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  JDK: upcoming features  (Read 7342 times)
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Offline Roquen
« Posted 2013-01-04 08:42:41 »

I thought it might be kinda interesting to have a thread on upcoming features.

I just notice that nashorn is now in the JDK source tree.  Announcement here: https://blogs.oracle.com/nashorn/entry/open_for_business
Offline ra4king

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2013-01-04 09:13:26 »

Oh cool, this is the new JavaScript engine that utilizes the new "invokedynamic" instruction in the JVM?

I wonder how they're going about coding that.....it's not like you can use it in Java code! O_o

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2013-01-04 10:48:27 »

If there was ever a situation that would finally show everyone, "Look, our JIT beats the pants out of everything", it would be a JavaScript VM implemented by the Java VM. I look forward to benchmarks with interest.

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2013-01-04 14:01:08 »

Don't underestimate the many years spent optimising the JIT-compiler of V8. The Java folks are just new to the problem and it might take them a few years after the first public release to catch up.

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Offline matheus23

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2013-01-04 18:38:38 »

Don't underestimate the many years spent optimising the JIT-compiler of V8. The Java folks are just new to the problem and it might take them a few years after the first public release to catch up.
I totally agree. The V8 Engine is a beast.

When I download the nashorn engine, can I ship it with Java7, or do I need Java8? Smiley

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #5 - Posted 2013-01-04 18:52:26 »

Don't quote me on this, but I think that it requires JDK8 features.
Offline sproingie

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2013-01-04 20:01:27 »

Nashorn will be part of jdk8, replacing the existing implementation in javax.script afaik.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #7 - Posted 2013-02-21 13:19:16 »

Repeating annotations and (optional) parameter name storage (other than debug): http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~abuckley/8misc.pdf
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #8 - Posted 2013-02-21 15:14:47 »

I don't really see what's so great about project nashorn. I just read these slides: http://www.oracle.com/javaone/lad-en/session-presentations/clientside/24821-enok-1439095.pdf
Unless a browser vendor is going to replace their javascript engine with nashorn, which will never happen given java's recent security failings, what's the use? Calling java-class libraries from javascript is cool, but not if it is only going to work in the nashorn JVM-powered javascript engine and not on a real browser.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #9 - Posted 2013-02-21 15:28:45 »

Well for our purposes it makes using javascript as a scripting language from java more viable.  From Oracle's perspective I'd guess it's mostly a PR move of attempt to draw more attention to using the JVM for languages other than java.
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« Reply #10 - Posted 2013-02-21 15:34:48 »

It wouldn't be unreasonable to speculate that the performance of JS running on the JVM might actually exceed that of current serverside JS implementations (Node on V8 for example). Seeing as JS is becoming more interesting on the server side this is quite significant... if they can pull off the performance.

Cas Smiley

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #11 - Posted 2013-02-21 16:19:27 »

It baffles me as to why you would want to write JS on the serverside, what a nightmare. I thought most devs only used javascript because they had to on the client browser or because they are html devs who never learned a more fully-fledged programming language.

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2013-02-21 16:28:08 »

I don't really see what's so great about project nashorn. I just read these slides: http://www.oracle.com/javaone/lad-en/session-presentations/clientside/24821-enok-1439095.pdf
Unless a browser vendor is going to replace their javascript engine with nashorn, which will never happen given java's recent security failings, what's the use? Calling java-class libraries from javascript is cool, but not if it is only going to work in the nashorn JVM-powered javascript engine and not on a real browser.

Think less about web pages and more about node.js.  Or writing JavaFX apps in JS.  Personally I find JS a giant leap backward in language evolution, but hey, it is popular.  Another way to look at it is that Nashorn was already written (it was basically a proof of concept for invokedynamic) so they may as well take advantage of the existing work.
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« Reply #13 - Posted 2013-02-21 17:24:37 »

Yeah, I think it's completely mental as well to want to use JS on the server, but this is more I think about people moving skills around than anything else.

Cas Smiley

Offline krasse
« Reply #14 - Posted 2013-02-21 21:13:50 »

Yeah, I think it's completely mental as well to want to use JS on the server, but this is more I think about people moving skills around than anything else.


It is very nice to be able to share code between server and client and use json "natively". Also, if you combine this with mongoDB, you get a very neat package.
Also, please check out the meteor framework for something really crazy using this combo. Made my jaw drop Smiley

Offline OttoMeier

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2013-02-21 23:00:31 »

could be a nice way to intergate jacascript libs in java clients.
Same javascript libs are not that bad.
javafx + webview(webkit) + nashorn

javascript on serverside would be terribble indeed. Shocked

If you want to share code than go for a java client with javafx. I cant understand why people think a browser(designed to render static content) is a better plaftform than a vm(designed to execute code). But strangely "no deployment" is a killer phrase.

Imho the best new feature in java8 will be javafx8.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #16 - Posted 2013-02-22 09:11:35 »

For anyone playing with JDK8, there's been some tweaks: https://blogs.oracle.com/darcy/entry/functional_interfaces
Offline arnaud_couturier
« Reply #17 - Posted 2013-02-22 09:22:12 »

About javascript being popular server-side, I suppose it's the perceived "advantage" that you can quickly code the first 1000-5000 lines of code.
Beyond that, you need more experienced programmers.

With java, you hit that limit much much later, but it takes a bit more work to setup things.

Also it seems javascript on the server is "cool" because it's new/unusual.

I don't really see what javascript on the JVM is useful for. If I ever need a scripting language, I'd use groovy.
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« Reply #18 - Posted 2013-02-22 10:42:17 »

It's useful for when you're rendering HTML/CSS/JS pages on the client, as you might be doing should you be using JavaFX, for example... and I suppose as a scripting language for games it's no more or less useful than Groovy, except a lot more people know it.

Cas Smiley

Offline arnaud_couturier
« Reply #19 - Posted 2013-02-22 12:03:16 »

Oh ok.
Because JavaFX is using Webkit, I assumed the javascript engine was tied to it.

So they can replace it: V8 in Chrome, Nashorn in JVM...
Offline concerto49

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2013-02-22 22:51:44 »

Personally prefers Groovy as a scripting language. Guess it's not part of the JDK. Oh no.

Node.js whilst having its merits feels like a hack. Javascript is old and full of flaws. It makes people pull hairs. Unfortunately it got popular and will never be dropped. Now it's just spammed in every situation possible.

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Offline Danny02
« Reply #21 - Posted 2013-02-23 08:45:00 »

Javascript is old and full of flaws. It makes people pull hairs. Unfortunately it got popular and will never be dropped. Now it's just spammed in every situation possible.

felt the same when c++ gamedev made the point that lua is the best for game scripting.
hate these untyped prototype based languages
Offline gene9

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2013-03-19 16:37:56 »

I thought it might be kinda interesting to have a thread on upcoming features.

The Java 8 runtime has large performance enhancements. I've personally run benchmarks on personal projects and seen the delta between C++ cut in half.

The language and API changes in Java 8 are nice, but it's still way behind Scala. If you want an elegant language and library, just use that.

Personally, I'm hoping for:

- better runtime support: iOS + non-Dalvik Android + Google NaCl + PlayStation Consoles.
- Better 3D rendering performance. I've heard Java OpenGL bindings are limited.
- Better community. The Java game dev community is pretty quiet. I'd like to see more activity.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #23 - Posted 2013-03-19 16:43:11 »

Current reports are load/linking times are slower due to changing stuff over to lambdas (more work for the runtime compiler to resolve).
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« Reply #24 - Posted 2013-03-19 19:24:34 »

- Better 3D rendering performance. I've heard Java OpenGL bindings are limited.
- Better community. The Java game dev community is pretty quiet. I'd like to see more activity.
3D rendering in Java is as fast as it can ever get.

As for community... this is it. It is what we make of it!

Cas Smiley

Offline gene9

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« Reply #25 - Posted 2013-03-19 20:10:07 »

- Better 3D rendering performance. I've heard Java OpenGL bindings are limited.
- Better community. The Java game dev community is pretty quiet. I'd like to see more activity.
3D rendering in Java is as fast as it can ever get.

As for community... this is it. It is what we make of it!

Cas Smiley

I actually have zero experience with Java 3D work. I really should have qualified that. There are Java 3D engines (jME, etc) but why don't we see anything that really competes with Unreal or Unity?

The community is almost non-existent weak. Cas, you are one of very few Java game devs. Even successful devs like Notch have jumped ship to normal C++ tools. This is a relatively fringe and disorganized group. Java games would need some larger sponsors to take off.

Cas, you should know: what else is limiting the success of JVM tools in game development?

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2013-03-19 22:37:24 »

The only real limitation is that Java does not run everywhere, but C++ does.

Java is actually ahead of Unity btw.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #27 - Posted 2013-03-20 11:22:57 »

The community is almost non-existent weak. Cas, you are one of very few Java game devs. Even successful devs like Notch have jumped ship to normal C++ tools. This is a relatively fringe and disorganized group. Java games would need some larger sponsors to take off.
The community is neither non-existent nor weak. Lots of Android and desktop games use LibGDX. The success of Java can't depend on a very few people. Minecraft is great but I advise you to forget Notch, some people will probably succeed in making great games in Java, don't insult the future. Java is nice for cross-platform cheaper development and a nice weapon against planned obsolescence which is nice for end users too but not for those who want to force them to renew their hardware more often. Some corporations don't want any cross-platform and cheap solution to emerge. If it is cross-platform but it requires quite recent hardware, it is ok for the "industry". If it is cross-platform and able to work very well on an old computer bought in 2000 as well as on all major operating systems for smartphones, it is a problem for the industry as an end user can buy a game and use it "forever", he might plan to renew his hardware less often. Why do you think next generation consoles will probably not support second hand games, used games? Are there equivalents of Java-gaming.org for other programming langages? I might be wrong but I don't think so. Do we really need larger sponsors? I think we need more games, not only more AAA games. Why should we concentrate on a very few famous developers? The maintenance of the tools they use depend on less visible people. Don't forget that JMonkeyEngine, Ardor3D, Xith3D, Java3D, JogAmp, LWJGL, ... would not exist without their contributors and Minecraft would not exist without LWJGL.

Offline Sublixt

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2013-03-20 12:10:07 »

- Better 3D rendering performance. I've heard Java OpenGL bindings are limited.
- Better community. The Java game dev community is pretty quiet. I'd like to see more activity.
3D rendering in Java is as fast as it can ever get.

As for community... this is it. It is what we make of it!

Cas Smiley

I actually have zero experience with Java 3D work. I really should have qualified that. There are Java 3D engines (jME, etc) but why don't we see anything that really competes with Unreal or Unity?

The community is almost non-existent weak. Cas, you are one of very few Java game devs. Even successful devs like Notch have jumped ship to normal C++ tools. This is a relatively fringe and disorganized group. Java games would need some larger sponsors to take off.

Cas, you should know: what else is limiting the success of JVM tools in game development?



I've worked with both Unity and jME. As for power Unity in many cases has jME beat, but not by much. I'm quite impressed by how well jME preforms compared to c++ based engines. As for making a game with the engine, I prefer jME every time. With jME you have much more controlled over the internals of the engine. With Unity, the developers seemed to do is choose the generally best algorithm, and lose any versatility for finding the specifically best algorithm.

This community is no where near quiet. It's not a five posts per second community, but I like how much this community contributes. I don't think sponsors are the solution. Look at mine craft, 0 sponsors and it took off like any AAA game while it was still in beta.

As for Notch's tools, I think they are all in Java. He just converts his launchers into os specific executables so more people understand how to launch his game.
Offline gene9

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2013-03-20 16:06:39 »

I've worked with both Unity and jME. As for power Unity in many cases has jME beat, but not by much. I'm quite impressed by how well jME preforms compared to c++ based engines. As for making a game with the engine, I prefer jME every time. With jME you have much more controlled over the internals of the engine. With Unity, the developers seemed to do is choose the generally best algorithm, and lose any versatility for finding the specifically best algorithm.

This community is no where near quiet. It's not a five posts per second community, but I like how much this community contributes. I don't think sponsors are the solution. Look at mine craft, 0 sponsors and it took off like any AAA game while it was still in beta.

Just glancing at the websites of Unity3d and JME and looking at the galleries, showcases, documentation, tutorials, and forums: JME looks like more of a hobby project while Unity looks far more professional. Unity has tons of games I've actual heard of and actually bought. I would never have heard of JME or any of the games written in it if I wasn't a Java programmer. The forums of Unity3d.com alone look more active with serious game devs than this site.

I'm rooting for Java and JME because I love the more open community aspect of it. I love that I can use my favorite language, Scala, all my favorite JVM libraries and tools, and my favorite IDE, IntelliJ or maybe Eclipse for Scala work, and do development from my Linux workstation.

Unity is tied in with Mono: personally, I dislike working in that community, so even if the game engine tech is great, I don't want to use that product. But realistically, that product is just far more developed and seems to be far more successful. Honestly, I am not doing game development at the moment, and I haven't used either jME or unity3d as a dev, so I'm not making any claims at that level.
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