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  Java on PS4!  (Read 32687 times)
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Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #120 - Posted 2013-06-11 17:27:26 »

I predict Sony will boldly and confidently step on its own dick as it has done repeatedly in the past.
Offline Agro
« Reply #121 - Posted 2013-06-11 18:39:21 »

Sony did sign a deal with upstream. They should've done it with twitch D:

Online Cero
« Reply #122 - Posted 2013-06-11 19:24:32 »

I like ustream too :3

looks good for java @ ps4, does it not ? =D

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Offline deepthought
« Reply #123 - Posted 2013-06-11 21:29:50 »

upstream?

jocks rule the highschools. GEEKS RULE THE WORLD MWAHAHAHA!!
captain failure test game
Online Cero
« Reply #124 - Posted 2013-07-20 13:04:51 »

I would really like to know how likely it is jor java + lwjgl to work on the PS4
but I guess we will have to wait until release.

But with the x86 architecture, using openjdk, and the fact that opengl is present, it should technically work, right ?
and licensing should be totally a non issue with openjdk, and Sony cant really forbid the use of openjdk when you have the devkit, I guess

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #125 - Posted 2013-07-21 16:56:31 »

I've heard that PS4's OS is based on FreeBSD and that it supports OpenGL as a wrapper on top of its native rendering API, so I suppose it should be relatively easy to get Java+LWJGL+libgdx going there. I imagine it just requires a bit of investment and dedication to make this happen.

Online Cero
« Reply #126 - Posted 2013-07-22 12:06:56 »

I actually applied fora devkit, because Sony came out with this statement that students could get one.
But they wrote back only if a professor or what have would apply for us, or we would a registered developer with sony.
I have briefly looked at that registration form. But I don't know how likely it is for an indie developer to get in.

When it's a 100% sure that java, lwjgl, libgdx will somehow work then (hopefully our projects will also have proceeded a good bit), I will try it.

Offline ags1

JGO Ninja


Medals: 62
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


Make code not war!


« Reply #127 - Posted 2013-07-22 20:59:50 »

I'm waiting for jMonkey Engine support :-)

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #128 - Posted 2013-07-23 17:56:49 »

Quote
When it's a 100% sure that java, lwjgl, libgdx will somehow work then (hopefully our projects will also have proceeded a good bit), I will try it.

Surely it won't work out of the box so getting it to work should be considered a project in itself, which seems to be a great school project.

As always we have a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation here if we're actually interested in getting java running on PS4.
Perhaps it could be interesting to try and organise something. For example getting the usual suspects involved (lwjgl developers,libgdx developers etc) to see if they would be interested in making such a thing happen, and then organise a kickstarter campaign or something to make sure they at least wouldn't have to work on it for nothing.
I wouldn't be surprised if for example Mojang would be interested in donating there and I wouldn't mind donating myself.

And trying to get SCE involved in some form would of course help a lot. If only in the form of some technical support; providing some details about their OpenGL wrapper for example or other technical support would be great. Perhaps a bit of a long shot, but otoh they are making a lot of noise about making PlayStation an indie-friendly platform so an initiative like this would certainly look good on them.
And if anything, PS4 seems to be a great fit for Java. Lots of memory, x86, and Java makes it relatively easy for developers to leverage all those CPU cores.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #129 - Posted 2013-07-23 18:20:33 »

As soon as OpenJDK is supported on PS4, JogAmp should work almost out of the box, NEWT Controller API will probably have to be modified in order to support some features of its gamepad. The problem is that some Sony consoles support non standard OpenGL-ES versions (PSGL on PS2), maybe it will require some modifications in GlueGen.

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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #130 - Posted 2013-07-23 19:40:55 »

Yes it all 'would' and it all 'could'.
The question is if we're going to make it happen. It's up to nobody but this java community.

Offline concerto49

Junior Member





« Reply #131 - Posted 2013-07-24 08:40:11 »

As soon as OpenJDK is supported on PS4, JogAmp should work almost out of the box, NEWT Controller API will probably have to be modified in order to support some features of its gamepad. The problem is that some Sony consoles support non standard OpenGL-ES versions (PSGL on PS2), maybe it will require some modifications in GlueGen.

Porting OpenJDK would be the first issue. I'm sure they'd lock it all down for security / piracy issues. Linux on PS3 died for similar reasons.

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Offline Andre Lopes
« Reply #132 - Posted 2013-07-24 18:25:34 »

Surely it won't work out of the box so getting it to work should be considered a project in itself, which seems to be a great school project.
...
And trying to get SCE involved in some form would of course help a lot. If only in the form of some technical support; providing some details about their OpenGL wrapper for example or other technical support would be great. Perhaps a bit of a long shot, but otoh they are making a lot of noise about making PlayStation an indie-friendly platform so an initiative like this would certainly look good on them.
And if anything, PS4 seems to be a great fit for Java. Lots of memory, x86, and Java makes it relatively easy for developers to leverage all those CPU cores.

Im in!

If i can be a tester or help dev a little. Im not that good yet but, im IN!
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #133 - Posted 2013-07-24 19:41:38 »

Porting OpenJDK would be the first issue. I'm sure they'd lock it all down for security / piracy issues. Linux on PS3 died for similar reasons.

It's not the same thing at all though.
Porting a JVM that's going to be embedded in a game that's going through all the proper channels isn't a system-wide JVM for anyone to play around with.
Just think of it as a library like any other.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #134 - Posted 2013-07-24 20:11:19 »

Surely it won't work out of the box so getting it to work should be considered a project in itself, which seems to be a great school project.
...
And trying to get SCE involved in some form would of course help a lot. If only in the form of some technical support; providing some details about their OpenGL wrapper for example or other technical support would be great. Perhaps a bit of a long shot, but otoh they are making a lot of noise about making PlayStation an indie-friendly platform so an initiative like this would certainly look good on them.
And if anything, PS4 seems to be a great fit for Java. Lots of memory, x86, and Java makes it relatively easy for developers to leverage all those CPU cores.

Im in!

If i can be a tester or help dev a little. Im not that good yet but, im IN!

Awesome Smiley

I guess the real challenge here is to concert a community effort to actually start making things happen.
On top of my head:
  • Getting developers interested to work on this that have the ability to make it happen
  • To be ported: A headless JVM, LWJGL and/or JogAmp, libgdx. I'd vote to definitely have libgdx working there because it's popular and should help Android developers as well.
  • Have a goal of at least 1 game to be ported (PuppyGames? Other takers?). This would also help with getting Sony behind this (if they're interested in that game that is)
  • Making an assessment of how much this is going to cost (getting people paid, getting a PS4 devkit)
  • Contacting Sony about this idea. Perhaps they can help with the devkit or something too.
  • If needed, a Kickstarter campaign or similar to get the funds. This would imho be better than organising this privately as something like Kickstarter could help popularising the idea as well.
  • Getting people to notice this effort. Sending out press releases to popular publications and such.

A requirement for such an effort would imho be that this port (excluding the game itself) would have a liberal Open Source license so that it can easily be reused and enhanced.

Other thoughts?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #135 - Posted 2013-07-24 20:24:21 »

Already was talking to SCE about it but Sony are as usual useless ball-dropping corporate fools; trail has already gone cold. Just say no to console development.

Cas Smiley

Online Cero
« Reply #136 - Posted 2013-07-24 23:09:07 »

Already was talking to SCE about it but Sony are as usual useless ball-dropping corporate fools; trail has already gone cold. Just say no to console development.

Cas Smiley

Not surprised, but if it's legal and it should technically work, then we don't need their help at all, right?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #137 - Posted 2013-07-24 23:37:23 »

Technically no, the only problem is, currently they're all talk and no trousers. They're about as indie friendly as Microsoft are, they're just a bit better at the PR spin at the moment.

Cas Smiley

Offline jonjava
« Reply #138 - Posted 2013-07-25 00:17:53 »

Already was talking to SCE about it but Sony are as usual useless ball-dropping corporate fools; trail has already gone cold. Just say no to console development.

Cas Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

Offline Sickan

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #139 - Posted 2013-07-25 08:52:38 »

Couldn't you use something like RoboVM (at least when it's out of alpha) for consoles?
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #140 - Posted 2013-07-25 10:09:49 »

Probably, but frankly I don't want to go there, because it's a world of pain.

Cas Smiley

Online Cero
« Reply #141 - Posted 2013-07-25 14:55:38 »

Technically no
Yeah, I mean OpenJDK is open source x86 code, as soon as you have a PS4 devkit you just have to fiddle around with it and lwjgl and the end-product would be indistinguishable from a "normal" library / code.

Porting a JVM that's going to be embedded in a game that's going through all the proper channels isn't a system-wide JVM for anyone to play around with.
Just think of it as a library like any other.
Yup.

Ideally you would have Sony support or at least an OK. But if there is no licensing problem and no devil-in-the-details while trying to implement it, it should work.
Of course Sony can always be dicks and somehow check for Java stuff and forbid it, just because it's Java and for no other reason.
But hey maybe I'm too optimistic, but I kinda think that Sony will say "OK" or at least ignore and allow it. I definitely don't see them actively looking at it - why would they. Minecraft is the only argument, but even that is weak with Minecraft C# ports in existence and stuff.
Of course from a business standpoint I can understand if they would ban Java, even if it works, because it's simply a risk.
Theoretically these Java games could have some sort of performance or whatever problem, and then customers would complain to Sony and stuff. They would kinda have to say "we are not responsible for the QA of self published indie games". But at lest in the case of Microsoft I know that they did pretty rigorous tests on those games to make sure.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #142 - Posted 2013-07-25 17:42:08 »

Of course Sony can always be dicks and somehow check for Java stuff and forbid it, just because it's Java and for no other reason.
But hey maybe I'm too optimistic, but I kinda think that Sony will say "OK" or at least ignore and allow it. I definitely don't see them actively looking at it - why would they. Minecraft is the only argument, but even that is weak with Minecraft C# ports in existence and stuff.
Of course from a business standpoint I can understand if they would ban Java, even if it works, because it's simply a risk.

What risk is that? AFAIK all those security issues from last years have been related to browser plug-ins, but there's nothing inherently unsafe about an embedded JVM. I'd say it's safer than native code.
You're right there's no real incentive for Sony to put much effort in java, but I don't think they would be against it "because it's Java". After all, BluRay also depends on Java.

According to many indie developers, Sony has been very generous with loaning out PS4 devkits; "They are handing them out like candy"

Offline Andre Lopes
« Reply #143 - Posted 2013-07-25 18:35:00 »

Of course Sony can always be dicks and somehow check for Java stuff and forbid it, just because it's Java and for no other reason.
But hey maybe I'm too optimistic, but I kinda think that Sony will say "OK" or at least ignore and allow it. I definitely don't see them actively looking at it - why would they. Minecraft is the only argument, but even that is weak with Minecraft C# ports in existence and stuff.
Of course from a business standpoint I can understand if they would ban Java, even if it works, because it's simply a risk.

What risk is that? AFAIK all those security issues from last years have been related to browser plug-ins, but there's nothing inherently unsafe about an embedded JVM. I'd say it's safer than native code.
You're right there's no real incentive for Sony to put much effort in java, but I don't think they would be against it "because it's Java". After all, BluRay also depends on Java.


According to many indie developers, Sony has been very generous with loaning out PS4 devkits; "They are handing them out like candy"



So i think we should go for it!

Look, you seem to be master in this Console development. We need to ask JGO to open a section only for this and start organizing people, in a chat, like skype or Xfire. And we speak and see whats our first step. Talking here wont help much due to pessimists and trolls ( aka Xbox Fan Boys :Dhahaha joking ).

Anyway, I request that JGO please, open a section for this! We must be the java pioneers and do something about it! Would be fantastic, i can even call some college friends or maybe even some teacher would be interested in helping.What you think MATEYS ?
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #144 - Posted 2013-07-25 19:15:07 »

So i think we should go for it!

Look, you seem to be master in this Console development. We need to ask JGO to open a section only for this and start organizing people, in a chat, like skype or Xfire. And we speak and see whats our first step. Talking here wont help much due to pessimists and trolls ( aka Xbox Fan Boys :Dhahaha joking ).

Anyway, I request that JGO please, open a section for this! We must be the java pioneers and do something about it! Would be fantastic, i can even call some college friends or maybe even some teacher would be interested in helping.What you think MATEYS ?

Heh, I wouldn't call myself a 'master at console development' at all. I'd be glad to help where I can though, but my time is very limited so I'm not sure if I'd be the right person to really drive this effort to completion.
But I do think there is a clear opportunity here. Good money can be made on consoles, and Sony is actively supporting indie games development. Even on Vita, some indies have been very successful (which in itself is remarkable given its small install-base).
Microsoft is making some moves there too, but they seem to have their own specific agenda (Win8/Metro apps) where Java clearly doesn't fit.

I'm a bit disappointed that Cas isn't the least bit interested (or even frustrated about the whole console thing). I'm sure he has his reasons, but I think his games could be great 'poster-boy' games in this context. At least one good game as a proof-of-concept is really necessary in this project, in my opinion.

But I agree with you. If we're serious about java game development we should at least make a serious effort here.

Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 131
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #145 - Posted 2013-07-25 20:02:41 »

Not much point for a section regarding java gamedev on consoles until it's actually supported on a console (ouya doesn't count). I don't see any pessimists/trolls here either...
Offline Andre Lopes
« Reply #146 - Posted 2013-07-25 20:04:57 »

Ok, so i vote for JGO to open a forum section for this.

This isnt only for "making games", if java get into ps4, our language will gain a lot more supporters and we will gain more sallary and we will be more vallorized.
So yeah.
Its a big goal here!


With who we need to talk to get a forum section for this? Or maybe... If JGO let, i have a freee forums account. I can open a section there and giveaway mod rights etc. We need a place to discuss this and plan!

First thing : Open a forum section!

Question : HOW? with who we need to speak ?
Offline Andre Lopes
« Reply #147 - Posted 2013-07-25 20:05:57 »

Not much point for a section regarding java gamedev on consoles until it's actually supported on a console (ouya doesn't count). I don't see any pessimists/trolls here either...
its not about a section regarding that.
Its a section to make PS4 Support it! Its different.

And no, no trolls, i was just joking.Relax Cheesy
Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 131
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #148 - Posted 2013-07-25 20:08:23 »

It's not going to make a difference unless the ps4 devs check java-gaming.org, which I'm reasonably sure they don't. I'm not an expert in how to go about these matters, but I would come up with a reasonable argument for why java should be on ps4/future ps consoles and start a petition.
Offline Andre Lopes
« Reply #149 - Posted 2013-07-25 20:11:57 »

It's not going to make a difference unless the ps4 devs check java-gaming.org, which I'm reasonably sure they don't. I'm not an expert in how to go about these matters, but I would come up with a reasonable argument for why java should be on ps4/future ps consoles and start a petition.

Jesus.
You dont get it, do you ?
The section is for the Project to be easier to administrate. So the members can talk about it and make it work. Its not for Fun, or to show off stuff.

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