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  Java on PS4!  (Read 34827 times)
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Offline princec

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« Posted 2013-02-21 11:20:31 »

There, that got your attention.

Now all the rumours and news can go under this thread.

Starting with the obvious: it's x86 and Nvidia powered which means there's dead cert that a headless OpenJDK port is possible, if not an actual licensed Oracle port, and LWJGL will be relatively easy to get working on it.

Cas Smiley

Offline jonjava
« Reply #1 - Posted 2013-02-21 11:26:13 »

That would be... really cool.

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2013-02-21 11:42:55 »

Its already confirmed that C# (source & mirror) and DirectX 11 will be on PS4. However not seen any concrete information yet that OpenGL or OpenGL ES will be on PS4.

Technically OpenJDK looks very possible to port onto PS4, probably need to rewrite the OS specific bits though unless the PS4 OS is Linux or Windows NT Kernel (considering the DirectX).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Gaikai tech (was written in Java on some clients and was Java serverside) will be a big part of PS4, so for all we know they might already have some sort of JVM for it, in addition to the Blu-Ray JVM (Interestingly the Xbox Next will also have a Blu-Ray drive, so also a JVM?).

Speaking of the Xbox Next, rumour has it that it'll use a modified version of Windows 8 and also be x86 based, so OpenJDK on there also shouldn't be impossible, although you'll probably have to have a binding to DirectX for it.
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Offline nsigma
« Reply #3 - Posted 2013-02-21 11:52:38 »

it's x86 and Nvidia powered

You mean AMD?!

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #4 - Posted 2013-02-21 11:53:06 »

Related info:  "Profile-base" HotSpot builds are currently under testing. (SEE: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/161).
Offline princec

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2013-02-21 12:06:28 »

Er probably, slip o the finger.

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2013-02-21 12:15:13 »

Related info:  "Profile-base" HotSpot builds are currently under testing. (SEE: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/161).
Can't help but notice they've kinda missed the point with profiles there. Why they didn't just specify the availability of any set of packages is beyond me. Not hard.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #7 - Posted 2013-02-21 12:51:00 »

I'm pretty sure that those are just examples and there's a tool which will build profiles BUT it's pretty unclear how much effort they are going to put into this or how it will interact with jigsaw & modularization.
Offline princec

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2013-02-21 13:24:15 »

It seems so largely pointless :/ I literally hacked a tool together to do this for me in a matter of minutes. You put in an rt.jar and the output of a -verbose:class run of your app and it spits out a new, smaller rt.jar, but avoids many of the pitfalls by doing the class analysis at a package level rather than individual classes. So, reference SQLException, and you get the entire of java.sql.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #9 - Posted 2013-02-21 13:35:48 »

This is going a step farther...you then build the JVM and it only includes support for the profile in question.
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Offline cheatsguy

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2013-02-21 14:15:51 »

It seems like consoles are starting to become computers with controllers (i know they technically are, but there's a large number of differences too)

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Offline Cero
« Reply #11 - Posted 2013-02-21 15:56:29 »

Isn't the problem legal issues ?
Without Oracle having a deal with Sony, can you put an unlicensed jdk on PSN, legally ?

Offline nsigma
« Reply #12 - Posted 2013-02-21 16:15:00 »

Isn't the problem legal issues ?
Without Oracle having a deal with Sony, can you put an unlicensed jdk on PSN, legally ?

I don't see why Oracle would need a deal with Sony if their standard JDK distribution worked.  Not sure about ripping the Oracle build apart, but OpenJDK is GPL - you can pull it apart and put it on whatever the hell you want!  Wink

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Offline theagentd

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2013-02-21 18:45:17 »

Huh? What's my laptop doing looking like a Playstation? We've talked about this, laptop...  Angry

Myomyomyo.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #14 - Posted 2013-02-21 20:19:09 »

And here I thought we should be talking about DirectX.
Offline gene9

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2013-02-21 21:26:03 »

There, that got your attention.

Very cruel Cas.

The safe presumption is that the official SDK is completely C based and software teams can use any other language or toolset as long as it can access the C APIs and compiles to native code. In the past, C# programmers have had more success at writing to external C APIs and using embedded VMs. Recently, Oracle has started to show some interest in embedded VMs and supporting non PCs so hopefully this will improve. I would kill to see good games written in Java or better yet, Scala or Clojure. I'd even be happy to see Haskell games a reality.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #16 - Posted 2013-02-21 21:55:13 »

I don't see why Oracle would need a deal with Sony if their standard JDK distribution worked.  Not sure about ripping the Oracle build apart, but OpenJDK is GPL - you can pull it apart and put it on whatever the hell you want!  Wink
There seems to be a limitation on embedded devices, we talked a bit about that at FOSDEM 2013 in Brussels.

What sort of limitation?  Technical, then yes probably.  Not legally though - GPL code cannot have field of use restrictions.  Of course, you might not get away with calling it Java.   Wink

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Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #17 - Posted 2013-02-21 23:28:08 »

I'd even be happy to see Haskell games a reality.

Nikki and the Robots is in Haskell.  So it was a reality, but as the top of that page shows, not a success  Cry
Offline deepthought
« Reply #18 - Posted 2013-02-22 00:59:22 »

now i'm really drooling Grin

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Offline princec

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2013-02-22 10:35:05 »

So far as I can see, there are no actual limitations of use for OpenJDK beyond its obligations to GPLv2+Classpath Exception, which basically means, you can have it anywhere you want provided that if you go a-tweaking you make your source code available for all (which, were it me that was making it work on PS4, I would gladly do).

Cas Smiley

Offline concerto49

Junior Devvie





« Reply #20 - Posted 2013-02-22 10:36:26 »

And here I thought we should be talking about DirectX.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #21 - Posted 2013-02-22 11:58:23 »

I don't see why Oracle would need a deal with Sony if their standard JDK distribution worked.  Not sure about ripping the Oracle build apart, but OpenJDK is GPL - you can pull it apart and put it on whatever the hell you want!  Wink
There seems to be a limitation on embedded devices, we talked a bit about that at FOSDEM 2013 in Brussels.

What sort of limitation?  Technical, then yes probably.  Not legally though - GPL code cannot have field of use restrictions.  Of course, you might not get away with calling it Java.   Wink
Some Oracle employees willingly keep unclear about the legal limitation in the use of OpenJDK on embedded devices. You can do whatever you want in desktop environments. This dictinction is probably inheritated from "bad" commercial practices consisting in asking for money for each installed VM on mobile phones... I'm sorry, I would prefer being more precise. It is not a bad joke, that's why some of us (JogAmp) are still discussing about the opportunity of providing our own JRE. We need a Java-like royalty-free runtime environment that we can ship both in desktop and embedded (tablets, smartphones, consoles, PC sticks, GPS, TVs, ...) environments (it was mainly Sven's idea and I'm fed up with Android DVM). If Oracle clearly allowed such uses, we would simply use OpenJDK even under Android.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #22 - Posted 2013-02-22 12:07:00 »

Unless there's been some official clarification...I find all of the HotSpot legal issues unclear (including desktop).
Offline princec

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2013-02-22 13:41:47 »

I believe that the situation is mostly that the source is now free as a bird and there's nothing Oracle or anyone else can do to stop you compiling it and changing it and using it anywhere you damn well please. However the Java trademark and all its various associations have much more specific terms attached to them.

What this means for us is: we are free to use OpenJDK in a private context. However, we are probably not allowed to use the trademarked term "Java" anywhere at all (suits me just fine and indeed is unlikely to have any positive effect in any case). And it pretty much prevents Google from using OpenJDK too in Android, as they'll somewhere have to mention Java in their product datasheets and they're just simply not licensed to do so.

Cas Smiley

Offline Spasi
« Reply #24 - Posted 2013-02-22 15:18:22 »

According to this, Mojang is working on a PS4 title. I guess they're big enough to switch to a non-JVM dev environment, but it's a little glimpse of hope.
Offline princec

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Medals: 425
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« Reply #25 - Posted 2013-02-22 16:22:54 »

Mojang don't use Java any more - last I heard they've switched to Unity for 0x10c and the Android and iOS port is native code too I think.

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2013-02-22 16:26:26 »

And it pretty much prevents Google from using OpenJDK too in Android, as they'll somewhere have to mention Java in their product datasheets and they're just simply not licensed to do so.

If they used OpenJDK, they could simply use the OpenJDK name.  Not very catchy, but certainly allowed under the OpenJDK trademark agreement.  From there they could certainly mention Java as long as it wasn't creating brand confusion.  The other infringing angle would be trademark dilution, and I think Oracle's lawyers would have a hard time pushing an argument for trademark dilution, considering OpenJDK is their own Java codebase.

None of that applies of course since Android is going to be Dalvik+Harmony for pretty much forever.  It doesn't really matter either -- the Android name alone is strong enough to stand on its own.
Offline Cero
« Reply #27 - Posted 2013-02-22 16:58:18 »

Mojang don't use Java any more - last I heard they've switched to Unity for 0x10c and the Android and iOS port is native code too I think.
I wouldn't be surprised.

However, we are probably not allowed to use the trademarked term "Java" anywhere at all (suits me just fine and indeed is unlikely to have any positive effect in any case).
Yeah, you wouldn't want to anyway


obligations to GPLv2+Classpath Exception, which basically means, you can have it anywhere you want provided that if you go a-tweaking you make your source code available for all (which, were it me that was making it work on PS4, I would gladly do).
Most people will think that way, not a big deal.

Some Oracle employees willingly keep unclear about the legal limitation in the use of OpenJDK on embedded devices. You can do whatever you want in desktop environments. This dictinction is probably inheritated from "bad" commercial practices consisting in asking for money for each installed VM on mobile phones... I'm sorry, I would prefer being more precise. It is not a bad joke, that's why some of us (JogAmp) are still discussing about the opportunity of providing our own JRE. We need a Java-like royalty-free runtime environment that we can ship both in desktop and embedded (tablets, smartphones, consoles, PC sticks, GPS, TVs, ...) environments (it was mainly Sven's idea and I'm fed up with Android DVM). If Oracle clearly allowed such uses, we would simply use OpenJDK even under Android.
I think Cas should try it, and we all watch if he gets sued :D

Offline deepthought
« Reply #28 - Posted 2013-02-22 20:12:49 »

I think Cas should try it, and we all watch if he gets sued Cheesy

I doubt it. Java on the PS4 will be good for Oracle, and probably even good for Sony.

jocks rule the highschools. GEEKS RULE THE WORLD MWAHAHAHA!!
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Offline concerto49

Junior Devvie





« Reply #29 - Posted 2013-02-22 22:48:27 »

I think Cas should try it, and we all watch if he gets sued Cheesy

I doubt it. Java on the PS4 will be good for Oracle, and probably even good for Sony.

Good for Oracle, sure, but not so for Sony.

Sony would already have their own custom libraries, frameworks and whatever to support game development. They don't want to double the work and create 1 for Java as well. Then there will be other folks asking for other languages and it goes on.

I don't see Oracle heavily invested in gaming either. Their sole purpose of Java is more aimed at business applications that they use.

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