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  Java on PS4 Initiative  (Read 2682 times)
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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Posted 2013-07-30 00:24:06 »

Perhaps it's a good idea to define what exactly the result of this effort should be. What people should expect. What people should not expect.

I'll make a first pitch (feel free to shoot holes in it Smiley)

What people should *NOT* expect:
* A way for any java developer to run and test their games on any PS4; you'll still need a devkit, and you'll still need to go through the proper channels at Sony to get anything published. This won't miraculously turn the PS4 into an open platform.
* Support for things like Java2D, Swing, AWT, JavaSound.

What we should aim for:
* An headless JVM to be embedded in a game.
* An OpenGL binding (I'd personally prefer LWJGL because of its popularity)
* Basic support of PS4's controllers
* Basic support of PS4's sound system
* Preferrably a popular higher level library, such as libgdx (interesting for it's wide platform support).
* All of this should imho be available under a liberal open source license.

Nice to haves:
* Support for some basic PSN features, such as in-app purchases, trophies, that kind of thing.
* A port of an existing game as a proof-of-concept.


When we're clear about what the scope of this will be, we should actively try to make people interested to work on this.
We should also be prepared for costs.
My understanding is that a PS4 devkit costs about 2500$.
Perhaps we shouldn't expect people to work for free on this too, so we should probably aim at making an assessment here of what the total costs of this will be.

/braindump

Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 114
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #1 - Posted 2013-07-31 19:47:36 »

Split as a separate topic from the previous (which is now in chitchat) Pointing
Offline Zhon

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #2 - Posted 2013-07-31 22:10:31 »

So... anyone got a chance to get a DevKit?
My professors won't apply for one because there isn't really a reason for "Why the PS4 blabla is essential to your university course blabla" required for universities to apply.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #3 - Posted 2013-07-31 22:30:36 »

I think the most important question here is this:
Would anyone be seriously interested at all in being able to release a game on PS4/PSN, or is the PC and Android world just enough for what we intend to do?

Just guessing from the reactions in 'that other thread', I guess almost everybody is perfectly happy with PC and Android, and quite uninterested in consoles.
If so, we should probably just end this thread right here.
After all, there are also things like Unity, which is available right now and already runs on practically everything.

Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #4 - Posted 2013-07-31 23:34:07 »

Even a proof of concept would be interesting to show, for example during Siggraph 2014.

Offline Cero
« Reply #5 - Posted 2013-08-01 00:12:15 »

Getting a game on PSN is borderline like getting it on Steam imo D:

Not to mention your game is actually on a freaking game console.
With a gamepad ready and everything

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #6 - Posted 2013-08-01 00:41:20 »

Well, you know, if you want to get on a real console with Java now, support the Ouya.
If you've got an eye on the near-term future, look to the Steam Box.
But Playstation and XBone? ... it's unlikely to be really worth the effort unless you're literally a AAA studio.

Cas Smiley

Offline pixelapp

Junior Member




Pixelapp


« Reply #7 - Posted 2013-08-01 07:58:06 »

^This. It would take the effort of the entire Java community and then wait for the hesitant approval of the Playstation people. All of this excruciating work just to support one console.

If making this happen is not as hard as thought on this thread, then it would be very likely to happen. Until then, we just have to tinker around.

Cloud games and fun.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #8 - Posted 2013-08-01 20:01:05 »

While that's all true of course, my thinking was that it would never hurt to at least investigate if it will be doable at all.
What the cost would be, if we could find the people to work on it, potential technical or licensing issues, that kind of thing.

Right now we don't really know much what Sony's plans are wrt self-publishing and how 'indie-friendly' the PS4 will really be, and the user base for the time being is 0 people.
Once these things becomes more clear and when/if PS4 will become actually interesting for us, we'd have a better idea of what to do.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2013-08-02 00:15:58 »

I have a gut feeling that it'll actually be fairly easy to get headless openjdk working on PS4. LWJGL would be relatively simple to port from there. But if you remember how bad Sun and Oracle are at getting anything useful done in a timely fashion for indie game devs, you can imagine Sony, which is a bit like (Sun x Oracle)2. It looks like a fun sort of project, for certain values of fun, for people who live in total darkness for most of the year and have few physical friends.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Cero
« Reply #10 - Posted 2013-08-02 11:51:13 »

Maybe notch would be able to convince sony to at least care / look at it.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2013-08-02 11:54:46 »

Markus has no powers against Sony.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #12 - Posted 2013-08-02 15:09:44 »

He could just try to suggest that Minecraft is very popular and its java aaaand you wanna have more games like this on your platform and not xbox, riiight ?

you know, just trying :D

Offline Sammidysam
« Reply #13 - Posted 2013-08-02 16:15:20 »

For XBOX, didn't Mojang hire 4K Studio (was that the company?) and then that company ported it to C++/C#?  Therefore, if Minecraft really wanted a place on PS4 I could see them rewriting it in C++/C#.  I find that more likely than trying to set up Java on the PS4, which probably would end up being more work.
Offline Jeremy
« Reply #14 - Posted 2013-08-02 16:17:14 »

For XBOX, didn't Mojang hire 4K Studio (was that the company?) and then they ported it to C++/C#?  Therefore, if Minecraft really wanted a place on PS4 I could see them rewriting it.  I find that more likely than trying to set up Java on the PS4.

This is a good point.

Honestly, porting Java code to C# .Net is a relativity easy process - Microsoft has definitely been encouraging developers to do it. Most of the process can be done automatically. If it isn't done automatically - a lot of it can be done 'blindly' per se.

Porting to C++ would be a lot more difficult since Java and C++ are much further apart than Java and C# (which was built with Java in mind.)

XBox does have support for the .Net Compact Framework as well.

JevaEngine, Latest Playthrough (This demo is networked with a centralized server model)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWA8bajpVXg
Offline Cero
« Reply #15 - Posted 2013-08-02 19:16:25 »

For XBOX, didn't Mojang hire 4K Studio (was that the company?) and then that company ported it to C++/C#?  Therefore, if Minecraft really wanted a place on PS4 I could see them rewriting it in C++/C#.  I find that more likely than trying to set up Java on the PS4, which probably would end up being more work.

Yes Yes, but politically we dont have to say it out loud. If Notch were interesting in helping getting java there, he would just say "well this is done with java, you better develop an interested."
its all poker

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #16 - Posted 2013-08-02 19:44:33 »

*SIGH* Hey everyone.... Grin Been to this dance twice before....hoping 3rd times the charm!

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #17 - Posted 2013-08-05 21:33:27 »

*SIGH* Hey everyone.... Grin Been to this dance twice before....hoping 3rd times the charm!

LOL yeah, and I guess a lot of the cynicism about the subject comes from there Wink
Still, at least an effort was made and was met with enthusiasm from the community, even though it didn't pan out (that I guess had mostly to do with Sony).
All said and done, I guess having you and (to a certain degree) Sun behind this community is missed here (at least by me Smiley).

Offline Cero
« Reply #18 - Posted 2013-08-05 23:15:48 »

lol Chris popping in like that. You rascal :P

Yeah well... lets hope without being too optimistic

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #19 - Posted 2013-08-06 12:46:17 »

*SIGH* Hey everyone.... Grin Been to this dance twice before....hoping 3rd times the charm!

Heh.  Deja vu all over again, huh?  Well hopefully this time will be different - the stated attitude towards indies and the fact that Minecraft is one of the biggest indies games out there might work in our favour this time.

Anyway, Hi Chrism!!!  How the hell have you been?
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #20 - Posted 2013-08-06 23:45:58 »

I have a gut feeling that it'll actually be fairly easy to get headless openjdk working on PS4. LWJGL would be relatively simple to port from there. But if you remember how bad Sun and Oracle are at getting anything useful done in a timely fashion for indie game devs, you can imagine Sony, which is a bit like (Sun x Oracle)2. It looks like a fun sort of project, for certain values of fun, for people who live in total darkness for most of the year and have few physical friends.

Cas Smiley

So what are you saying, that the problem is that this depends on people with no friends who live in total darkness?
That's not a very optimistic view of the ambition of the java game development community  Shocked

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2013-08-07 01:07:17 »

Nah, I'm saying the problem is that Oracle and Sony are going to be particularly difficult to work with.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #22 - Posted 2013-08-07 02:22:55 »

I will call them MYSELF :D

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #23 - Posted 2013-08-07 23:44:24 »

Nah, I'm saying the problem is that Oracle and Sony are going to be particularly difficult to work with.

Cas Smiley

OTOH I seem to remember you working around such things wrt Sun/Oracle with your custom embedded JVM by just doing it Smiley
As for Sony, well that's a bit of an unknown to me. You'd think they'd have no problem with anyone buying a devkit, especially considering their apparent love with indie games currently.

We can just assume the worst and not bother, or we could do some research about what it would take to enable java there. Perhaps even as just a purely theoretical excercise of establishing if we can actually do it, what it would cost, and if there are actually any java games that could be good on PS4.

So far I just see a cost of $2500 for a devkit, but next to no interest in doing anything with it. I could just lap up that money myself if that would be what it takes, but so far even that seems basically pointless at this point.
Maybe java gaming is as good as it's going to get now?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2013-08-08 00:56:58 »

If you got it to work I'd refund you and release our arcade games on PS4 Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #25 - Posted 2013-08-08 21:01:39 »

Touche Smiley
But if money would be the problem, then your money is as good as mine Wink

Offline Cero
« Reply #26 - Posted 2013-08-09 02:56:47 »

I always have kappa in mind for this task, I dunno why, probably because he is one of the lwjgl devs

kappa and davedes
get on with it ! :D

heck the lwjgl devs should do this. Stop working of LWJGL 3.0 for 2 months and there you go :3

Offline Andre Lopes
« Reply #27 - Posted 2013-08-10 20:01:30 »

I always have kappa in mind for this task, I dunno why, probably because he is one of the lwjgl devs

kappa and davedes
get on with it ! Cheesy

heck the lwjgl devs should do this. Stop working of LWJGL 3.0 for 2 months and there you go :3

Hopefully jon wont call you Obama.

Anyway, well if money isnt a problem, maybe its the lack of interest?
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