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  this forum software is a DISGRACE to SUN  (Read 9609 times)
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Offline mis

Junior Newbie




I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Posted 2002-10-20 16:14:46 »

sadly enough, this forum software is a DISGRACE to SUN. Sun promotes jsp and java. However it's TOP experts are running CGI

It makes me sorry i got my sun certification and makes me want to study .NET and everything else .

This cgi stuff makes me wonder why in the world would i ever want to build any software with jsp and java since sun will not even use it .

The message this sends is BAD  - even to me who is sun certified.  Somebody should grab you guys CHRIS and JEFF and shake some Sense into you guys.

Come on !
Offline mis

Junior Newbie




I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2002-10-20 16:16:42 »

unless of couse this is simply a demonstration of the true state of the technology
Online princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 435
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2002-10-20 20:51:50 »

aww, come on, the new forums are amongst the best the web has to offer now, give 'em a break...

If you're Sun certified I reckon that qualifies you to write the replacement in Java eh?  Tongue

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #3 - Posted 2002-10-20 22:20:26 »

Hmmm...Mis, not quite a suggestion but ok, I'll bite.

cas is right. Among easy to use and FREE, YaBB is very good.  If you know of a better piece of software, written in Java (and we already know about Jive), let us know.

-Chris

Offline pepe

Junior Devvie




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #4 - Posted 2002-10-21 05:53:16 »

well, i agree there. Sun is already licensed to use Jive, and you should have no problem using it here.
while this board is better than the other one for inserting code, Jive would be better for this and other things.
But, imho, the forum discussion is of no use. we already changed, while there seemed to be more people for Jive than for other BBS, we got this. IMHO, we have more important things than  creating an other sterile debate on forums.

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
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GoSub: java2D gamechmark http://frederic.barachant.com/GoSub/GoSub.jnlp
Offline mis

Junior Newbie




I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2002-10-21 12:13:41 »

1. I would have no problems porting this to  java / jsp. I would be eager to do it.

1a.  Could someone please list the issues you have with Jive or I would be pleased to find some reasonable specs to program to.  
or when you get some specs could you please email it to stephenjava @ yahoo.com I'm pretty sure some other guys would like to get in on this as well.

2. I strongly believe it does damage to the java initiative for a Sun sponsored site to run something other than a java based bulletin board. For me this issue is very clear and it's never too late to change the board.

mis
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #6 - Posted 2002-10-21 18:37:08 »

A couple things...

1) This is site was created to promote and support the use of Java in professional games, not web development in general. (Chris can clarify the mission statement over my blurb)

2) Sun can indepedantly promote any technology they want in regards to web developement AND games, and they have.

3) Sun is NOT Java.  I think you mean that this forum software is a disgrace to Java not Sun.

An independant Java gaming group/site might really want to use Java only technologies whereever possible (i.e. the forums) if there goals were to promote Java in general as well.  This site is SEMI-independant  Wink

Can you really give a "Strong(tm)" arguement for this forum to be in Java?  I tried because I would like to see it too... (maybe if the site hosted some Java games so that having the lastest Java installed would be required in your browser...)




Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline pepe

Junior Devvie




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #7 - Posted 2002-10-22 13:08:11 »

well, if i were a dumb ass person that had to get an eye on the possibility to create games using Java apis, and saw that the bbs was using perl, i think i would think (Huh)
"well, if they don't use their technology for 'simple' web stuff, why would i use it for my high tech needs? Go back playing with your applets, kids..."
<rant>
Something you have to understand is that the more you give elements for people to beat you, the more they will use them.  We have strong tools and technologies. Let's show them, or we'll perish because of ignorance of those that won't look more than the surface ( and these are the most guys we'll ever have to count on to be successful )
Microsoft understood that. They do tons of little things for their tools, lots of those that are not so useful but please their users and are immediatly attractive, and they take care to carefully hide their problems. Not that we need to do the same, but we need to SHOW things, instead of saying that they are there. Few people will take time to look by themselves. If you don't understand that, you are dead.
This is the problem with Java, that does not have a eye candy showcase.  Most will not see what's the difference between C, .net and Java, or even VB.  We have demos coded by coders, and they seem to be for coders. JAWS has ridiculous demos that play against itself, while it should have beautiful games and applications. If we want to be succesfful in promoting java for gaming or apps or web, we need to target USERS and not CODERS. Coders don't buy, users do.
Biggest problem of Java is that it does not have what microsoft has: a central entity that handles marketing, demos and coders. Once we get games, we'll get gamers and companies will follow.  Until a first step of high quality is done, we'll still be waiting...
Jeff, sorry for being a bit aggressive, but i see the lack of f1racing and FPS demos as this first step. You have the solution to make things go forward. Don't take time to change the forums and the board.  takes thoses demos out, and let the name spread !!! This is more important than anything else. And if you have problems, talk about them, we're here to help, and there will certainly be people, me included, that will be more than happy to do anything for you.
</rant>

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
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GoSub: java2D gamechmark http://frederic.barachant.com/GoSub/GoSub.jnlp
Offline mis

Junior Newbie




I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2002-10-22 14:04:27 »

Shawn, you said

1) This is site was created to promote and support the use of Java in professional games, not web development in general. (Chris can clarify the mission statement over my blurb)

My answer:  Why would I risk studying java for games when  you won't even run the forum and web site on java technology. If java is too cumbersome or unreliable (which is the message you unknowingly send)  to use for a web site then why would I want - take the path less traveled and hope  to make the next generation of games with java.


A talk with any marketing expert will reveal exactly the same thing.

The reason for confusion is because there are a bunch of technologist making the decision and not marketing professionals.  

Running this forum and website on anything other than java sends the wrong message. And puts the effort even further behind.  Microsoft would never dare sell C# or .NET without running their web site on the same product. That's because they have marketing consultation.

And if you don't provide downloadable high quality games people will inevitably think you are lying about the potential to use java for games.

I know shawn mentioned something about making his games available. i see it no where. not good at all --- As a result of all these messages, programming games in java requires a whole lot more faith than religion . (which i actually do believe in the 2nd coming and all that )  But you guys make it clear i should not believe in java.

I would like to encourage you guys to do the right thing and when that is done I hope you can remove this embarrassing thread.

mis
Offline pepe

Junior Devvie




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #9 - Posted 2002-10-22 14:26:22 »

Quote
And if you don't provide downloadable high quality games people will inevitably think you are lying about the potential to use java for games.  

This is what f1game and fps are actually doing, imho. An avi is not a proof, and talks about demos on a booth are no more proof. Sorry, but in this world of vapourware and lying marketers, all we have to do to protect us agains intox is to contest what we don't have in our hands. That's what i do.

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
------------------------------------------------------
GoSub: java2D gamechmark http://frederic.barachant.com/GoSub/GoSub.jnlp
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #10 - Posted 2002-10-22 14:43:44 »

You guys pretty much restated in greater detail my perspective on this.

Are there any other/lurkers that would liike to speak?

I would really like to hear as many peoples opinions on this as possible, even if it is a "Me too", one way or the other.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline sanojo

Junior Devvie


Projects: 1


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2002-10-22 15:17:05 »

I have to agree that it gives a bad impression that a site pushing Java doesn't use it themselves.  

Doesn't Jive give free licenses for non-profit sites?  I would think they would be happy to have their product used by so many programmers/potential customers.
Offline mis

Junior Newbie




I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2002-10-22 15:18:19 »

You don't need a million dollar research to figure this one out. there needs to be a consistent message.

and  please stop palming off these videos as well.
Perhaps you can palm it off for 1 year but 2 ? now people are going to start getting very angry.


If phony balony  java game videos are continually palmed off going into the  year ( 2003 ) I'm 100%  sure the masses will start to call the javagaming community on it.

If you used JNI just fess up NOW that they were. Perhaps you can specify the model for using JNI and provide a little engine for it. We wouldn't mind.  I would gladly forgive if I finally had a realistic model in my hand to work with.   so just fess up if that's the reason why. It would be the source of a few jokes for about a month but then everyone would focus on the productivity games.  

But with me personally, I'm not going to be very very annoyed to see any movies. For me it will be a palm off and an insult.

 lets try to send a consistent message with this web site. We're promoting java period

mis
Online princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 435
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2002-10-22 15:26:58 »

Whereas I'm not so happy that the site isn't actually running on Java (which I know gives a bad impression from Java's main sponsors) I'm just rather relieved that the torture of the old forums is gone.

As for all the vapourware, hm, yes, it's getting long in the tooth and decidedly suspicious (licensing issues my arse, there's something fishy going on), but it's also getting off topic Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline nlmueng

Junior Devvie





« Reply #14 - Posted 2002-10-22 15:39:11 »

It does look bad, it is one of the first things I noticed when coming to this board since the change.  I thought it was going to be changed to java...

I am also waiting for the demos to come out....

Nathan
Offline markuskidd

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #15 - Posted 2002-10-22 15:47:09 »

I am about 10 months into studying Java and I've reached the point of trying to answer the "I try to run Java HelloWorldApp and it says it can't find 'main'" kind of questions, which I get on the email address listed on my website since I have a decently cool applet there.

I have written up a basic resources list with links that include this site for people like me who are trying to get started. I honestly don't know why it appears to spontaneously happen so much from people who I don't think have been exposed to the java performance/real world debates, but I almost always get next questions about whether after 10 months I think Java can compete because 'everyone' says it is too slow. This is evidence that the collective unconcious really exits -- the perception of Java's ineffectuality is speeping throught the internet, and it could be that the small things like this forum's underlying technology reinforce that.

I am really thrilled that the forum is up, and I don't really care that much whether it is implemented in perl or Java, but I do understand with the points being made in this thread about the possible consequences, as they are confirmed in my personal experience. I am hoping to reduce and eventually eliminate my dependence on expensive MS software (at least until I am not so poor  Tongue) and Sun is my only hope for stabilizing the opensource platform-independent movement (I've switched to Openoffice and Eclipse and I hope I don't have to revert).

The question is -- is Sun paying anyone to deal with this? The answer seems uncertain based on what I've been reading. The next question would be, if they aren't, would they allow a small group of community members to gain some administrative control over this site? That may be the most efficient way that it can become more effective as a tool for education about Java's potential. That seems to be the only way to deal with these problems, as I get the impression that both Jeff and Chris are maxed out with their current obligations... and as we have seen so many times already on the web, a group of qualified volunteers (with some oversight from the paid Sun staffers, perhaps) can do a lot to make things happen.

edited for understandability (and still not quite there in some places)
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #16 - Posted 2002-10-22 16:37:38 »

Personally, I don't really care much about this board not being java. It really doesn't make me run to M$ or .NET...
(Doesn't everybody know microsoft.com doesn't run on M$ for the most part as well??).
OTOH, I never had a problem withold  the forum software in the first place but I got a bit concerned when the rest of the site got removed, with the 'neglected' statement on the front page just sitting there for months and all... Now, months later, the site is still in the same state (forum only) with the only difference that it looks a bit better.
I still have hopes though that this site may go in the right direction again...

What I am also concerned about is that F1-racer demo which more and more seems like vapourware ('a little issue with the installer' ...  Embarrassed) and that almost every 'fast high quality java3d game' that people talk about only exists in the form of a very hard to find low quality mpg or screenshots that got removed from java-gaming.org.
Not very convincing to the public to say the least.
Even if all that great stuff will see the public that needs to see it, it may already becoming to show age.

I also agree with pepe's rant on most parts.

Erik

Offline markuskidd

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #17 - Posted 2002-10-22 17:01:41 »

I've taken the example of some posters from this site and started to send people to the Cosm website as an example of the Java potential. If they get a demo up there eventually, that may be the best thing.
Arachnae could work, but there isn't a very user-friendly way of getting that running (the Web Start isn't working for me, and installing GL4Java can be a bear).
Offline ivar

Senior Newbie





« Reply #18 - Posted 2002-10-23 16:59:38 »

First off - I appreciate the fact that these forums exist and the community surrounding it provides an astoundingly high signal to noise ratio. To me the actual software is next to irrelevant as long as it serves it's purpose. (This is java-gaming.org, not javaforums.org)

As for the use of PHP, I can understand. The most competitive players in web forum software market are still PHP based. Jive is pretty good, especially for largescale communities, but their pricing structure is aimed at the highend. The price/performance ratio of the various forums still points at the PHP apps.. some of the open source ones are quite good now too.

It's about the the best tool for the job.

(an aside in response to MS using it's own tools-  MS still uses BSD servers for Hotmail)

Offline markuskidd

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #19 - Posted 2002-10-23 17:36:40 »

Quote

As for the use of PHP, I can understand. The most competitive players in web forum software market are still PHP based. Jive is pretty good, especially for largescale communities, but their pricing structure is aimed at the highend. The price/performance ratio of the various forums still points at the PHP apps.. some of the open source ones are quite good now too.

It's about the the best tool for the job.


The fear I think is that the same kind of rational exists regarding Java game development. The most competitive players in the game development market are C and C++. Java is pretty good, but it lacks support and getting anything up and running is going to take more time because there is a smaller community behind it.  :-/ Without good resources, Java isn't the best tool for the job for game dev. either.

I think several posters have indicated that Jive's pricing structure would not be a factor? This hasn't been confirmed though AFAIK.
Online EgonOlsen
« Reply #20 - Posted 2002-10-23 18:21:42 »

I agree that this forum should better be implemented in java but i do understand that this basically limits the choice to JIVE (albeit it wasn't too expensive the last time i checked it out). If JIVE isn't an option for whatever reasons then the air is getting thin.
Another problem with promoting java for forums and similar applications is, that no one has it. Try to find a provider that offers JSP/Servlet-support at a reasonable price. I haven't found any. Everyone and his mother supports PHP and CGI, some even offer ASP...but JSP?

Oh, and i agree on the demos. People have to see what is possible with java and these demos should be decently looking...not just tech demos made by coders for coders. The user is not interested in feature X and Y but it has to look good and play fine. The feedback i'm getting about my site (http://www.jpct.net) often includes phrases like "i never thought that this is possible in java"...and some of these people have used java in their daily work for years. That is a fundamental problem. These people would never consider to use java for anything else then server-side application development (and maybe some swing-applications) until you show them that it's possible.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2002-10-24 18:12:12 »

ok, "me too".. I think it would be best if the forums were done with Java.  But I also see web forums and Gamiong as so completely different that I do not think the "wrong" message is quite as strong a message as others seem to think it is.

This is free forum software that works - why not use it?  We know that Jive works too, but it isn't free.. Hey the message I'm getting is that people are making money with Java but not PHP  Tongue

The more important thing IMHO is examples of Java games including the Grand Prix demo, Cosm, etc..  These sort of technology demonstrations are what will convince people that Java will work for games, forum software written in Java goes nowhere in proving that point.

Offline defiant

Junior Newbie





« Reply #22 - Posted 2002-10-24 19:22:15 »

OK the lastword on this site not being java based=>
http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGOForums/YaBB.cgi?board=volunteer;action=display;num=1035493645;start=0

seems it didnt like the use of B*itchin changed it to somethin else.

Do you want a real topic=>
http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGOForums/YaBB.cgi?board=suggestions;action=display;num=1035494085
Offline morbo

Senior Newbie





« Reply #23 - Posted 2002-10-25 13:58:58 »

Just found this today: http://www.mvnforum.com/mvnforumweb/index.jsp

It's open-source, and it's all J2EE based. Didn't have a long look at it, though.
Offline pepe

Junior Devvie




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #24 - Posted 2002-10-25 14:03:04 »

cool board. looks fast and also looks like a copy of this one..

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
------------------------------------------------------
GoSub: java2D gamechmark http://frederic.barachant.com/GoSub/GoSub.jnlp
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #25 - Posted 2002-10-25 17:35:09 »

Looked at the software.  Guys, it can't compare to this software, sorry.  It's still in beta and the feature set is quite lacking.  It may look similar, but it is just not as good.  Sorry!

Let's get back to game development.  

-Chris

Offline defiant

Junior Newbie





« Reply #26 - Posted 2002-10-26 14:45:13 »

morbo sorry for misleading you, the link above was supposed to be tongue in cheek.  Though interesting, the question of changing the BB was determined  to be trivial.

Saving grace is that even Chris didnt get it, he almost asked Zorak to eat us  Grin

Chris you can wipe the topic if you wish.
PS I just started watching space ghost because of your avatar. (for anyone in the UK channel 244 on sky)
Offline pepe

Junior Devvie




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #27 - Posted 2002-10-26 14:54:49 »

Quote
Looked at the software.  Guys, it can't compare to this software, sorry.  It's still in beta and the feature set is quite lacking.  It may look similar, but it is just not as good.  Sorry!

Mhh. yes, would certainly be worse than having a non java board.
Back to code. already too much energy lost here..

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
------------------------------------------------------
GoSub: java2D gamechmark http://frederic.barachant.com/GoSub/GoSub.jnlp
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Devvie




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #28 - Posted 2002-10-26 15:52:26 »

While I really don't care about the software that the forum uses (it is a forum after all), this wouldn't be the first time that I would complain about Sun not using its own technology.

The fact that the J2ME preverifier is in C is just a slap in the face IMHO. "Portable software is great, portable software is good, just port the preverifier to the Mac and you're all set?"

Hmmm... but I digress.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline defiant

Junior Newbie





« Reply #29 - Posted 2002-10-26 16:24:12 »

pepe me ?? Stone Huh Wahahaha [defiant ROTFL]
I like the caption.  Thats just herb in the background right  Wink
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