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  Which shading language should be supported first?  (Read 2545 times)
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Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Posted 2003-12-05 11:22:38 »

This poll is a follow-up for topic http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=xith3d;action=display;num=1070378327 "Pixel Shaders with Xith3d?".

There are pros and cons in every approach, so lets vote.

It would be great if you add your comments with explanations why you prefer one approach or don't like another.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-12-05 11:28:56 »

GLSL, any day of the week

Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-12-05 11:36:06 »

Hi
 No personal need for either right this second. I just think that going with a standard, rather than one manufactureres implementation is a good idea Smiley

Endolf

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Offline tomcat

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-12-05 12:36:21 »

I prefer to stay with standards.
tomcat
Offline Java Cool Dude

Senior Member




Java forever


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-12-05 17:06:00 »

Standards, death to exclusive manufacturers' shaders
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-12-06 10:40:12 »

Standards, standards, standards!

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-12-06 11:12:39 »

How well these 'standards' are supported on middle range hardware (pre GeforceFX) ? I know that a lot can be made with Cg there, while AFAIK opengl vertex/fragment program extension is just not supported at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if it is true, I see a major counterargument to 'standard' shouting.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-12-06 13:16:39 »

If we support the OpenGL shading language, is OpenGL 1.5 or OpenGL 2.0 required? I read the other thread, but don't know how to interpret it correctly. (OpenGL 1.5 does not support the shading language, but it's available as a set of extensions.)

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Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-12-06 14:38:04 »

Quote
I know that a lot can be made with Cg there, while AFAIK opengl vertex/fragment program extension is just not supported at all.


This is true, and I know only one vendor who supports GLSL (also sometimes named as GLslang) on their high-end cards - 3DLabs, and AFAIK GLSL is their development: http://www.3dlabs.com/support/developer/ogl2/index.htm. Currently this is approved as official ARB extension.

NVidia Cg can not be treated as vendor-specific language, at least because of it can generate code for ARB_vertex_program extension, supporrted by different vendors (say, 3DLabs and ATI). You can check FAQ at http://www.cgshaders.org/articles/interview_davidkirk02.php for more details. Cg is just one more layer on top of existing and supported OpenGL specs and extensions.

On the other hand, I read somewhere that NVidia has plans to support GLSL/GLslang.

Very important point is that for a moment I am not sure if there are bindings for GLSL extensions in JOGL (or other OpenGL bindings for Java), while functional Cg bindings are existing and tested. They include nice mechanisms for specifying parameters for high-level Cg programs, so it is much easier to integrate than other shading languages.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-12-06 14:41:44 »

Depends entirely on platform support. While there will be GLslang support for OSX, there is not even a peep from nVidia for almost 18 months about ANY support for Cg on OSX.

I've asked more than a few times and they don't seem sincerely interested.

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Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-12-06 14:43:18 »

Quote
If we support the OpenGL shading language, is OpenGL 1.5 or OpenGL 2.0 required?


I don't think you should loose compatibility with OpenGL 1.2, so if application does not use programmable shaders it should run no pbs on the older HW. Actually, app should (can) detect if these functions supported on the system before using them.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-12-06 15:03:18 »

Quote
I don't think you should loose compatibility with OpenGL 1.2, so if application does not use programmable shaders it should run no pbs on the older HW.


That's obvious. I wanted to know which OpenGL version is required to use the OpenGL shading language if we support it.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-12-06 15:54:09 »

Quote
I wanted to know which OpenGL version is required to use the shading language if we support it.


Actually, this does not depend on OpenGL version but rather on availability of specific extensions:

You can start using Cg with OpenGL 1.3 if you have available extensions like NV_vertex_program, NV_vertex_program1_1 or ARB_vertex_program.

App should not rely on OpenGL version but only on presence of extension and/or function entry points, because of some vendors may decide to drop some older extensions, besides of they are part of OpenGL spec.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-12-07 08:05:24 »

Regarding the OpenGL version required for GLslang, looks like it requires OpenGL 1.4 or higher:

Quote
OpenGL Shading Language
This 865 KB pdf document describes a programming language that is a companion to OpenGL 1.4 and higher, called The OpenGL Shading Language.


This is from http://www.opengl.org/documentation/oglsl.html.

But again, OpenGL Shading Language is an OpenGL extension (actually, 3 separate extensions), so OpenGL version is not so important and major point if these extensions supported or not.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline Preston

Senior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-12-18 11:49:51 »

The new Ati Catalyst v3.10 driver adds support for the OpenGL Shading Language.

http://www2.ati.com/drivers/Catalyst_310_Release_Notes.html

Good news I think because now Ati support this directly.
[Edit] Nvidia said in October, they contributed to the OpenGL Shading Language (what does this mean actually?).
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-12-21 12:26:23 »

Quote
Good news I think because now both, Nividia and Ati, support this.


Is there some info on that NVidia already supports GLslang?

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline Preston

Senior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-12-22 04:03:35 »

Quote

Is there some info on that NVidia already supports GLslang?

Unfortunately I just read in a press release from October about their contribution to the OpenGL shading language: http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_9075.html
"[..] NVIDIA was also one of the primary contributors to the new OpenGLĀ® Shading Language extension. [..]"

Maybe I confused their contribution with "already supported by current drivers"... ? :-(
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-12-22 06:45:02 »

This is exacly what I meant - AFAIK, NVidia does not support GLslang yet. They have plans to add this, but for a moment they do not support it, so even if we'll add GLslang to Xith3D right now this will be useless for majority of devs, especially on non-Windows platforms, while Cg will work at least on Windows & Linux.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-12-25 14:24:30 »

Cg is also mostly useless for users of non nVidia hardware. While I can go through the hassle of building a shader and compiling it with nvidias tools into something that can run on ATI hardware, if I do that - not really a whole lot of sense supporting Cg at all - as I'm just making an OpenGL call to render with the compiled shader.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-12-25 18:16:03 »

OK, but Cg does also much more - parameter management, support for different low-level languages (at least, NV_vertex_program and ARB_vertex_program are supported).

OK, I had no chance to play with Cg on ATI cards, but I will get several ATI cards for tests soon and will definitely try this.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
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