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  Judging panel results.  (Read 5959 times)
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Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #30 - Posted 2013-03-26 10:00:08 »

Of course I knew it was based on Mario Kart.

The biggest drawbacks with Rainbow Road were that it was more of a thrill-ride game with no obvious goals or levels. After 5 minutes there was no end in sight, and I became quite lost and thought "What now?".

I maybe agree with your normalized top 20 that it should be higher than some other games there, or some of the other games there should be lower. In any case, I like games that provide you with a well rounded gameplay that keeps you occupied and interested throughout, and not just for 2-3 minutes.

While Rainbow Road would definitely win a technical award, if we had one, we have to weigh in other factors as well.


But a game like FlyWrench4k has much more to offer:
- It is original with clean graphics.
- It has a small learning-curve, but is intuitive and comfortably challenging at the same time.
- It is a puzzle game that offers new twists every new level.
- It keeps you interested throughout, willing to retry to beat the new challenges.
- It has simple gameplay, flapping the flywrench through a maze of seemingly impossible obstacles.
So it's very well rounded, while Rainbow Road just leaves you hanging after that initial thrill ride.

And to be honest, I think my fellow co-judges went a little overboard Rainbow Road scoring. Although I admit I probably didn't do it justice. At the end of the day that's why we have many judges at not just one, to balance out mistakes.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Grunnt

JGO Wizard


Medals: 64
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #31 - Posted 2013-03-26 10:31:03 »

You never played the N64 game that this 4K game was based on?  You never played any version of Mario Kart?  Why are you even a judge?

I must say I'm somewhat surprised to hear you, as your fifth post on this forum, ask "Why are you even a judge?" to Appel, who organizes the Java4K contest. I really can't see the point of your little "analysis".

And does having played some historical games qualify one to be a good judge? This is not the "Java4K-remake" contest Grin I'd argue that games should get bonus points of originality: it's much harder to make something really original and innovative than to do a remake. Rainbow Road is a great entry, it's graphically really awesome for a 4K game, and it's even somewhat fun to play.

Dissenting opinions on games is a Good Thing. When we all think alike, no one thinks very much.

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #32 - Posted 2013-03-26 10:54:03 »

Hmm I don't like where this going - questioning judge's taste toward something that people think "obvious".

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline BenniBanni

Senior Member


Medals: 2
Projects: 2



« Reply #33 - Posted 2013-03-26 11:54:30 »

Why are you even a judge?

Postings like these make me sad. I mean... WTF?!?!
I... err...
I'll give it up... Anything i could answer, would be an insult as well.  Angry

So - back to the judges and the results:
Thank you all for the vast amount of time you must have sacrificed to the judging-panel.

And thanks for the 18th place of Fuego! I'm really happy  Grin

Based on a little extrapolation of my reached ranking from last year (49th of 51) to 2013 (18th of 68), i should easily win the java4k 2014 ... Haha!  Wink
Offline mojo
« Reply #34 - Posted 2013-03-26 12:24:13 »

Big thanks to the judges for their work, really great to have such feedback. I always got worst score from Appel and that is cool by me.
The best part about it is the score metrics we get. You can make your game more popular by naming it FamouseIP4k and take a niche game-play mechanics form another game.

So Braid4k would be the BOMB!!! (seriously considering making it  persecutioncomplex )
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 336
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #35 - Posted 2013-03-26 14:09:00 »

Haha something similar to Braid4k has already been made! Check out "Behind the wall of sleep" Smiley

@appel did you not see the glittering bar on Rainbow Road showing the finished line? This game was an exact replica of the original with laps and everything. Smiley

Either way I agree with the others that dissenting opinions is the point of multiple judges and provides the most well rounded results.

Offline Sunsword

Junior Member


Medals: 3



« Reply #36 - Posted 2013-03-26 15:53:07 »

I would like to propose that we increase the size limit for next year's contest, so we can fit in all the missing/cut features. How about 4.1k? It has a nice ring to it  Grin

How about 4.01K?  401K has a nice ring to it. Wink

Regarding judging, I thought the giving the community the opportunity to give feedback with the points was great.  I hate to leave a comment on the game's page itself, since it's visible to everyone forever.  It's nice to have a way to give feedback to the developer that's associated more closely to the round of judging.

I'm looking forward to next year's contest.  I had 3 or 4 games in the works that were playable but needed work; however time is my scarcest resource these days.  A 1-year-old and a 3-year-old take up an awful lot of time and energy!  I guess I have a starting point for next year's contest.
Offline Rooster_Miami

Junior Newbie





« Reply #37 - Posted 2013-03-26 19:45:39 »

I maybe agree with your normalized top 20 that it should be higher than some other games there, or some of the other games there should be lower.


Before the judges submit their final scores, they should be able to view a sorted list of their individual results.  Or, why not let the judges simply order the games as oppose to assigning a number to them?  The ordering itself could establish a score.  For instance, if there were 50 games, the lowest in the sequence would be assigned 0% and the highest 100%.  Everything else would be, in this case, 2% higher than its predecessor.  I think that would have prevented Frog Solitaire and Rainbow Road from sharing the coveted 20th place.
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2013-03-26 21:00:08 »

I maybe agree with your normalized top 20 that it should be higher than some other games there, or some of the other games there should be lower.


Before the judges submit their final scores, they should be able to view a sorted list of their individual results.  Or, why not let the judges simply order the games as oppose to assigning a number to them?  The ordering itself could establish a score.  For instance, if there were 50 games, the lowest in the sequence would be assigned 0% and the highest 100%.  Everything else would be, in this case, 2% higher than its predecessor.  I think that would have prevented Frog Solitaire and Rainbow Road from sharing the coveted 20th place.


I'm not sure what "20th place" you're talking about.

Rainbow Road got #2nd place from the judges, not #20th place, and with only 0.9% less score than the one in #1st place. If you got a game that got 90%+, then you got a superb game. I don't see how that is unjust. (The reason we don't show normalized scores from individual judges is perhaps of this, one judge can be more wrong than a handful of them, which is why you have multiple judges in some judiciary systems, so "right" judges can cancel out "wrong" judges).

You have to realize the grades are subjective and games are reviewed through a period of couple of weeks, but most of all there were almost 70 games. Keeping all the knowledge of all games at the tip of your mind to be able to quickly order them, as you suggest, is pretty hard. You might have a handful of favorite of games, but we have to weigh nearly 70 games.

I have already suggested a new judging method based on classification buckets, which I may implement for next year. So there's no need to create more complex grading rules which at the end of the day may not change anything for the final results.



Also, (not speaking of Rainbow Road here)

I've re-played many of the games that some thought were mistreated by the judges and I can't say there were many mistakes that would affect the top 10. Maybe 10-20. Most likely 20-40. It's easier to say which game is best and which is worst, than to re-arrange the games in absolute order of how good they are from the center.

Of course mistakes do happen, but with games like 4k games, the first-impression is often the right one. You also have to consider we also have to view these games as some casual player would view them... if you have to read manual, if it just doesn't intuitively play from start, then casual players won't bother with it.

Judges are also under a time-restraint, only allocating limited time to each game. The only reason for a judge to spend more than 20-30 minutes on a game is because it's so fun to play and addictive. If he's struggling with understanding it and spending a lot of time on it because of that, then there's something wrong with the game, not the judge. That's the reality, even if you may perfectly understand your own game, the same is not for others, judges or casual players. (And in my case about Rainbow Road, it was easy to start playing, but after a while it became quite pointless with no encouragement or challenge to continue).

I say, if you have to read the instructions to play, you can improve the presentation and how intuitive your game is. If you have to keep reading the instructions while playing, you've done something wrong.

Apo's games were probably the most "mistreated", at least a few of them, but other than that not much else would affect the final result.



I'll be sure to invite you on the judging panel for next year Smiley

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline StephR

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #39 - Posted 2013-03-26 21:46:25 »

Shame on you, appel, for not being a sheep.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline bainit

Junior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 1



« Reply #40 - Posted 2013-03-26 23:43:54 »

All of us should respect others point of view even if it is completely different than our.
Do not be intimidated judges, I appreciate your work.
And remeber this is only fun:).

In my opinion there will be no perfect solution for judging.
The idea of judging and community voting with giving feedback is realy good.

We can describe the problem in this way: how to avoid wrong positioning in case if of the rate is completely different than other.
Maybe we should try e.g. expected value rather than arithmetic mean of all scores

But there still will be only smoothing:)
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #41 - Posted 2013-03-27 03:07:59 »

Increasing game capacity to 4.01k or 5k can render all previous (4k) games to be less fun. You can't imagine what kind of thing will be happen on that 0.01kb, the possibility is endless Cool also 4k is easier to spell and shorter to tweet.


Offline kramin42
« Reply #42 - Posted 2013-03-28 02:50:19 »

Thanks for reviewing my games, appel, Drabiter, and ra4king! Especially because they both required a bit of reading to understand how to play, which must get annoying when you're reviewing 60+ games.

I guess I've probably played Mancala too much and forgotten that it can be difficult for new players; Mancala's rules can be a bit confusing and you'll probably have a few "wtf why does red get all of my balls" moments before you learn the rules properly.

I'm quite pleased with how my games did Smiley I didn't really expect many people to play CodeGolf4k but I thought I'd enter it and see whether anyone liked it and it seems that ra4king liked it a lot! (did you manage to beat the last level? That one took me a while to figure out when I created it and I knew what the trick was)

@appel: you're right about me liking math and most of the levels in CodeGolf4k require a good understanding of recursion to solve, so yeah, I guess only the nerdiest of nerds would want to play a game like that...let alone create one  Grin

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." - Ernest Rutherford.
CodeGolf4k
M4nkala
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 336
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2013-03-28 03:15:02 »

And that nerdiest of nerds is me, I LOVED CodeGolf4k! Smiley

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #44 - Posted 2013-03-28 03:35:09 »

I prefer* M4nkala over CodeGolf4k because it is simpler to play so enjoyable in short time. The game rule comes from "batumi", a traditional board game on my country and only played by 4-10 yo girls.

*) I code MVC web and use Evernote from CLI! is that nerd enough? Grin

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