-21 22:17:11 »

Its... Its bad. I personally don't mind, but the general public who know nothing about Java probably are very put off by it.

Offline Cero
« Reply #12 - Posted 2013-10-21 22:35:17 »


Which won't succeed if this is true:
Interestingly I remember reading somewhere the amount of money made from these bundled toolbars is enough to fund the entire current Java SE development team, not sure where that was posted though.
And I can absolutely see that being true.

Offline ags1

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
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Make code not war!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2013-10-21 23:31:17 »

What... so they can fund the entire development effort for Java SE from the Java plugin, but they nevertheless neglect the Java plugin to the extent that it is widely discounted as a security risk?

Offline Mac70
« Reply #14 - Posted 2013-10-22 00:06:42 »

What... so they can fund the entire development effort for Java SE from the Java plugin, but they nevertheless neglect the Java plugin to the extent that it is widely discounted as a security risk?

Vicious circle. Less people thrust JRE > Less downloads > Less $$$ > More aggressive product placement > Less people thrust JRE > ...

Everyone makes mistakes, corporations are no exception (I would even say that most of corporations are making a lot of mistakes and bad decisions).

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Online Abuse

JGO Coder


Medals: 11


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #15 - Posted 2013-10-22 03:42:01 »

It's incredibly short-sighted; they're sacrificing the Java brand for a minuscule ad revenue.

You can't blame Oracle though; this lunacy started under Sun.
Java has been mismanaged since the very beginning; that it still remains a somewhat relevant technology today is a testament to how good it could have been.

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Offline philfrei
« Reply #16 - Posted 2013-10-22 04:20:31 »

I just opt out of these dang things. I never install piggy-backs.

But I find their presence kind of reassuring, indicative that Java and Oracle must be somewhat successful in a mainstream sort of way, or certainly Mozilla wouldn't be bothering.

Also, I figure it is a good thing if Oracle is able to offset some of the costs of supporting Java with out directly requiring me to pay anything. This is much better than the situation with Microsoft technology.

"Greetings my friends! We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives!" -- The Amazing Criswell
Offline ra4king

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I'm the King!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2013-10-27 23:13:40 »

I have never seen that Ask Toolbar before because I never download Java from www.java.com

I go directly to the source: java.sun.com and click on Java SE on the right or the newest update, both lead to the same page: www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html

Offline Agro
« Reply #18 - Posted 2013-10-27 23:30:59 »

I have never seen that Ask Toolbar before because I never download Java from www.java.com

I go directly to the source: java.sun.com and click on Java SE on the right or the newest update, both lead to the same page: www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html

pacman -S jdk7-openjdk

8D 8D

Offline l3dx

Junior Member


Medals: 1


Say what?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2013-10-28 09:25:29 »



That is all.
Offline Regenuluz
« Reply #20 - Posted 2013-10-28 11:06:59 »

Do you want to make it look cheap, nasty and disreputable? Why not push useless browser toolbars and change people's default search engine if they are being just a little inattentive?

If people don't pay attention to what they install, then it's honestly their own fault. You're free to uncheck the "install Ask Toolbar" option, it's not in any way forced upon you, unless, of course you don't pay attention to what you install on your computer. But if that's the case, then I doubt that the tool bar will compromise your computer more than it already is.

Offline matheus23

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You think about my Avatar right now!


« Reply #21 - Posted 2013-10-28 11:12:15 »

pacman -S jdk7-openjdk

8D 8D

Just what I do Grin

See my:
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Offline Regenuluz
« Reply #22 - Posted 2013-10-28 11:15:54 »

I never said it was. But people should learn to pay attention to what they're doing and learn to think for themselves. Remove the warning labels from things and let the world sort itself out.

Edit:

Besides, the least a user could do, is read the screens presented to them when they install software.
Offline Regenuluz
« Reply #23 - Posted 2013-10-28 11:59:54 »

Licence? No. So I've probably given away my soul a few times and everything I own. However, every other install screen and checkbox, yes, including change logs for the apps I use and there's a good chance I'll stop using an app if they present no change log over their updates(I'm not looking for super detailed change logs, just something stating the nature of the update. e.g. bug fixes, added something, removed herobrine, etc.). Documentation is for documenting features and special cases, I check it if I need it. However, I've yet to try a click-and-install where I needed the documentation to be able to figure out if I should check one box or another.

I'll agree that it's not very nice of the Java people to stuff those checkboxes in there and having them checked by default. But isn't the least a user could do, to check what's written on those screens? What else is the point of the screens, if not to provide information and choices?

Besides, it's not like it's something that's hidden away somewhere, it's written in a big bold font, all on it's own screen.

You're almost arguing that people have a right to sue others, because they cut themselves on a knife, and no where did it read that the knife was sharp.
Offline princec

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2013-10-28 12:37:56 »

No, not in this case. I download a Java installer, I'm expecting to install Java. I don't read all the crap inbetween double clicking and FINISH. I don't really have the time or the inclination to keep my wits about me when I'm just trying to get something trivial done. It's underhand. Hopefully though the whole system JRE thing will be utterly dead within 5 years.

Cas Smiley

Online Abuse

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falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #25 - Posted 2013-10-28 12:51:30 »

Even worse is that every time you download an update(which are automatically thrust upon you under the pretence of 'security and performance improvements'), that crapware checkbox is there waiting to catch you unawares.

Users wouldn't tolerate crapware being bundled with every single patch of their OS, .net runtime, adobe flashplayer*, etc etc.
Why does Oracle think it should be tolerated with Java patches?

*(adobe do bundle crapware with flash & acrobat installs, but not with automated updates)

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #26 - Posted 2013-10-28 14:13:09 »

Even worse is that every time you download an update(which are automatically thrust upon you under the pretence of 'security and performance improvements'), that crapware checkbox is there waiting to catch you unawares.
To make matters even worse is if you do accidental tick the ask toolbar check box while installing Java you can't immediately uninstall the toolbar as it doesn't install immediately. The Ask toolbar installer hides itself and then waits 10 minutes before silently installing. Probably hoping users will forget about it and not uninstall it. This malware type behaviour just rubs it in even more.
Offline SHC
« Reply #27 - Posted 2013-10-28 15:54:25 »

If ever I meet the guy who made those toolbars  Angry Angry Angry

Offline Troubleshoots

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Damn maths.


« Reply #28 - Posted 2013-10-28 15:57:58 »

Oracle are just in it for the money at the moment. Next we'll be seeing a $500 charge to download the jdk.

Why are all OpenGL tutorials written in Brainf**k?
Offline Mike

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Java guru wanabee


« Reply #29 - Posted 2013-10-28 16:12:33 »

Oracle are just in it for the money at the moment. Next we'll be seeing a $500 charge to download the jdk.

This isn't anything new, Sun did exactly the same:
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/from-reddit-you-sun-bundling-trialware-with-the-latest-java-update-is-bs/21257/view.html

At least they improved the scaling of the java logo since then Smiley

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
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