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  Do you think Java3D has a future?  (Read 4202 times)
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Offline Ifadolai

Junior Devvie




Java forever!!


« Posted 2003-12-08 07:24:58 »

What is the destiny of Java3D??

Nikolai V. Christensen, Computer Engineer,
Simulation and Training department
IFAD, Forskerparken 10A, DK-5230 Odense M
Denmark, EU
Phone: +45 63 15 71 31  Fax: +45 65 93 29 99
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-12-08 09:19:04 »

My view is pessimist (or is that realistic?) I think they'll just let it die.  Otherwise they would have squashed the rumours a very long time ago.

However, I am very happy with the new direction Sun is taking with Java1.5, JOGL and the whole Gaming initiative Smiley  I can't wait to see the JVM on a console one day in the not too distant future.

Fortunatally most of the time I had spent learning Java3D was not wasted as I am able to apply my knowledge to Xith3D.

Will.

Offline Jens

Senior Devvie




Java for games!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-12-08 10:16:40 »

I think the probability is high that it will die or is already dead. No one at Sun is working on Java3D currently. It's still a robust API, which can be used for lots of purposes, but for good games you must be able to use new features. For most people Xith3D will be an alternative, which is faster and actively developed. It also has the advantage of being open-source, which is a strong argument for many developers, especially after the (possible) death of Java3D. I'm not sure if the availibility of the Mac-port changes anything about the future of Java3D.

Let me quote the community site j3d.org:
Quote

27 July

The final two developers working on Java3D have been sacked by Sun. That means there is no official support coming from them, and obviously no further development. At this point Java3D is effectively dead, unless the various community efforts can convince Sun to release all or part of the source. We're keeping track of the various efforts with replacement scene graphs and also expect to see further announcements from us too with respect to where the site is going in the future.


Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
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Offline Ifadolai

Junior Devvie




Java forever!!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-12-08 10:31:32 »

> The final two developers working on Java3D have been sacked by Sun.

No, we know this is untrue as Chien Yang is still unboard. If he is fulltime on Java3D I dont know however.

Also Kelvin Chung is only taking a break this fall, he said he will be back.


So it is untrue, simply put.

Nikolai V. Christensen, Computer Engineer,
Simulation and Training department
IFAD, Forskerparken 10A, DK-5230 Odense M
Denmark, EU
Phone: +45 63 15 71 31  Fax: +45 65 93 29 99
Offline Jens

Senior Devvie




Java for games!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-12-08 10:37:23 »

I think you should send a mail to the j3d.org people, if you know more than they do. It's important to know wether people still work on it or not.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Ifadolai

Junior Devvie




Java forever!!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-12-08 11:27:35 »

I am sure they already know. They probably just dont update their website much.

Nikolai V. Christensen, Computer Engineer,
Simulation and Training department
IFAD, Forskerparken 10A, DK-5230 Odense M
Denmark, EU
Phone: +45 63 15 71 31  Fax: +45 65 93 29 99
Offline Andrew Davison

Junior Devvie


Medals: 2



« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-12-08 23:02:49 »


There's a lot of ways of talking about the 'future'. For
example, it's interesting to ask:

 "Does the scene graph approach to 3D programming
   have a future?"

Another variant of the question is:
 "Do the ideas used in Java 3D have a future?"

How about:
 "Does Java 3D have a future as a teaching tool?"

How about:
 "When learning 3D programming techniques, is
   it better to use a stable, well documented package,
  with many users, or a very interesting prototype
  which is being actively developed as we speak?"

How about:
  "When we have conflicting reports about a package,
   one by the software's developer, one by the FAQ
   maintainer, who do we believe?"

- Andrew


Dr. Andrew Davison
Dept. of Computer Engineering
Prince of Songkla University, Hat Yai
Songkhla 90112, Thailand
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-12-09 00:04:40 »

Quote

There's a lot of ways of talking about the 'future'. For
example, it's interesting to ask:

 "Does the scene graph approach to 3D programming
   have a future?"

Another variant of the question is:
 "Do the ideas used in Java 3D have a future?"

How about:
 "Does Java 3D have a future as a teaching tool?"

How about:
 "When learning 3D programming techniques, is
   it better to use a stable, well documented package,
  with many users, or a very interesting prototype
  which is being actively developed as we speak?"

How about:
  "When we have conflicting reports about a package,
   one by the software's developer, one by the FAQ
   maintainer, who do we believe?"

- Andrew



Definitally "Yes" to the first two.

Your points regarding learning and documentation are very valid and Java3D excells over Xith3D there (but we're working on it - the GSG is now almost 80 pages).  But the other nice thing about Xith3D from a teaching and learning perspective is that you can open the hood and see what makes it ticks since it's open source - and even participate in the development.

Another question is:

How do we guarantee the survival of a scenegraph?

Open source is one answer to this as if development stops there is a change for other people to step in and take over where the previous developers left off.

Will.

Offline Herkules

Senior Devvie




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-12-09 04:12:29 »

Does this poll really make sense? I mean - it is not about OPINION, but totally about speculation.

The decision is made somewhere else, regardless of peoples speculations.

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-12-09 04:37:21 »

Wow, I agree with Herk twice in two days! The only fair answer to the poll if you don't actively work at Sun, in direct relation to Java 3D (i.e. you're not Doug) is "I have no idea".

Kev

PS: If its opinion based, you might want to add the option "Who cares? I've got [API X] now."

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Offline Jens

Senior Devvie




Java for games!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-12-09 06:32:43 »

The question is what we believe will happen, so it's intended to be pure speculation. If this were not the case (which means we know exactly what's going on), the poll would be superfluous, too.  Wink

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-12-09 06:51:14 »

Hmm.. I read the question as with the topic:

"Do Java3D have an future"

Has the question been updated?

Kev

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-12-09 08:15:25 »

Quote
Hmm.. I read the question as with the topic:

"Do Java3D have an future"

Has the question been updated?

Kev


"Do Java3D have an future" is just the topic subject Smiley

The question of the poll is:
"What do you believe will happen to Java3D?"

[edit] And I don't think that's been changed[/edit]

So yes, it's all about speculation, seems to be just about all we've had for the last what is it, half year?

Will.

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-12-09 08:41:50 »

Quote

"Do Java3D have an future" is just the topic subject  

The question of the poll is:
"What do you believe will happen to Java3D?"

[edit] And I don't think that's been changed[/edit]

Well sooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrreeee..  guess I should just learn to keep my big fat mouth shut. Smiley

Kev

EDIT: Forgot smiley

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-12-09 08:50:45 »

lol it is all very confusing - quite fitting in context with the subject of this thread Wink

Quote
guess I should just learn to keep my big fat mouth shut.


I think I should probably follow suit

Will.

Offline Preston

Senior Devvie


Medals: 4



« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-12-09 09:57:33 »

Quote
Does this poll really make sense? I mean - it is not about OPINION, but totally about speculation.

The decision is made somewhere else, regardless of peoples speculations.

Well, I think the Poll makes sense. If you start a commercial 3d Java game/project today and you don't think SUN's Java3d will make it another year you very likely won't use it, isn't it?
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-12-09 11:00:29 »

Hmmm what IS Java?
What is 3D?
What is the fututre? :-P

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline Herkules

Senior Devvie




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-12-09 12:57:52 »

Quote

Well, I think the Poll makes sense. If you start a commercial 3d Java game/project today and you don't think SUN's Java3d will make it another year you very likely won't use it, isn't it?


Sure. I personally am in the situation that I HAVE a Java3D game and need to decide wether to port somewhere else or not.

But the poll doesn't help me at all! Even if 100% vote for 'Sun will continue' ..... tomorrow they could announce it's dead.

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Herkules

Senior Devvie




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-12-09 12:59:09 »

Quote
Hmmm what IS Java?
What is 3D?
What is the fututre? :-P


You are talking in the sleep??

Shawn ... wake up .... Shaaaaawnnnnn ....
 Roll Eyes

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Preston

Senior Devvie


Medals: 4



« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-12-09 13:27:37 »

Quote
Sure. I personally am in the situation that I HAVE a Java3D game and need to decide wether to port somewhere else or not.

But the poll doesn't help me at all! Even if 100% vote for 'Sun will continue' ..... tomorrow they could announce it's dead.

Of course nobody can vote about the truth in a way "Do you think the truth is true or not?". ;-)   (Well, actually this is done all day but it's nonsense, I agree)

However apparently it's not clear to the users (read 3d developers using Java) whether Java3d is alive or not.
So: has the truth about Java3d been said to the users in a clear way? (Please remember that SUN's Java3d WWW page has been one of the last sources to tell that there's a Macos-X port of Java3d... looks like the Java3d site admins are uninformed, too.)

So I suggest to take the poll as a hint whether Java developers (tending to know SUN from a developer's point of view) trust SUN to keep Java3d alive or not.

If this hint helps anybody, that's another question.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-12-09 14:20:51 »

It seems that most people are sure that sun will continue to say they are developing j3d...
Offline misterX

Junior Devvie




java forever!


« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-12-13 19:40:51 »

well, in developpement or not, it'll stay a very good and robust api.
Offline zingbat

Senior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-12-30 21:46:13 »

Well a fork is a very good tool to eat spagethi but not soup. Java3d is very good for education purposes and if people dont have big demands for their games it can be nice too.

But look at things this way, if you want to develop a game with fair graphics for today standards then you will require some help from artists and musiciens. These guys use programs like 3dstudio and maya and music programs  that export to midi or mp3. I cant say i have seen such good import utilities in java3d for 3dstudio or maya 3d formats.

There are some fair alternatives like java opengl or java openal but we can't join java3d benefits with the flexibility of those apis. People cant create or modify the c++ bridge that comunicates with the lower level apis like opengl or directx to customize its own version of java3d with it.

Java3d is a very monolitic api at the lower level and that was probably the biggest mistake the java3d developers made. Being extremely flexible is a primary requirement for an api to be used in graphical intensive computer games development. Even more important than good and clean code or excelent documentation.

Im afraid that Sun has to concern themselfs with market share. Making an api that is good for teaching purposes means less bucks than making one with which computer game programers can make visually stunning games.
Offline Ifadolai

Junior Devvie




Java forever!!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-03-19 12:33:23 »


Only 7.4% of the voters was daring enough to believe it: Java3D being open/community sourced.

I guess there is no lesson to be learned from this poll, beside  fulfilling my curiosity.  Smiley

Nikolai V. Christensen, Computer Engineer,
Simulation and Training department
IFAD, Forskerparken 10A, DK-5230 Odense M
Denmark, EU
Phone: +45 63 15 71 31  Fax: +45 65 93 29 99
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