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  Java on PS4!  (Read 31282 times)
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Offline kappa
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« Reply #30 - Posted 2013-02-23 00:31:49 »

Its definitely in Oracles interest to let Sony have access/licence to Java as Sony's cloud stuff (Gaikai, etc) will require a lot of servers, something I'm sure Oracle will be more than happy to provide. However Sony are already heavily invested in C# (see Playstation Mobile) so not sure what extra benefit they'd get from Java.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #31 - Posted 2013-02-24 20:40:16 »

Busy few days - just catching up on this thread.  Smiley

Some Oracle employees willingly keep unclear about the legal limitation in the use of OpenJDK on embedded devices. ...  If Oracle clearly allowed such uses, we would simply use OpenJDK even under Android.

The GPL clearly allows such uses, which covers the code copyright and (pretty much) any patent issues.  You might not be able to use the TCK, or call it Java (and perhaps not OpenJDK either looking at the trademark notice).  Other than that, what other limitations are you worried about?

What this means for us is: we are free to use OpenJDK in a private any context.

There, corrected that for you!  Wink

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #32 - Posted 2013-02-24 21:19:13 »

Actually I'd say that's uncorrected.  In a private context both GPL and other Oracle legal docs support anything goes.  GPL taint applies to any distribution...other Oracle docs are...unclear and explicitly state to contact them (I haven't reviewed any of this in the past couple of years and would love to hear...and be pointed to supported documentation that states otherwise).
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Offline Cero
« Reply #33 - Posted 2013-02-24 23:17:15 »

So if it would be technically possible and legally possible...
What would it cost to publish a game on PSN ?
From what I understand these license fees to be able to publish a game are (current gen) really high, unlike android & ios. But if PS4 wants to be more open - what would be a realistic figure ?

If you could actually publish games on PS4 as a poor indie dev, just by using lwjgl / libgdx and stuff, would be literally the best thing since sliced bread.

Offline nsigma
« Reply #34 - Posted 2013-02-24 23:26:10 »

Actually I'd say that's uncorrected.  In a private context both GPL and other Oracle legal docs support anything goes.  GPL taint applies to any distribution.

I'm not talking about Oracle docs, I'm talking about the GPL itself.  The GPL license allows you to use it in any context, as long as you comply with its terms - ie. releasing source modifications to OpenJDK itself, etc.  The linking exception ensures you can use it in an open-source or commercial context without releasing other code.  I'd like to see anything that refutes that.  Oracle can't assert field-of-use requirements on the code, even if they wanted to, unless they went for the nuclear option of destroying the GPL!  Wink 

And don't use weasel words like "taint", particularly in this context, and with the linking exception.  Without it we might not be able to do all this!  Tongue

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Offline princec

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2013-02-24 23:35:35 »

Riddle me this then - why did Google not use OpenJDK as the basis for the Android JVM?

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2013-02-24 23:38:05 »

OpenJDK didn't exist at the time.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #37 - Posted 2013-02-24 23:42:20 »

Riddle me this then - why did Google not use OpenJDK as the basis for the Android JVM.

I've said the same thing on here multiple times!  Android development did predate OpenJDK mind you, and I guess they also have more control (eg. Honeycomb source code not being released).

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Offline princec

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« Reply #38 - Posted 2013-02-25 00:25:21 »

Ah, riddle solved then.

Cas Smiley

Offline deepthought
« Reply #39 - Posted 2013-02-25 04:23:16 »

Would openjdk be better?
Also, if so, how to deploy apps using it through the app store?
Not many people are going to use openjdk apps if they have to root first.

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Offline Cero
« Reply #40 - Posted 2013-02-25 04:50:17 »

app store, rooting ?  We are talking about the PS4 here

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #41 - Posted 2013-02-25 05:13:17 »

Conversation drifted to Android I'm afraid.  As for PS4, I'm sure Sony will promise the moon and the sun and the stars and deliver us a console locked down tighter than Superman's bunghole.
Offline Cero
« Reply #42 - Posted 2013-02-25 05:39:41 »

Conversation drifted to Android I'm afraid.
I was just confused - I mean the special thing here is x86 - ARM VM is a different story altogether

I'm sure Sony will promise the moon and the sun and the stars and deliver us a console locked down tighter than Superman's bunghole.
Sony is certainly not known for being pro-indie and open... lets hope D:

Offline Cero
« Reply #43 - Posted 2013-02-25 05:54:56 »

We believe in smaller developers. They are very creative and they go out of the norm to do something really amazing. So we really want to make it easier for them to come to our platform and publish. And we know there are many things we can do, in talking with these guys and asking what they want us to do. And one effort we’ve been doing in that context is the PS Mobile platform. That doesn’t even require the purchase of a dev kit. It’s totally software driven, and they can develop games… on PC, for example. And once you decide to publish it, you want to test it on the final hardware, but you don’t have to acquire a pricey dev kit.

The approach to PS4 we’re internally working on is, I hope to see somewhere in-between the current model that we have on PS3 and the PS Mobile totally software-driven model. We could continue and go and expand the PS Mobile approach, but the beauty of developing games on console is we allow the developers to go really deep into the hardware, and to unlock the potential. And so in order for us to do that, the developer has to have the dev kit to work on. So at least initially, we have to provide the dev kit to make games on PS4.


Shuhei Yoshida - SCE

Offline HeroesGraveDev

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« Reply #44 - Posted 2013-02-25 06:12:58 »

We believe in smaller developers. They are very creative and they go out of the norm to do something really amazing. So we really want to make it easier for them to come to our platform and publish. And we know there are many things we can do, in talking with these guys and asking what they want us to do. And one effort we’ve been doing in that context is the PS Mobile platform. That doesn’t even require the purchase of a dev kit. It’s totally software driven, and they can develop games… on PC, for example. And once you decide to publish it, you want to test it on the final hardware, but you don’t have to acquire a pricey dev kit.

The approach to PS4 we’re internally working on is, I hope to see somewhere in-between the current model that we have on PS3 and the PS Mobile totally software-driven model. We could continue and go and expand the PS Mobile approach, but the beauty of developing games on console is we allow the developers to go really deep into the hardware, and to unlock the potential. And so in order for us to do that, the developer has to have the dev kit to work on. So at least initially, we have to provide the dev kit to make games on PS4.


Shuhei Yoshida - SCE

What? Parts of that make no sense to me.

So they don't want us to have to get an expensive dev kit, but to get games on the PS4 we need a dev kit. Huh

(Why not make it like the Ouya where the console IS the dev kit?)

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #45 - Posted 2013-02-25 06:30:42 »

Maybe they're saying "we have to provide the dev kit for free or at least cheap".  But Sony's infamous for talking out of both sides of its mouth, so who knows.

Still, bad as Sony's dev kit offerings are rumored to be, they're a lot more than the nothingburger of Ouya's "dev kit" which appears to amount to "hey the hardware's unlocked, go use the emulator and just treat this console like a big misshapen phone".

I do see no legitimate reason that a post-ship dev kit should cost so much however.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #46 - Posted 2013-02-25 08:25:01 »

Actually I'd say that's uncorrected.  In a private context both GPL and other Oracle legal docs support anything goes.  GPL taint applies to any distribution.
I'm not talking about Oracle docs, I'm talking about the GPL itself.  The GPL license allows you....
And my point is that (to my knowledge which is perhaps dated) GPL isn't the only license involved.  The docs used to say "check the top of each file for which license applies".  It is still true that all devs must sign a contributors agreement which assigns all ownership to Oracle so they are the sole owner of all copyrights and patents.  I might be misremembering, but isn't it also using V2?  And doesn't V2 not have verbage about patents?

Quote
And don't use weasel words like "taint"...
Well if "taint" burns your ears, change it to "viral".
Offline nsigma
« Reply #47 - Posted 2013-02-25 09:27:37 »

And my point is that (to my knowledge which is perhaps dated) GPL isn't the only license involved.  The docs used to say "check the top of each file for which license applies".

OpenJDK is GPL as a whole.  There may be individual files with other license terms, but they can only have more permissive licenses, not less.  Therefore, it is the GPL license that counts.

It is still true that all devs must sign a contributors agreement which assigns all ownership to Oracle so they are the sole owner of all copyrights and patents.  I might be misremembering, but isn't it also using V2?  And doesn't V2 not have verbage about patents?

GPLv2 has implicit patent grants.  V3 made this much more explicit, and added things around third-party patent agreements.  I'm not asserting that Oracle couldn't try and assert patents (IANAL, blah, blah) but their attempt to assert patents on non-OpenJDK-derived code (Android) didn't go so well!  Wink  Trying to assert patents on code they've (well Sun) released under a license widely regarded to give you rights to use those patents is, I would have thought, even less likely to work out well. 

Well if "taint" burns your ears, change it to "viral".

Yeah, I know what you're getting at, no need to be an ass about it!  Tongue  Besides the OT reason that I don't consider the GPL anti-commercial or any more "viral" than many paid-for licenses (it's all cost / benefit), the fact is that OpenJDK is GPL with Classpath Exception, and therefore isn't "viral" or "tainted" in the way you mean!

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #48 - Posted 2013-02-25 11:16:47 »

Its already confirmed that C# (source & mirror) and DirectX 11 will be on PS4. However not seen any concrete information yet that OpenGL or OpenGL ES will be on PS4.

That DirectX thing looks like an in-house developed layer made by Paradox on top of LibGCM, not something that is part of the PS4 SDK.
OpenGL on the other hand was part of the standard PS3 toolset (also built on top of LibGCM), so it seems very likely that OpenGL will be on PS4 too.

Offline princec

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« Reply #49 - Posted 2013-02-25 12:24:31 »

I am almost certain that PS4 uses OpenGL. I'll find out and report back about Java and OpenGL... I have "contacts"...

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #50 - Posted 2013-02-25 14:15:17 »

@nsigma: I think you're still misunderstanding me.  I'm not really commenting on GPL at all. (and again, I don't "know" that if I type hg clone ....; make;  ... that the resulting binaries are, without a doubt, GPLed).  Remember that we're not at all concerned about "legal" in the criminal sense.  Any potential issues would be in civil court (and virtually insured to be in CA).  And what's the old saying?  "You're fate is determined by 12 people too stupid to get out of jury duty".  I think there are numerous examples of civil cases were the verdict more or less ignores legal merit.  I certainly wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life signing checks to Oracle because I pissed them off.  Likely? Probably not...but why tempt fate.  I would personally never muck around on any project unless there's absolutely zero grey area legally.  And that would require clarification from Oracle about their position.

Having said that:  My guess is that you are correct and the result is GPL'd (version 2 only) + exception and it certainly seems, from ongoing projects, that they want to encourage embedding java at least on the desktop & servers.  But I'd find it irresponsible to to present my guess as fact when I've never seen any official documentation to back it up.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #51 - Posted 2013-02-25 15:28:32 »

That DirectX thing looks like an in-house developed layer made by Paradox on top of LibGCM, not something that is part of the PS4 SDK.
OpenGL on the other hand was part of the standard PS3 toolset (also built on top of LibGCM), so it seems very likely that OpenGL will be on PS4 too.
Nice, LibGCM seems like a pretty cool library, found a nice read here and here.

The OpenGL support on PS3 is just a layer on top of LibGCM, however rumour has it that the PS4 has native OpenGL support. It'd be interesting to know which type of OpenGL (if any) is on PS4, whether its OpenGL ES2 or standard desktop OpenGL (like OpenGL 4.2). Its unlikely that OpenGL ES 2 will cut it for next-gen as there is heavy emphasis of use of things like compute shaders, geometry shaders, etc.
Offline erikd

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« Reply #52 - Posted 2013-02-25 17:03:42 »

Apparently there will also some sort of indie-friendly self-publishing program. Could be interesting.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #53 - Posted 2013-02-25 17:26:19 »

So they don't want us to have to get an expensive dev kit, but to get games on the PS4 we need a dev kit. Huh

The way I understand it is that you will be able to create games on your PC for PS4, similar to what you can do with PS Mobile.
But if you want to really get down and dirty and low-level, you will need the devkit.

Offline Cero
« Reply #54 - Posted 2013-02-25 18:24:44 »

So they don't want us to have to get an expensive dev kit, but to get games on the PS4 we need a dev kit. ???

The way I understand it is that you will be able to create games on your PC for PS4, similar to what you can do with PS Mobile.
But if you want to really get down and dirty and low-level, you will need the devkit.
That wouldn't be too bad considering the power of the PS4, only really big 3D projects will need the full-power anyway.

I'll find out and report back about Java and OpenGL... I have "contacts"...
You do that :D

Offline erikd

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« Reply #55 - Posted 2013-02-25 20:04:28 »

I could imagine you need a devkit to get Java+LWJGL&friends up and running there though

Offline princec

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« Reply #56 - Posted 2013-02-25 20:44:39 »

You didn't hear this from me and you don't know. It's Linux, with OpenGL4.3. <edit>OpenAL is available.

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd
« Reply #57 - Posted 2013-02-25 20:53:48 »

You didn't hear this from me and you don't know. It's Linux, with OpenGL4.3. <edit>OpenAL is available.

Cas Smiley
What?!  Shocked Shocked Shocked

Myomyomyo.
Offline erikd

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« Reply #58 - Posted 2013-02-25 22:06:28 »

Wow, that's interesting Smiley
Perhaps it could be a good idea to get some money together to buy a devkit then (i'd be willing to chip in if it could lead to something viable).

Is it the PS4 OS that's Linux, or are just the development tools Linux based? The Naughty Dog guys have gone on record saying how nice Linux is as a platform to do your development on (in the Uncharted days), but afaik the PS3 doesn't run on Linux, so I always sort of assumed that they were just talking about the development tools.

No idea why I'm asking you because you obviously didn't say anything about the subject whatsoever

Offline sugarrushx6

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« Reply #59 - Posted 2013-02-25 22:09:48 »

 Shocked
That would be cool if Java games got onto the PS4
Now, what about XBox720?

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