Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (78)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (426)
Games in Android Showcase (89)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (466)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  ignore  |  Print  
  JDK: upcoming features  (Read 6338 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 200



« Reply #30 - Posted 2013-03-20 17:18:50 »

The professional/hobby distinction pretty much nails it: Unity Technologies is a company with a salable product, marketing, full-time development, and tens of mullions in venture capital, and jME really is a hobby project worked on by volunteers.  Even with all the VC money behind them, I seriously doubt they're profitable yet, though I suspect (along with everyone else) that mobile games are going to be their cash cow if and when they do get into the black.

I don't know that "jMonkeyEngine" makes a very marketable name, though "Ardor3D" certainly does ... but the Ardor folks are even less interested in The Big Time.
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #31 - Posted 2013-03-20 21:25:21 »

The professional/hobby distinction pretty much nails it: Unity Technologies is a company with a salable product, marketing, full-time development, and tens of mullions in venture capital, and jME really is a hobby project worked on by volunteers.

Why are the more serious efforts choosing C++ and .NET rather than Java? Part of it is runtime issues, the way Mono lets you embed .NET in a platform neutral C++ app, while Java doesn't do that as well.

C++/.NET have tons of hobby projects on the level of jME and Ardor3D as well as the big guns like Unity and Unreal.
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 200



« Reply #32 - Posted 2013-03-20 23:36:47 »

Part of it is that there's no java port to the iPhone whereas Mono works.  So yes, there's reasons for big money to chase .NET in that case over Java, but the biggest factor here by far is still the capital investment.  You don't have a company of over >200 people without paying them.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #33 - Posted 2013-03-21 05:15:44 »

Part of it is that there's no java port to the iPhone whereas Mono works.  So yes, there's reasons for big money to chase .NET in that case over Java, but the biggest factor here by far is still the capital investment.  You don't have a company of over >200 people without paying them.

Obviously, lots of money is needed to pay 200+ salaried employees like Unity Technologies has. But what is preventing that kind of money from reaching a Java based game engine company? Or why are the people who are able to obtain that type of money not choosing Java?
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #34 - Posted 2013-03-21 09:33:21 »

Well, it has been said: the JVM cannot be retargeted everywhere. That's why. You can't put your money behind restrictive tech that doesn't work in the exact places you need it.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #35 - Posted 2013-03-21 12:36:48 »

I don't know that "jMonkeyEngine" makes a very marketable name, though "Ardor3D" certainly does ... but the Ardor folks are even less interested in The Big Time.
Do you really know Ardor3D folks?

Offline nsigma
« Reply #36 - Posted 2013-03-21 16:24:41 »

Well, it has been said: the JVM cannot be retargeted everywhere. That's why. You can't put your money behind restrictive tech that doesn't work in the exact places you need it.

How do you justify that statement (if I'm reading it right)?  Isn't currently usable in certain key areas I'd agree with, but cannot (ever) be re-targeted to them - on what basis?

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #37 - Posted 2013-03-21 16:32:55 »

I think you read it wrong; there's no time period qualifier in my statement. Except the implicit one, "right now", and a subtly implied one, "for the foreseeable future".

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #38 - Posted 2013-03-21 17:19:05 »

I think you read it wrong; there's no time period qualifier in my statement. Except the implicit one, "right now", and a subtly implied one, "for the foreseeable future".

OK.  Was reading your comment as a reply to gene9's comment, specifically bit about large scale capital investment.

You can't put your money behind restrictive tech that doesn't work in the exact places you need it.

Except someone did exactly that with the Mono project, and it's vaguely plausible someone could do that with the JVM.  I'm not saying it would necessarily make commercial sense - did Mono at the time?  Grin

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #39 - Posted 2013-03-21 18:51:08 »

I didn't mean developers of alternative Java VM implementations, I meant people developing software on top of VMs, eg. me. I could be considered quite an idiot for jumping on the Java bandwagon to make games precisely because the places where most of the money to be made are simply no-go areas for Java (consoles and phones). There are "ways" of course but they are crappy.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2013-03-22 11:35:51 »

http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-consoles-this-year/

Hm.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #41 - Posted 2013-03-22 11:47:04 »

meant people developing software on top of VMs, eg. me.

Of course, but funnily enough, unless you've been keeping things from us, I wasn't including you as a large-scale, venture-capital backed business!  Cheesy  Also, I'm not talking about games developers, but game engine / ecosystem developers.  That's what gene9's comment was talking about, and then I just don't think it's as simple as the "the JVM cannot be retargeted everywhere".

I didn't mean developers of alternative Java VM implementations ... There are "ways" of course but they are crappy.

Except that Unity chose Mono, which is an alternative and under-performing .net VM.   Wink

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2013-03-22 11:54:59 »

We Java types have always put up with lower performance in order to gain in other areas such as ease of development and ease of deployment. There was a time not long ago when Java was quite a bit slower. Mono will slowly close the gap. Well, there isn't even a gap, because Java just isn't available everywhere. It's basically only available on Windows, Mac OS, and Linux desktop machines, and that's why it's not gone anywhere useful since.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #43 - Posted 2013-03-22 13:31:09 »

There was a time not long ago when Java was quite a bit slower. Mono will slowly close the gap.

Maybe!  Be interesting to compare the levels of investment going into either platform.  It looks like Mono is getting performance improvements by use of LLVM as a backend, which may also be the same thing that allows alternative JVM's to close the gap.

Well, there isn't even a gap, because Java just isn't available everywhere. It's basically only available on Windows, Mac OS, and Linux desktop machines, and that's why it's not gone anywhere useful since.

Apples and oranges.  It's not like the "official" .net runtime is available everywhere either.  Where's Android in your list too?  Android Mono is hardly WORA.  The primary benefit seems to be pushed as code reuse, which is already possible with a significant chunk of Java code.

Anyway, that's digressed a bit from the point I was disagreeing with you about above.  I think we're mostly on the same page around state of the client-side (Oracle / OpenJDK) VM.  Smiley


Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Sindisil

Senior Newbie


Medals: 2



« Reply #44 - Posted 2013-03-22 15:12:56 »


Except that Unity chose Mono, which is an alternative and under-performing .net VM.   Wink


Like it or not, the Mono VM runs infinitely faster on platforms to which no Java VM is available.

As much as I like Java and the Java ecosystem, if any of the widely portable Mono based systems (Unity, or, preferably, MonoGame) fully supported development on Linux, I'd almost certainly already have switched.

I'd be just as happy if inexpensive, non-kludgy methods existed to get decent Java access to all the applicable devices, of course. Dalvic on Android meets that threshold right now, but just *barely*, and the lack of direct Java 7 support is beginning to rankle.
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #45 - Posted 2013-03-22 17:10:16 »

Like it or not, the Mono VM runs infinitely faster on platforms to which no Java VM is available.

The whole advantage of Mono isn't speed, it actually runs slower than Microsoft's official CLR VM and the Java VM, it's portability. The Mono runtime can be embedded in any C/C++ project for any platform and run C# code. Java/Scala do not have a fleshed out option like that and are limited to platforms with full JREs (Win/Mac/Linux). Someone *could* write an embeddable Java/Scala compiler/runtime like the Mono guys did for C#, but that's non-trivial and no one has done that. Heck, the Mono guys could make their runtime platform neutral and support Java/Scala source code, but the people behind that project are too militantly pro-Microsoft to do something like that.

As much as I like Java and the Java ecosystem, if any of the widely portable Mono based systems (Unity, or, preferably, MonoGame) fully supported development on Linux, I'd almost certainly already have switched.

If you are ok with being limited to Win/Mac/Linux and writing your own middleware on top of OpenGL, Java/Scala are perfect. If you want more fleshed out middleware options and a larger community or a better path to iOS and consoles, C++/C# is a better bet. Personally, I'm cheering for Java/Scala to improve their prospects.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #46 - Posted 2013-03-22 17:11:31 »

Except that Unity chose Mono, which is an alternative and under-performing .net VM.   Wink

Like it or not, the Mono VM runs infinitely faster on platforms to which no Java VM is available.

OMG ... really?  Shocked

I meant in comparison to Microsoft's VM, not Java.

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #47 - Posted 2013-03-22 17:13:38 »

If I wasn't pursuing some non programming passions (medical field related), I would try to build an embeddable Scala compiler/runtime to compete with Mono. There is a major unfulfilled demand for that right now.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #48 - Posted 2013-03-22 17:26:34 »

There is already an entirely decent embedded Hotspot Java 7 SDK which runs proper fast.

I think Sindisil's point back there was it doesn't matter how theoretically faster a JVM is versus Mono on a platform which doesn't support Java. Mono can be put anywhere, which indeed, it has been.

Cas Smiley

Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #49 - Posted 2013-03-22 17:52:14 »

There is already an entirely decent embedded Hotspot Java 7 SDK which runs proper fast.

Can I use this to run on iOS or a game console? Any links?
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 200



« Reply #50 - Posted 2013-03-22 18:55:07 »

Hell, I'm still waiting for a proper JVM to officially land in Android Tongue

But Mono is sort of like the Dalvik of the CLR -- pokey, but plenty good enough to target anyway (that it can run unmodified CLR bytecode is gravy).
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 200



« Reply #51 - Posted 2013-03-22 18:56:27 »

Can I use this to run on iOS or a game console? Any links?

A jailbroken iOS device maybe.  JIT compilers are verboten under iOS's standard regime.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #52 - Posted 2013-03-22 18:59:03 »

No JDK for iOS yet. And there will never be a JIT for iOS, just so we're all aware of the fact, as sproingie says; it's a restriction of the OS.

Cas Smiley

Offline Sindisil

Senior Newbie


Medals: 2



« Reply #53 - Posted 2013-03-22 20:27:15 »

Except that Unity chose Mono, which is an alternative and under-performing .net VM.   Wink

Like it or not, the Mono VM runs infinitely faster on platforms to which no Java VM is available.

OMG ... really?  Shocked

I meant in comparison to Microsoft's VM, not Java.

Which is a comparison only applicable to Microsoft platforms, so my my point stands, modulo  s/Java VM/MS .NET VM/.
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #54 - Posted 2013-03-22 21:56:53 »

No JDK for iOS yet. And there will never be a JIT for iOS, just so we're all aware of the fact, as sproingie says; it's a restriction of the OS.

Cas Smiley

There is a communication gap. Of course, iOS can't run an official JRE and probably never will. We were talking about app app-embeddable like Mono that don't need official Apple approval. There is nothing stopping people from making an app-embeddable Java runtime that runs on iOS. The JavaFX group is already working on something like this and hopefully it won't be limited to JavaFX.
Online Roquen
« Reply #55 - Posted 2013-03-22 22:18:38 »

It's all a question of: ability, risk and opportunity cost.  The bottom line is that writing portable C or C++ code is dead easy if you plan for hitting multiple targets.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #56 - Posted 2013-03-22 23:08:56 »

No JDK for iOS yet. And there will never be a JIT for iOS, just so we're all aware of the fact, as sproingie says; it's a restriction of the OS.

Cas Smiley

There is a communication gap. Of course, iOS can't run an official JRE and probably never will. We were talking about app app-embeddable like Mono that don't need official Apple approval. There is nothing stopping people from making an app-embeddable Java runtime that runs on iOS. The JavaFX group is already working on something like this and hopefully it won't be limited to JavaFX.
There is; it's bloody hard. Unfortunately I'm under NDA so I can't tell you why.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #57 - Posted 2013-03-23 00:16:04 »

well every single app submitted to apple for the apple store is manually reviewed.
so I would imagine its next to impossible - and even if it gets through it might be removed afterwards if they feel that the dont want that

Offline nsigma
« Reply #58 - Posted 2013-03-23 11:32:52 »

I think Sindisil's point back there was it doesn't matter how theoretically faster a JVM is versus Mono on a platform which doesn't support Java. Mono can be put anywhere, which indeed, it has been.

I understand his point and yours.  I think you're slightly misunderstanding mine, which is that we should be comparing like with like.  Limiting your view of where Java runs to where HotSpot (or Oracle) is, while allowing for alternatives on the C# side, is what I was criticising.

Which is not to say I think that any option (commercial or community) is up to where MonoTouch is ... yet (hopefully!  Smiley ).

The JavaFX group is already working on something like this and hopefully it won't be limited to JavaFX.

Possibly interesting read - http://www.codenameone.com/3/post/2013/01/why-oracle-wont-issue-java-for-ios-anytime-soon.html  Of course, I'm not sure I believe their statement that it wouldn't affect their business plan, so I'd take it all with a pinch of salt!  Wink

Unfortunately I'm under NDA so I can't tell you why.

Can I presume that precludes you telling us who you're under an NDA with?  Grin

well every single app submitted to apple for the apple store is manually reviewed.
so I would imagine its next to impossible

I would assume it's technical, otherwise MonoTouch would be in the same boat.

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #59 - Posted 2013-03-23 12:26:31 »

My lips are sealed. Or fingers.

Cas Smiley

Pages: 1 [2] 3
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

xsi3rr4x (72 views)
2014-04-15 18:08:23

BurntPizza (68 views)
2014-04-15 03:46:01

UprightPath (79 views)
2014-04-14 17:39:50

UprightPath (65 views)
2014-04-14 17:35:47

Porlus (80 views)
2014-04-14 15:48:38

tom_mai78101 (104 views)
2014-04-10 04:04:31

BurntPizza (164 views)
2014-04-08 23:06:04

tom_mai78101 (260 views)
2014-04-05 13:34:39

trollwarrior1 (210 views)
2014-04-04 12:06:45

CJLetsGame (220 views)
2014-04-01 02:16:10
List of Learning Resources
by SHC
2014-04-18 03:17:39

List of Learning Resources
by Longarmx
2014-04-08 03:14:44

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-05 13:51:37

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:46

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:37

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:51

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:34

Anonymous/Local/Inner class gotchas
by Roquen
2014-03-11 15:22:30
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!