Java-Gaming.org Hi !
Featured games (83)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (522)
Games in Android Showcase (127)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (590)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 [2]
  ignore  |  Print  
  [Final Decision] LWJGL or LIBGDX  (Read 6493 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 294
Projects: 11
Exp: 3 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #30 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:15:05 »

@heisenbergman: I agree, and have agreed for a long time. It seems that some users of LibGDX aren't satisfied with letting people do what they want.

@masteryoom: What are you trying to achieve here?

Offline heisenbergman

JGO Coder


Medals: 14


L___ o_ G___ a__ P___


« Reply #31 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:23:05 »

@heisenbergman: I agree, and have agreed for a long time. It seems that some users of LibGDX aren't satisfied with letting people do what they want.

Point taken. Glad you agree Cheesy

If new person comes to the forum and says they want to use 'pure' LWJGL, then don't scream at them to use LibGDX.

If they say they don't want to use 'pure' LWJGL, by all means, scream.

Why apply one standard to one approach but a different one to the other? Huh

Currently:

If a person decides to use LWJGL, what happens? USE LIBGDX! USE LIBGDX! USE LIBGDX!
However, if a person decides to use to LibGDX, nothing.

@People saying they should be presented the options and allowed to choose: Don't present the options. It will be biased. The very most would be 'You can use LWJGL/JOGL by itself, or libGDX'

The point is you can write direct lwjgl code with libgdx as well.
And also you are way out of line saying libgdx is hard to setup. Lwjgl is DEFINITELY harder to set up. For basic desktop programming with libgdx you just have to add 2 jars, that's it.

FWIW, I had a harder time getting stared with libgdx for whatever reason.

I remember reading a LWJGL tutorial, following it, and I got it running immediately. I think I just added the JAR file and pointed to the naitive library and that was it.

With libgdx, it mentioned Android and HTML5 and wasn't clear if they were required or optional and if I had to download the Android SDK and GWT and stuff like that

...what I ended up doing was setting up a project using this libgdx project setup tool from aurelienribon.com and I also configured Eclipse to work for Android and GWT developement.

I think I even had to edit CLASSPATH for some of those iirc.

So idk... my experience of setting up libgdx was more difficult than when I tried out LWJGL.

Offline masteryoom

JGO Coder


Medals: 5
Projects: 2


If you look closely, you might see it turning...


« Reply #32 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:25:25 »

@heisenbergman: I agree, and have agreed for a long time. It seems that some users of LibGDX aren't satisfied with letting people do what they want.

@masteryoom: What are you trying to achieve here?
@HeroesGraveDev, I am trying to stop this argument before it derails this thread and it ends up food for the Chitchat Monster  Shocked

Smiley
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 294
Projects: 11
Exp: 3 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #33 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:26:14 »

I now want to bring this argument to an end.

Let me present a deal.

LibGDX supporters will not try and convert people who want to learn GFX programming to LibGDX.
LWJGL supporters will not try and convert people who don't want to learn GFX programming to 'pure' LWJGL.
When a person asks whether to use LibGDX/LWJGL(/JOGL), you may present your choice and a list of resources and features,
BUT
You may not force it on them and you may not mention the other choice in any negative way or say anything in such a way that leads them to believe that one is inferior to the other.

Just accept that there are different kinds of programmer out there.

Offline heisenbergman

JGO Coder


Medals: 14


L___ o_ G___ a__ P___


« Reply #34 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:27:36 »

@heisenbergman: I agree, and have agreed for a long time. It seems that some users of LibGDX aren't satisfied with letting people do what they want.

@masteryoom: What are you trying to achieve here?
@HeroesGraveDev, I am trying to stop this argument before it derails this thread and it ends up food for the Chitchat Monster  Shocked

But isn't the thread about LWJGL or LIBGDX... which is precisely what the argument is about...? Grin

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #35 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:28:08 »

Or don't answer them because this kind of question has been asked hundreds times. Browse the thread list and you'll see.

Offline masteryoom

JGO Coder


Medals: 5
Projects: 2


If you look closely, you might see it turning...


« Reply #36 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:30:14 »

@heisenbergman: I agree, and have agreed for a long time. It seems that some users of LibGDX aren't satisfied with letting people do what they want.

@masteryoom: What are you trying to achieve here?
@HeroesGraveDev, I am trying to stop this argument before it derails this thread and it ends up food for the Chitchat Monster  Shocked

But isn't the thread about LWJGL or LIBGDX... which is precisely what the argument is about...? Grin
No because people will start going "libgdx can do this, lwjgl can do this" and it will become a showoff thread for both libraries which there already are threads for.

Smiley
Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 294
Projects: 11
Exp: 3 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #37 - Posted 2013-05-03 07:31:12 »

@masteryoom: You are the one most responsible for the derailing of this thread. I recommend you stop posting until you have something intelligent to say.

Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 55



« Reply #38 - Posted 2013-05-03 08:41:28 »

@HeroesGrave
Actually its not about stopping people from using LWJGL once they decided, that they want to use it. its about giving the hint, that if they learn something new to make games, they might be better off jumping to libGDX directly, because it gives them better options to make an advanced game once they overcome the getting started block. there are just more features and integrated tools in libGDX. also there are a lot more people making actual games. getting android support is the next plus if you intend to earn some money.

sure you can do games with LWJGL, but its way more work to get a polished non-trivial game done. There is just too much temptation to burry yourself in fiddling or ending up doing an "engine", eating up all your time. I've been there, burned my spare money, and am back to J2EE now, so might be "biased" - decide for yourself...

But maybe I am wrong. Maybe its better to start with pure LWJGL. youll need to do a bunch of simple (pre-)games to learn anyway, so why not do this in LWJGL, just to get in touch with native libs, low-level data structures and math and do a more educated decision if you are on the verge of creating your own engine or library...

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline NegativeZero

JGO Knight


Medals: 34
Projects: 2


Zero but not.


« Reply #39 - Posted 2013-05-03 09:10:12 »

Use jMonkeyEngine

//sarcasm
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Nate

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 158
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #40 - Posted 2013-05-03 09:53:44 »

or making a wheel that has only 6 vertices.
Hahaha! Grin

All the nonsense above about stopping the discussion: Hi, welcome to Internet forums where things are discussed. If you don't like the discussion, then don't read or don't post. Telling others not to post is rude.

Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 294
Projects: 11
Exp: 3 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #41 - Posted 2013-05-03 09:54:00 »

@cylab: I agree with all your points there. I realise that I am lucky to start so young where I have plenty of free time and no need to make money while I learn. The tools you use should be relevant to your time and resources.

I did do lots of 'frameworks' to test and develop my skills between my publicly displayed projects. Lately however as I have less to learn, the amount of these games has dropped, and instead I have more time to work on bigger projects.

The funny thing is, my skill at making actual games has increased as my skill at graphics programming. It means that the graphics fits the game. Therefore I don't have some game with overused cheap disgusting 'high-tech' effects and terrible gameplay.

The main thing that makes me want to know this:

Someone had to make LibGDX in the first place, and they knew how to program GFX with just LWJGL.
There has to be someone to write engines if/when LibGDX/OpenGL/Java is gone/useless.
If not me, then I can at least teach people who will be around when that happens.

Second reason:

Convert tutorials from C++ to Java+LWJGL.

@Nate: I don't mind discussion. It's the endless argument across many threads that I want to end. The discussion is good.

Offline davedes
« Reply #42 - Posted 2013-05-03 11:51:27 »

HeroesGraveDev - I was in your shoes not too long ago, as a firm user of "pure LWJGL" for over a year. Then I tried LibGDX, and realized how foolish I've been all this time. Smiley

Using LWJGL doesn't make you a better "tinkerer" or "graphics programmer." In fact, I would argue the opposite. You are wasting your time with boilerplate and unnecessary debugging; and at the end of the day, your product won't run on Android, iOS, or WebGL.

Quote
There has to be someone to write engines if/when LibGDX/OpenGL/Java is gone/useless.
If not me, then I can at least teach people who will be around when that happens.
I have learned more about writing large, scalable engines since I started working with LibGDX. This is because I am like you; I do not want to just use the tools at hand to make a game. I am more interested in graphics programming and engine/middleware development. So when I use LibGDX, I also inspect its source code. It becomes a great reference for programming with OpenGL (using proper standards and fixing small bugs per-platform) and also a good reference for building a large 3D and 2D game framework.

Offline ctomni231

JGO Wizard


Medals: 99
Projects: 1
Exp: 7 years


Not a glitch. Just have a lil' pixelexia...


« Reply #43 - Posted 2013-05-03 12:33:42 »

Hmmm, this is quite an interesting discussion.

As far as I'm concerned, LibGDX is built on top of LWJGL, so you should have access to all the boilerplate code. But, to see it devolve into OpenGL infighting...

I have to admit, from my experiences, LWJGL/Slick2D is a bit easier to set up than LibGDX. It took a bit more effort to set up LibGDX because it has a bit more requirements to gain access to the Android and WebGL platform. So, I have to say that it is a little bit tougher to set up, and to cut the newbies some slack in that regard.

As for which platform to use...

I think what needs to be realized is that there is no perfect platform for gaming. Just like we can't argue why we are still programming in Java when C/C++ is a lot more powerful. Discussion about why LibGDX beats out LWJGL and Java2D is all useless. There are many comparisons out there to what is happening really, and all of these things cause very passionate discussion. Some examples are film cameras vs. digital cameras. Drawing art on the computer vs. drawing art by hand. Old video games vs. new video games. etc...

To be honest, everyone is going to have their opinion on the matter. The other point is, everyone is correct in their judgement.

So, here is the deal, all you new (and veteran) people out there.

It doesn't matter.

You code for yourself. You create for yourself. You need to be able to enjoy whatever platform you are coding in. If you are having a hard time creating something in a platform (whether it be Java2D, LWJGL, JOGL, LibGDX, C, Python, C++)... do yourself a favor and work with something you will understand. Involving yourself in a holy war for the platform king is cute, but ultimately, it's a huge waste of time. Let's face the facts, it doesn't get any gaming projects done if you aren't having fun creating it.

Let people say what they want. Ultimately, YOU are the one making the gaming project, so YOU have to decide how best to do it. If you are struggling with some aspect in a platform so much that it gets frustrating, it is probably a good time to switch. But if you are learning new things about the platform you are in, that is really the only thing you'll need to make yourself a better programmer, and hopefully a better game designer as well.


 

 


Offline alaslipknot
« Reply #44 - Posted 2013-05-03 13:06:11 »

Games build with Lwjgl
Games build with LibGdx

i don't want to be childish (even if i am  Roll Eyes ) but, let's be honest here, for a newbie game developers, seeing what people has achived with the current language,engines,framework,library or any development tools, will give him a big push up and huge motivation to keep working with that tool, and just like what most of you said (except libGdx extremist fans  Pointing )
a noob developer should just stick with what ever he saw "easy" to work with, i don't regret starting this topic cause i really was scared that i will spend months learning lwjgl without being able to finish ANY project, even a little one, so i wanted to ask, and now am sure that i will keep learning lwjgl for 2 simple reason :
1- i like the way i pronounce "lwjgl"  Roll Eyes
2- it has a very good wiki to start with   

one last thing,
@libGdx team,
setting up libGdx is not the only problem (i didn't get any error with the Desktop version),but the thing is that there isn't enough resources to learn from, even the forum is not very active.
so my suggestion to one of you (or all of you) why you don't make a better tutorials for noobs, ignore the Android and WebGl, just a getting started tutorial for desktop developing and finish it with a simple game example, NOT PONG !!, anyone who learn how to draw, and use input will know how to create a pong, ithink a SpaceInvader is the most educative example for a game development.

"It's not at all important to get it right the first time. It's vitally important to get it right the last time."
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #45 - Posted 2013-05-03 13:16:31 »

Games build with Lwjgl
Games build with LibGdx

i don't want to be childish (even if i am  Roll Eyes ) but, let's be honest here, for a newbie game developers, seeing what people has achived with the current language,engines,framework,library or any development tools, will give him a big push up and huge motivation to keep working with that tool, and just like what most of you said (except libGdx extremist fans  Pointing )
a noob developer should just stick with what ever he saw "easy" to work with, i don't regret starting this topic cause i really was scared that i will spend months learning lwjgl without being able to finish ANY project, even a little one, so i wanted to ask, and now am sure that i will keep learning lwjgl for 2 simple reason :
1- i like the way i pronounce "lwjgl"  Roll Eyes
2- it has a very good wiki to start with   


You linked unofficial wiki that have been updated (Apr 19, 2012 by) and you are comparing mobile to pc games. Fair comparision IMO.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #46 - Posted 2013-05-03 13:23:34 »

As far as I'm concerned, LibGDX is built on top of LWJGL
Actually, LibGDX has several backends and one of them is based on LWJGL.

Offline alaslipknot
« Reply #47 - Posted 2013-05-03 13:23:48 »

You linked unofficial wiki that have been updated (Apr 19, 2012 by) and you are comparing mobile to pc games. Fair comparision IMO.
oh..
i thought that's the official, i didn't mean any cheating here,
is this the official one ??

"It's not at all important to get it right the first time. It's vitally important to get it right the last time."
Offline Regenuluz
« Reply #48 - Posted 2013-05-03 13:54:37 »

My personal biggest hassle with LibGDX(The second biggest reason I wont be using it, at least for now), is that it assumes that I'll be developing to multiple platforms at once.

I don't give a shit about mobile platforms(If I did, I'd learn to code in their native language, e.g. Objective-C for iPhone/iPad(Yes, I know, Android uses Java, but I don't use Android and don't care much for their broken market and fractured platforms)) and I don't care about WebGL either, so I rather dislike that the default setup of LibGDX forces me to have several projects in Eclipse, just to make a simple desktop game.

I managed to set up LWJGL, with javadoc/source code attached, far far faster than I figured out how to setup a LibGDX project.

But like I said, I'll eventually try out LibGDX, but until then I'll be "wasting" my own time.

Personally I think the best answer to this question is to just link to the sites, and let the person asking the question do some reading, instead of trying to bias them towards something. And when they've reached a decision, help them with their questions about whatever platform they chose, instead of saying "omg omg, x is so much better than y!!one11! lyk serisly!"

Repeating what've been said already: Choose whatever you find the most easy, and move on when/if it becomes necessary. Smiley
Offline nexsoftware

Junior Devvie


Medals: 9



« Reply #49 - Posted 2013-05-03 14:07:49 »

My personal biggest hassle with LibGDX(The second biggest reason I wont be using it, at least for now), is that it assumes that I'll be developing to multiple platforms at once.

I don't give a shit about mobile platforms(If I did, I'd learn to code in their native language, e.g. Objective-C for iPhone/iPad(Yes, I know, Android uses Java, but I don't use Android and don't care much for their broken market and fractured platforms)) and I don't care about WebGL either, so I rather dislike that the default setup of LibGDX forces me to have several projects in Eclipse, just to make a simple desktop game.

I managed to set up LWJGL, with javadoc/source code attached, far far faster than I figured out how to setup a LibGDX project.

LibGDX doesn't force you to do anything... It is dead simple to set up a project for desktop only.

1) Download LibGDX (stable or nightly, doesn't matter)
2) Open Eclipse
3) Create a Java Project
4) Add libs: gdx.jar, gdx-natives.jar, gdx-backend-lwjgl.jar, gdx-backend-lwjgl-natives.jar ... attach the sources if you want.
5) Code
Offline Regenuluz
« Reply #50 - Posted 2013-05-03 14:13:22 »

LibGDX doesn't force you to do anything... It is dead simple to set up a project for desktop only.

1) Download LibGDX (stable or nightly, doesn't matter)
2) Open Eclipse
3) Create a Java Project
4) Add libs: gdx.jar, gdx-natives.jar, gdx-backend-lwjgl.jar, gdx-backend-lwjgl-natives.jar ... attach the sources if you want.
5) Code

Well, couldn't find that anywhere when I tried to set it up. I ended up using the GUI tool to set up my projects, and that creates at least 2 projects.

But hey, like I said, I'll give LibGDX another swirl some time, and there's a far bigger chance that I'll do it, now that I know that I'm not forced to have multiple projects for 1 game. Smiley
Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 138
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #51 - Posted 2013-05-03 15:07:35 »

Like I said before, people focused on LWJGL may not even know of other libraries like libgdx, so we should inform them of those other options and the benefits of them. Maybe they do want something more high-level so they switch to libgdx, which they didn't even know about before. If they still want low-level, than fine, go ahead with lwjgl.

Also...libgdx is even easier to setup than you guys mentioned...just use the gdx-setup-ui.jar. Graphical interface, can update libgdx, can include tweenengine or the physics body editor loader thingie (I forget what the official name is).

@Regenuluz
You are forced to have multiple projects, sorry Tongue
At least the "game" and "game-desktop" I think. idk if the android project is required.
Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 138
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #52 - Posted 2013-05-03 15:09:59 »

As far as I'm concerned, LibGDX is built on top of LWJGL
Actually, LibGDX has several backends and one of them is based on LWJGL.
thought the jogl one was deprecated? Are there ones other than lwjgl and jogl?
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 55



« Reply #53 - Posted 2013-05-03 16:41:42 »

You are forced to have multiple projects, sorry Tongue
At least the "game" and "game-desktop" I think. idk if the android project is required.
Nope. As nexsoftware pointed out, doing a desktop only project is just a normal java project with the gdx jars in the classpath. The ui and separated game project stuff is just if you target multiple platforms...

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 138
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #54 - Posted 2013-05-03 17:51:59 »

You are forced to have multiple projects, sorry Tongue
At least the "game" and "game-desktop" I think. idk if the android project is required.
Nope. As nexsoftware pointed out, doing a desktop only project is just a normal java project with the gdx jars in the classpath. The ui and separated game project stuff is just if you target multiple platforms...
Oh, so you just put both the lwjgl desktop launcher and the code in the same project, huh. Stupid me.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #55 - Posted 2013-05-03 20:16:17 »

As far as I'm concerned, LibGDX is built on top of LWJGL
Actually, LibGDX has several backends and one of them is based on LWJGL.
thought the jogl one was deprecated? Are there ones other than lwjgl and jogl?
The backend based on JOGL 1 is deprecated, the backend based on JOGL 2.0 works quite well.

Offline Nate

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 158
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #56 - Posted 2013-05-04 14:24:53 »

is this the official one ??
Yes. Be sure to also see the 640+ libgdx games on the showcase forum.

My personal biggest hassle with LibGDX(The second biggest reason I wont be using it, at least for now), is that it assumes that I'll be developing to multiple platforms at once.
Here is runnable code for drawing with SpriteBatch. See how the main method is in the same class? You can put this code in a single project that depends on the LWJGL backend and run it.

thought the jogl one was deprecated? Are there ones other than lwjgl and jogl?
For the desktop there are LWJGL, JOGL, GLFW, and GWT backends.

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #57 - Posted 2013-05-04 16:55:49 »

Using GDX with maven is simple too: https://gist.github.com/chuckadams/5518074

With this POM, there's no need to set java.library.path while developing, the natives plugin takes care of it.  As for your final product, the appassembler plugin used in that pom will get you a launcher script but you'd probably want to switch to something like launch4j for a real release.
Offline badlogicgames

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 71
Projects: 2



« Reply #58 - Posted 2013-05-04 18:09:28 »

@alaslipknot We power about 3.5% of all installed Android apps. 2% of the top apps. http://www.appbrain.com/stats/libraries/details/libgdx/libgdx We are on par with Unity on that platform. Even Google uses libgdx for their augmented reality game Ingress. We also have a few games on steam, and had strong usage in the last ludum dare. For a Java game dev library, that's pretty neat, and much more than i ever expected.</ad>

On the topic: i'm of the opinion that you should know what you do. There's nothing wrong with learning OpenGL. Whether you do that with LWJGL, JOGL, libgdx (You can accesss OpenGL ES 1/2 in a cross-platform manner) doesn't matter. davedes has a very nice lightweight lib for LWJGL that you can use if libgdx is to much of a hassle to setup. You'll be limited to the desktop, and will miss more advanced features, but that's enough to play around with rendering techniques.

Concerning the setup hassles: i hear you. That's what you get if you try to deploy to more than just the desktop. I personally do not thing that the burden is that big, order of installation is JDK, Eclipse, Android SDK/ADT, GWT, and optionally Xamarin.iOS. Not a lot we can do about that. For those who want to only develop for the desktop, that's easy as well. Don't use the setup ui, create a new project and link to gdx.jar, gdx-natives.jar, gdx-backend-lwjgl.jar and gdx-backend-lwjgl.jar. Add a second source folder that contains your assets and off you go.

TL;DR: learning low-level stuff is awesome and will make you a better person. What tech you chose does not matter a single bit.

http://www.badlogicgames.com - musings on Android and Java game development
Offline alaslipknot
« Reply #59 - Posted 2013-05-04 18:41:01 »

@badlogicgames
i didn't mean any offense when i linked the projects build using lwjgl and others using libGdx, that was just the 1st result i found which also give me the 1st impression, however, am sorry if i offended you or decreased libGdx's value .

"It's not at all important to get it right the first time. It's vitally important to get it right the last time."
Pages: 1 [2]
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

trollwarrior1 (34 views)
2014-11-22 12:13:56

xFryIx (73 views)
2014-11-13 12:34:49

digdugdiggy (52 views)
2014-11-12 21:11:50

digdugdiggy (46 views)
2014-11-12 21:10:15

digdugdiggy (40 views)
2014-11-12 21:09:33

kovacsa (66 views)
2014-11-07 19:57:14

TehJavaDev (70 views)
2014-11-03 22:04:50

BurntPizza (68 views)
2014-11-03 18:54:52

moogie (83 views)
2014-11-03 06:22:04

CopyableCougar4 (82 views)
2014-11-01 23:36:41
Understanding relations between setOrigin, setScale and setPosition in libGdx
by mbabuskov
2014-10-09 22:35:00

Definite guide to supporting multiple device resolutions on Android (2014)
by mbabuskov
2014-10-02 22:36:02

List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!