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  Obama won  (Read 7518 times)
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Offline sproingie

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Medals: 202



« Reply #60 - Posted 2012-11-08 19:43:54 »

I'd say human nature says everything about psychology, but it's kind of a tautological definition at best: "How we behave is because of what we are".  Well duh.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #61 - Posted 2012-11-08 20:07:30 »

The behavior is not innate. For example, there is no criminal "by nature", it has been proven more than one century ago.

Offline Damocles
« Reply #62 - Posted 2012-11-08 20:12:32 »

check that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
some are just born with a personality like that.

And that parts of a behavior are innate, you can observe  in twins
which share certain personality traits,
more than normal siblings.

People have more born in traits than they like to admit...


Also check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Before_Civilization
The homicide rate in tribal societies was many times higher than in the western world.

Quote
90-95% of known societies engage in war
   .. its human nature

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Offline actual

JGO Coder


Medals: 23



« Reply #63 - Posted 2012-11-08 21:02:11 »

The behavior is not innate. For example, there is no criminal "by nature", it has been proven more than one century ago.

There is the concept of behavioral genetics and that the "range of reaction" from a personality/emotional standpoint and it is becoming more possible to genetically classify people as being pre-disposed to certain patterns of behaviors such as being a hot head, depression, lacking empathy, etc.

Statistically, you could probably then calculate various levels of associations between these behavior sets with different types of crimes (along with appropriate error bars and confidence intervals). So while there is no "murder gene" that can predict whether or not you will kill someone in your lifetime, you could get to a point where they could run a dna test on you and say "according to an aggregation of several factors in your genetic make up you are 23% more likely than someone in the general population to commit a violent offense.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #64 - Posted 2012-11-08 21:06:52 »

A statistical proof is not a formal proof, keep it in mind. As far as I know, genetic determinism in psychology is a controversial subject, there is no consensus about that.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


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Hand over your head.


« Reply #65 - Posted 2012-11-08 21:15:32 »

There is a huge correlation between prisoners (people considered criminal) and these people having brain disorders. They are significantly (or should we say: extremely) over-represented. There is also a huge correlation between brain disorders and genes.

There is no absolute proof or direct causation, but genetics can indeed make you pre-disposed to crime.

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Offline actual

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Medals: 23



« Reply #66 - Posted 2012-11-08 21:18:03 »

A statistical proof is not a formal proof, keep it in mind. As far as I know, genetic determinism in psychology is a controversial subject, there is no consensus about that.

When it comes to behavior and things of that sort, there is no such thing as "proof" only levels of association and/or causation.  I don't think there is much controversy that there is a genetic component to behavior although there work ongoing work to determine the level of influence that genetics exerts on personality and to what extent it can be overcome via environmental factors.
Offline ra4king

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« Reply #67 - Posted 2012-11-08 21:25:37 »

First, he/she comes off as a complete ass when they start off with insulting whom ever the reader is.
Err....you mean the "explain like I'm five" thing, which is what that subreddit is called? There was no insult Tongue

I can't argue economics to save my life.....mostly because I skipped that macro-economics class at school and don't understand anything Grin

So I will stop here Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #68 - Posted 2012-11-08 22:07:36 »

genetics can indeed make you pre-disposed to crime.
I have abused of Minority Reports. Almost only American scientists make such claims nowadays. In Europe, Italian positivist criminologist Cesare Lombroso who wrote the book "born criminal" failed to prove the existence of such predispositions and the French anthropologist Alexandre Lacassagne proved he was wrong. No psychologist, anthropologist and sociologist go on defending such principles in Europe nowadays. We already know where positivism leads.

Offline actual

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Medals: 23



« Reply #69 - Posted 2012-11-08 22:39:49 »

I have abused of Minority Reports. Almost only American scientists make such claims nowadays. In Europe, Italian positivist criminologist Cesare Lombroso who wrote the book "born criminal" failed to prove the existence of such predispositions and the French anthropologist Alexandre Lacassagne proved he was wrong. No psychologist, anthropologist and sociologist go on defending such principles in Europe nowadays. We already know where positivism leads.
On this topic, the opinions of geneticists and biologists are more useful than that of psychologists, anthropologists, or sociologists. While I agree that there is no "murder gene" that guarantees that someone will attempt to murder someone, however, it is clear that aspects of mood, behavior, and temperament are influenced by a person's genetics. So clearly genetics plays some part in criminial behavior.
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Offline gouessej
« Reply #70 - Posted 2012-11-08 23:32:10 »

I have abused of Minority Reports. Almost only American scientists make such claims nowadays. In Europe, Italian positivist criminologist Cesare Lombroso who wrote the book "born criminal" failed to prove the existence of such predispositions and the French anthropologist Alexandre Lacassagne proved he was wrong. No psychologist, anthropologist and sociologist go on defending such principles in Europe nowadays. We already know where positivism leads.
On this topic, the opinions of geneticists and biologists are more useful than that of psychologists, anthropologists, or sociologists. While I agree that there is no "murder gene" that guarantees that someone will attempt to murder someone, however, it is clear that aspects of mood, behavior, and temperament are influenced by a person's genetics. So clearly genetics plays some part in criminial behavior.
You speak about behavior, it concerns psychologists, they are even more concerned by this topic than geneticists. The genotype evolves a little during a whole life whereas mood, temperament and behavior are not set in stone. There is no precise study pointing out a precise couple of genes involved in "bad" temperament, it is a very subjective notion. It's a complete philosophical nonsense to try to explain crimes and behavior with the genetics. Genetics explain the transmission of some mental troubles that are known to be hereditary, it does not mean that it is the key to a deep understanding of criminology.

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #71 - Posted 2012-11-08 23:45:51 »

I actually wasn't trying to claim inbuilt predisposition, I was actually just pointing out the silliness of saying "people behave according to human nature" (as opposed to what, giraffe nature?) without actually nailing down one's definition of human nature.  But I guess the way I phrased it could have been read that way.
Offline actual

JGO Coder


Medals: 23



« Reply #72 - Posted 2012-11-08 23:57:17 »


Quote from: gouessej
You speak about behavior, it concerns psychologists, they are even more concerned by this topic than geneticists.

Behavior concerns psychologists but we were talking about innate behavior and whether people are predisposed towards certain behaviors. This is the realm of genetics (and perhaps evolutionary biologists) as the predisposition is

Quote
The genotype evolves a little during a whole life whereas mood, temperament and behavior are not set in stone. There is no precise study pointing out a precise couple of genes involved in "bad" temperament, it is a very subjective notion. It's a complete philosophical nonsense to try to explain crimes and behavior with the genetics.

It certainly is not nonsense and there is active research in this area. Again, no one is claiming that a single gene will absolutely determine that someone will commit a specific type of crime. It is an issue of being statistically more likely/less likely.

Unraveling the genetic etiology of adult antisocial behavior: a genome-wide association study

There are other examples on pubmed.

Quote
Genetics explain the transmission of some mental troubles that are known to be hereditary, it does not mean that it is the key to a deep understanding of criminology.

No one said it was key to a deep understanding of criminology, but it can help understand the extent to which people are pre-disposed towards criminal behavior which have implications for early detection, ethics, treatment, punishment, etc.

Quote from: sproingie
I actually wasn't trying to claim inbuilt predisposition, I was actually just pointing out the silliness of saying "people behave according to human nature" (as opposed to what, giraffe nature?) without actually nailing down one's definition of human nature.  But I guess the way I phrased it could have been read that way.

Too late! It's an internet forum battle now! Smiley

Ok...back to gamedev.....


Offline ctomni231

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Not a glitch. Just have a lil' pixelexia...


« Reply #73 - Posted 2012-11-09 05:06:03 »

Genetics altering how a person behaves? Even statistically it will probably be close to nothing. People's actions has a lot more to do with environment and social background.

There are some genetic traits that do pass along to social. Like, it is easier for a native Chinese person to learn Chinese than any other race because their brains (and mouths) are hard wired to do so. Genetics even separated the gender of males and females making males a bit stronger and their arms more accurate, and made females better at multi-tasking and communication.

Even with those previous extreme genetic examples, a person will have to be completely separated from the world in order to act with those traits. Psychology is very deeply influenced by society and the people you live around (environment). Depending on your influence, that is where most of these violent traits come from.

IMHO, it is a mere coincidence that people in jail have similar genetic traits. There is so many factors that contribute to people doing violent actions. In other words, there is absolutely no way you can single out one genetic trait that will create/ contribute to a particular behavior. One will have to look at all the environmental factors, and you'll probably find that they have a much bigger role than any single trait.

Think about it, just because boys are strong doesn't mean we all have to wrestle bears, hunt food, or fight wars. Our genetic traits build us for a specific task, but they do not shape our decisions. They just make us better for performing the task. It is the influence of our environment that constitutes what we do with our traits. The people we meet, the place we live in, and what we interact with all affects the psychology.

There is a definite split between both ends. Genetics might build you better for a task, but psychology factors will determine whether that task is done. (Making statistics about it rather useless...)

Offline Grunnt

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Medals: 68
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #74 - Posted 2012-11-09 07:59:36 »

Like, it is easier for a native Chinese person to learn Chinese than any other race because their brains (and mouths) are hard wired to do so.

On the topic of Chinese, have you guys seen the how Microsoft got the Universal Translator pretty much working?  Grin

Offline actual

JGO Coder


Medals: 23



« Reply #75 - Posted 2012-11-09 15:02:51 »

I don't understand why this is so controversial.

1. Criminality is influenced (among other things) by temperament
2. Temperament is influenced  (among other things) by genetics.

Both of these have ample scientific support. It reasonably follows that genetics does play some role in criminality. What current research is uncovering is (1) more specifically what genes may be involved and (2) the extent of the correlation.


No one is saying:

1. Genetics is the main/only determining factor in whether someone will commit crime.
Environment clearly plays a huge role but that doesn't mean that genetics doesn't play a role. Just because two people growing up in very similar environments may have vastly different outcomes, doesn't mean environment doesn't play any role the same is true for genetics.

2. If you have genotype X you are guaranteed to commit a crime.

Online Roquen
« Reply #76 - Posted 2012-11-09 16:27:58 »

Well, I'd drop the "criminality" bit and say that there are without question physiological factors which can influence behavior and/or personality traits.  This will make people uncomfortable for a number of reasons, such as a knee-jerk reaction to the policies of some not-to-be-named socialist party government in the 1930s-40s.  (I mentioned the war, but I don't think they noticed).  And people love the notion of "free-will".  Nobody wasn't there to hard to control (or uncontrollable) demons inside of ourselves or others.  But we know that so-called chemical imbalances when untreated or untreatable can cause behavioral changes (to put it mildly).  Above normal levels of testosterone and aggression?  That seems to go back and forth...cause you know, correlation doesn't mean causation makes all of these kinds of things tricky, but I've the impression that mainstream thinking is yes, there is a correlation.

Back to the "root" of this derail-of-a-derail-of-a-derail.  I would say that self-interest and increasing self-worth are a fundamental parts of human nature.  And that these are what drives us to both very positive and very negative things.
Offline ra4king

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« Reply #77 - Posted 2012-11-09 21:16:45 »

Holy crap how exactly did we get on the topic of "criminality"?!

Offline Grunnt

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Medals: 68
Projects: 8
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Complex != complicated


« Reply #78 - Posted 2012-11-09 22:47:29 »

Holy crap how exactly did we get on the topic of "criminality"?!

It's interesting how these things go Grin

Offline theagentd
« Reply #79 - Posted 2012-11-09 22:48:09 »

I am right and I have XKCD to prove it!  Grin http://xkcd.com/1131/

Myomyomyo.
Offline actual

JGO Coder


Medals: 23



« Reply #80 - Posted 2012-11-09 23:25:31 »

I think I have the correct XKCD. Partly I know this because of my genetic predisposition for selecting the proper XKCD comic depending on the situation.
Offline theagentd
« Reply #81 - Posted 2012-11-10 00:15:31 »

I think I have the correct XKCD. Partly I know this because of my genetic predisposition for selecting the proper XKCD comic depending on the situation.
How can you blame me?! IT'S IRRESISTIBLE!

Myomyomyo.
Offline masteryoom

JGO Coder


Medals: 5
Projects: 2


If you look closely, you might see it turning...


« Reply #82 - Posted 2012-11-10 00:21:31 »

Are we now having a battle over the right web address?  Roll Eyes

Smiley
Offline tberthel
« Reply #83 - Posted 2012-11-10 03:41:37 »

This is how I see it. US Presidents 35+ years.

Malaise FascistJolly FascistElitist FascistHorn Dog FascistIdiot FascistCommunist/Fascist
CarterReaganBush IClintonBush IIObama

I suspect I know why 24k people registered for Mars One.  Life is shit for those constantly paying for the Fascist Police State scam.

I miss Reagan.

Offline ra4king

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« Reply #84 - Posted 2012-11-10 04:14:20 »

Hot damn tberthel! Quite a conspiracy theorist aren't you Wink

Offline Jimmt
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« Reply #85 - Posted 2012-11-10 04:15:25 »

THEYRE ALL WORKING FOR CHINA   Pointing Pointing Pointing us philosophy
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