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  Java on PS4!  (Read 32624 times)
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Offline Cero
« Reply #60 - Posted 2013-02-25 21:26:33 »

Now, what about XBox720?
Its possible that with the XBox720 your machine has to be "always online" AND preowned/second hand games will be blocked. So maybe XBox720 will die horribly :D
Not likely though :|

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« Reply #61 - Posted 2013-02-25 21:33:40 »

I of course know absolutely nothing about the subject, so were I to say that it is Linux with a Sony shell on top of it would be complete speculation that you should completely ignore.

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« Reply #62 - Posted 2013-02-25 21:34:39 »

Now, what about XBox720?
Its possible that with the XBox720 your machine has to be "always online" AND preowned/second hand games will be blocked. So maybe XBox720 will die horribly Cheesy
Not likely though :|
It won't kill it if pre-owned games are blocked at all, just like it hasn't killed Steam. They'll just be making games a lot cheaper and selling most of them digitally.

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Offline Cero
« Reply #63 - Posted 2013-02-25 21:37:40 »

They'll just be making games a lot cheaper
Not going to happen.
If anything games will be more expensive and/or there will be more special features for additional cost, like that call of duty elite crap.

and selling most of them digitally.
The market isn't ready for digital only. And also Xbox720 will have a bluray drive.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #64 - Posted 2013-02-25 22:17:08 »

Not going to happen.
If anything games will be more expensive and/or there will be more special features for additional cost, like that call of duty elite crap.

I think it's already happening. For example their PS+ service is so popular nowadays that I could imagine them taking that model to the next level. They certainly seem to be putting all the technology in place for that kind of thing too. And then there's the self-publishing that they're planning to do.
You'll pay top prices for being in front of the line for new games and you'll be nickel-and-dimed for popular online-heavy competitive games, but everything else is getting cheaper.

I'm a bit undecided if that's a good thing though atm.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #65 - Posted 2013-02-25 22:22:12 »

It won't kill it if pre-owned games are blocked at all, just like it hasn't killed Steam.

But the 2nd hand thing is about physical media.
2nd hand digital downloads never existed in MS' and Sony's ecosystems anyway so that's a bit of a moot point.

Offline Cero
« Reply #66 - Posted 2013-02-25 23:01:58 »

I think it's already happening. For example their PS+ service is so popular nowadays that I could imagine them taking that model to the next level. They certainly seem to be putting all the technology in place for that kind of thing too.
Yeah but its a slow process. You cannot manually cut the rope and stop using physical media.
It has to be a naturally occurring process that the sales of physical media decline and digital really raise. Which basically means GameStop is going broke.
We are still a long way off. GameStop is doing very good and even people like me would can technological spoken "look beyond the physical, still do want a physical copy to put in a shelf.

Offline deepthought
« Reply #67 - Posted 2013-02-26 02:51:02 »

If java does end up on the ps4 Sony will just take it away. Just like "other OS" on the ps3.

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Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2013-02-26 07:06:50 »

I would imagine it would be possible to use Java on PS4, provided you bought a dev-kit.  However it sounds like these are still going to be moderately expensive as they have 8GB of DDR5, which must add several £100 to a base gaming PC price.  Then they are charging something for the dev kit software.  For reference PS3 dev-kits started at about $20,000, was slashed to $10,000 and then again eventually to $2000.
(http://gamasutra.com/view/news/187093/QA_What_does_Sonys_most_open_console_promise_mean.php#.USxZgKXaZhA)

I notice they mention Playstation Mobile there, so I had a look. £65 Publisher fee and no special hardware required allows development for the PS framework on android phones and also on the Playstation Vita.  The latter is mildly interesting, but they haven't exactly been flying off the shelves.  Maybe that's why the cost of entry is so low; Sony are hoping that an influx of indie offerings will increase interest.  While it's difficult to get excited about it, it does shed some light on the potential commercial model that could be applied to PS4 should Sony decide to go that way. (https://psm.playstation.net/portal/en/index.html#register)

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Offline concerto49

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« Reply #69 - Posted 2013-02-26 08:31:18 »

If java does end up on the ps4 Sony will just take it away. Just like "other OS" on the ps3.

Not if it's officially included in the Sony SDK. Who knows.

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Online princec

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« Reply #70 - Posted 2013-02-26 09:38:08 »

I think a few of you have missed the point I was making about Java here... it doesn't have to be blessed by Sony or even Oracle: you can just use OpenJDK and by blessed good fortune there's already a shit-hot Hotspot VM that runs natively on the PS4's x86-64 architecture. Granted it will be "headless" but that's where LWJGL and JogAmp would come in.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #71 - Posted 2013-02-26 11:08:40 »

@nsigma: I think you're still misunderstanding me.  I'm not really commenting on GPL at all. ...  when I've never seen any official documentation to back it up.

I'm not misunderstanding you.  I'm questioning why a legally binding license agreement is not sufficient "official documentation" for you?  I'd rather trust that than almost anything else - it may not be 100% guaranteed, but you'd get a lot of help in any defence!  Wink

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Online princec

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« Reply #72 - Posted 2013-02-26 11:21:31 »

IANAL but I'm pretty certain that GPLv2+Classpath pretty much means OpenJDK is going to run anywhere you feel like it if you can make it work provided you adhere to the terms and those terms and those terms are entirely beneficial for everybody.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #73 - Posted 2013-02-26 20:56:17 »

I think a few of you have missed the point I was making about Java here... it doesn't have to be blessed by Sony or even Oracle: you can just use OpenJDK and by blessed good fortune there's already a shit-hot Hotspot VM that runs natively on the PS4's x86-64 architecture. Granted it will be "headless" but that's where LWJGL and JogAmp would come in.
Yes but you should read that, there is still a problem of patent grant...

Online princec

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« Reply #74 - Posted 2013-02-26 21:10:46 »

Patents are largely irrelevant for the likes of me really. I've been hacking Sun's JRE all over the place for 10 years right in front of everyone's faces and they've either encouraged it or just ignored it.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #75 - Posted 2013-02-27 00:26:57 »

Yes but you should read that, there is still a problem of patent grant...

Not with OpenJDK!  You're talking about a different patent grant here.  Perhaps you should read the paragraph above the link Sven uses in bug 682.

Quote
Section 7 of GPLv2 means that Oracle agrees not to use patents to prevent royalty-free distribution of the Java software which they distribute under GPLv2. OpenJDK is distributed under GPLv2 plus the "Classpath exception".

By using IcedTea or OpenJDK, Google would have a patent grant from Oracle because Oracle distributed OpenJDK under GPLv2. Thus, the patent grant of the Java Language Specification would not be used, so the limits to that promise (no subsetting, no incompatible changes) would not apply. [1]

Just a short amount of research turns up lots of information about the implicit patent grants in GPLv2, including legal assessment.  You can make your own judgement about it.

The post you link to where Sven states that -

Quote
IMHO it would be very helpful if Oracle finally could turn around and give a patent grant to all products based on OpenJDK including mobile/embedded. AFAIK, the latter is excluded in their binary license terms.

- doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  OpenJDK isn't distributed under the binary license terms, and GPL does not allow that kind of restriction.

[1] http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Oracle_v._Google_(2010,_USA)

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Offline Cero
« Reply #76 - Posted 2013-03-02 17:35:48 »

Keeping the thread aaaaliive... Java@PS4 !

Maybe we should all call and spam Sony, Oracle and the JDK Community about this.
I mean a google search on "Java PS4" or "OpenJDK PS4" brings up NOTHING, except this thread and Cas' tweet =P

Everyone involved should at least know about the possibility.
If Markus still uses Java to some degree, maybe he could help =0

Offline erikd

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« Reply #77 - Posted 2013-03-02 20:07:21 »

It's unfortunate that Oracle doesn't have a Chief Gaming Officer anymore, seeing java on PlayStation now makes more sense than ever.
I'm sure ChrisM and co would have been all over it.

Offline deepthought
« Reply #78 - Posted 2013-03-02 20:41:58 »

Cas,

Will the PS4 be able to boot from CD?
From what I've read online, the ps4 just has a more powerful version of the APU in my laptop.
If it can boot from disc, we can just deploy java games on a live linux disc with no porting.

jocks rule the highschools. GEEKS RULE THE WORLD MWAHAHAHA!!
captain failure test game
Online princec

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« Reply #79 - Posted 2013-03-02 20:44:27 »

No idea. And probably not.

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #80 - Posted 2013-03-02 20:51:53 »

There is precisely zero chance the PS4 will boot anything but a signed boot chain that starts up a hypervisor from which just maybe you can run another OS as long as it pleases Sony to allow you to do so.
Offline Cero
« Reply #81 - Posted 2013-03-02 21:16:24 »

There is precisely zero chance the PS4 will boot anything but a signed boot chain that starts up a hypervisor from which just maybe you can run another OS as long as it pleases Sony to allow you to do so.

The security system of the PS3 was really solid, well at least for a while and then after that whole thing it was fixed and now its very good again.
Do not expect the Xbox 720 or PS4 to be hackable... Economically, piracy was not an issue on the Xbox360 and PS3 whatsoever, even if it was somewhat somehow a little possible.

So obviously no unlicensed stuff D:

Offline erikd

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« Reply #82 - Posted 2013-03-02 22:16:28 »

There's very little point to creating unlicensed stuff for a console besides hobby hackery. PC is much better for that.

The whole point of releasing something for PS4 is to use Sony's ecosystem to drive your sales, imho.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #83 - Posted 2013-03-02 22:24:28 »

As an aside, I heard this PlayStation Mobile SDK is really quite good and lets you create games for PlayStation Vita (and PS Mobile android devices).
There has been talks that something like that is also coming for PS4.

The catch is that PlayStation Mobile is C#.

So I imagine java on PS4 would at best be possible on a real devkit.

Offline Cero
« Reply #84 - Posted 2013-03-02 22:59:20 »

It does seem that PS Vita meaning PS Mobile and Wii U especially support self publishing.
Wii U works with Unity is what I have heard
But the Wii U is a PowerPC and Vita is ARM...

It probably fell a little under the radar because both of there consoles don't sell well

Offline erikd

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« Reply #85 - Posted 2013-03-03 00:16:59 »

There are some encouraging stories about indie games on Vita though, for example http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-28-retro-city-rampage-sells-best-on-vita-not-so-well-on-xbla

Offline gouessej
« Reply #86 - Posted 2013-03-13 22:20:36 »

The GPL clearly allows such uses, which covers the code copyright and (pretty much) any patent issues.  You might not be able to use the TCK, or call it Java (and perhaps not OpenJDK either looking at the trademark notice).  Other than that, what other limitations are you worried about?
You should read that, you'll see what I mean. It's not as simple as you may think.

Offline nsigma
« Reply #87 - Posted 2013-03-14 00:02:49 »

The GPL clearly allows such uses, which covers the code copyright and (pretty much) any patent issues.  You might not be able to use the TCK, or call it Java (and perhaps not OpenJDK either looking at the trademark notice).  Other than that, what other limitations are you worried about?
You should read that, you'll see what I mean. It's not as simple as you may think.

That doesn't offer anything really beyond what I commented on above on Feb 27th!  It's not that I think it's simple, it's that I don't agree with the conclusion and find the argument confused.  In particular there is a conflation of the different patent grants and licences.  The Oracle binary licenses are irrelevant to the argument, as is the patent grant in the Java Language Spec (a point made in one of the documents linked to), which is meant to cover 3rd-party TCK compliant implementations not OpenJDK derivatives.  The question comes down to whether the GPL, on its own, provides the necessary rights.

For contrary positions you could try searching, for example, on the OpenJDK mailing list (has Sven emailed these arguments there?).  This message is interesting - http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2010-January/001451.html, and includes a link to a legal assessment of the patent grant in GPLv2.

As I said before, it's for someone to make their own mind up about (with legal advice if necessary), but I'd be interested in reading anything that has a coherent legal argument against the GPL's patent grant.  I'm not saying a clarified position from Oracle wouldn't be a good thing, but it doesn't seem to be stopping people doing interesting things with the OpenJDK source code.  Grin

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Online princec

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« Reply #88 - Posted 2013-03-14 10:47:44 »

Indeed, Oracle's binaries may well be covered but any binaries you create by compiling the GPLv2'd source code are explicitly your right to distribute, provided you also provide the source code to anyone who asks, and a copy of the GPLv2 license along with the binaries. It couldn't really get much more simple than that.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #89 - Posted 2013-03-14 11:00:03 »

To spell out the potential problem I've been attempting to describe:

N files with:
1  
2  
<GPL notice here>
...


At least one file with:
1  
2  
<insert some notice incompatiable with GPL here>
...


If you compile and link the above, then cannot distribute the result as you cannot comply with either license.  Does this situation exist...no idea...but you're legal screwed if you don't find out and it is the case.
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