Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (79)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (477)
Games in Android Showcase (107)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (535)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  Excelsior JET for 10 bucks ?  (Read 3367 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline Cero
« Posted 2012-10-25 08:18:36 »

Excelsior JET for 10 bucks ? AND its charity ? I'm in.
Normally its like TWO THOUSAND dollars.
So obviously I got the double pack.

Quote
For your $10, you get a single-user perpetual Excelsior JET, Standard Edition license for the platform of your choice (Windows or Linux), commercial use permitted. The delivery is electronic.

Support is not included

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-10-25 10:32:32 »

Let me just add that JET really is good.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-10-25 11:19:27 »

Let me just add that JET really is good.

I dont really get the differences in versions, not that I could afford another one. But with this I can sell games, so... what more could you want but maybe support ? =D

Also do you actively use JET at the moment ? I know you have some experience with it, but are your latest games all native compiled, and if not why ?

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-10-25 12:47:47 »

Historical reasons.

When I first started out Java games development I got the full JET with JetPerfect and everything. I got the entire Alien Flux game demo down to just a 5mb download using JetPerfect. Not only was it significantly faster than the Sun 1.4.2 Server VM at the time (I had to resort to using fixed point arithmetic in Alien Flux to get it to run at 60FPS on a 450MHz rig), it started in the blink of an eye like a "proper" C++ application. Back in the day, the 6-7mb saving over shipping an embedded JRE was significant enough to have a fairly large effect on the number of successfully completed downloads (because much of the world was still using 56k modems in 2003, believe it or not)

Anyway: I spent a lot of money on JET tools thinking Alien Flux would make it back in a few weeks on sale.

It turns out indie game development is a bitter, harsh path, littered with the corpses of failed developers. Alien Flux never even made a profit let alone paid for all the things I bought to make it and release it. I was broke from that point onwards having blown what amounted to my life's savings on developing the game so I scaled back my ambitions and tried to keep life simple for myself, so I got a job and did game development in my spare time, of which there was very little. Jet does add an extra layer of complexity to deployment; after you're satisfied it works in a JRE build, you need to do a JET build. At the time, also, JET was only available for Windows, and I needed to deploy on Mac and Linux which both used JREs. So I made the fairly straightforward decision to save myself time, and money, and complexity, and stop using JET.

In the meantime the landscape changed. DSL became suddenly commonplace by about 2005. Indie gaming took off a short while later. Computers just got incredibly powerful. I still didn't have any money or time, until 2010.

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd
« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-10-25 13:40:36 »

When I first started out Java games development I got the full JET with JetPerfect and everything. I got the entire Alien Flux game demo down to just a 5mb download using JetPerfect. Not only was it significantly faster than the Sun 1.4.2 Server VM at the time (I had to resort to using fixed point arithmetic in Alien Flux to get it to run at 60FPS on a 450MHz rig), it started in the blink of an eye like a "proper" C++ application.
How much faster than the server VM is it today? It might be worth those 10 bucks... =S I mean, charity AND more particles!

Myomyomyo.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-10-25 15:15:12 »

The $10 version doesn't include the JetPerfect part I don't think. If that bit exists any more, not really sure.

(JetPerfect produces an entirely, completely, standalone .exe with only the actual code you use. Normally JET is deployed as a bunch of pretty large .dlls which comprise the JVM, and your .exe with all the compiled code in it that you point it at, regardless of whether it's used or not)

Cas Smiley

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-10-25 15:46:51 »

May I ask how this can help me in the context of indie game development? I understand from reading Cas' posts, that it might be deployment? Can anyone fill me in on the details?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-10-25 15:52:16 »

It'll help you in the sense that it's got much, much faster startup, potentially involves less dependency, and for what it's worth, it completely obfuscates your code so that trivial Java hackeroos can't monkey with it (though IMHO that's genuinely worthless for the likes of us).

Cas Smiley

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-10-25 15:57:53 »

It'll help you in the sense that it's got much, much faster startup, potentially involves less dependency, and for what it's worth, it completely obfuscates your code so that trivial Java hackeroos can't monkey with it (though IMHO that's genuinely worthless for the likes of us).

Cas Smiley

Awesome. Not tricks?
How much tom follery is needed to deploy with this then, and what does it even spit out? An executable jar? .exe?

EDIT: Never mind me. I found the FAQ on the site, and it seems to be geared towards the like of me. It spits out an exe. Awesome.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-10-25 16:12:04 »

Well, I did say it was good Smiley Think I might have a quick go on it myself.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline deathpat
« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-10-25 16:49:51 »

hmm this sounds good, thanks for the information ! I'll get the windows+linux pack as well Wink
.. too bad there is no mac support

work in progress : D A E D A L U S
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-10-25 17:09:03 »

I just built Revenge of the Titans using the $10 Windows tool.

Result: Revenge of the Titans works Smiley Approximate size on disk is actually pretty much identical to the version I currently ship with the embedded Java 7 server JRE in it. Am now extremely tempted to look at Pro license to get the JetPerfect part and optimise it. Hmmm.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-10-25 17:22:01 »

I just built Revenge of the Titans using the $10 Windows tool.

Result: Revenge of the Titans works Smiley Approximate size on disk is actually pretty much identical to the version I currently ship with the embedded Java 7 server JRE in it. Am now extremely tempted to look at Pro license to get the JetPerfect part and optimise it. Hmmm.

Cas Smiley

It's working! Wink  Cheesy

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-10-25 19:34:45 »

Result: Revenge of the Titans works Smiley Approximate size on disk is actually pretty much identical to the version I currently ship with the embedded Java 7 server JRE in it.

Is compared to your custom stripped JRE or just the vanilla Java 7 server JRE?

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-10-25 20:45:43 »

I just built Revenge of the Titans using the $10 Windows tool.

Result: Revenge of the Titans works Smiley Approximate size on disk is actually pretty much identical to the version I currently ship with the embedded Java 7 server JRE in it. Am now extremely tempted to look at Pro license to get the JetPerfect part and optimise it. Hmmm.

Cas Smiley

Any performance numbers?
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 145
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-10-25 21:36:12 »

Just bought the $20 win/linux. Don't know if I need it, but I like Excelsior. I bought and used xFunction years ago, before JNA. It was good software and Excelsior gave great support. I signed an NDA and they gave me their source, which helped a lot integrating into my app.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-10-25 21:41:24 »

No perceptible difference in performance, particularly. It runs at 60fps, what more can I say Smiley Size comparison is of the installed directory disk space usage.

Cas Smiley

Offline Gjallar

JGO Coder


Medals: 13
Projects: 1


Follower of Nurgle


« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-10-25 21:55:59 »

Hmm, should a (for now) hobby programmer buy this? I guess I wont need it in the near future but 10 instead of 1k$ seems like quite the deal.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-10-25 22:03:16 »

Yes, you should, if only to experiment. It's for charity!

Cas Smiley

Offline deathpat
« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-10-25 22:10:28 »

I tried it on daedalus
After resolving some tricky issues, I managed to have daedalus running and fully functionnal.

Concerning the size, it's pretty interesting : the exe is only 9 Mb in my case, add to this 1 Mb of natives + 20Mb of resources, the result is 30 Mb for the whole game ... compared to 28 Mb for the executable jar ( meaning without the jvm ... Smiley ).

For the performance, I ran daedalus without vsync and without FPS limit. I ran a particular case where I know that I'm CPU limited and got better results with the JVM (1.6) ... this has to be taken carrefully as I'm testing ingame so the context might be a bit different between two runs ...
My test was to have 16 bots playing in a very small map ... generating a lot of blood Smiley I was looking at the time taken to compute a frame with about 2500 alive blood particles. With the JVM it was 9/10 ms and with the exe it was more 12ms.
So I'm a bit disapointed here Smiley

Then concerning the time to run the application, it is a bit faster with the exe but not much: about 500ms on a total load time of 5 seconds ... so not much Smiley

So at the end, the only gain here for me is the reduced size on disk, and the obfuscated code. The size is not really important for my game, as it should be quite big at the end, so the embedded JVM will not represent 90% of the size Smiley

I don't know if I'll be using it for daedalus, I'm already using launch4j to generate an exe which is working quite well ...
But for a small game I think it could be quite cool .. particularly for the size of the exe Smiley

EDIT :

Yes, you should, if only to experiment. It's for charity!

I fully agree Smiley

Also I forgot but it seems that this software can generate an installer as well ... making it even more interesting

work in progress : D A E D A L U S
Offline Cero
« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-10-25 23:04:26 »

well its definitely cool for small games
my game Black Nebula is ~50mb as a windows installer, packaging a private jre
native its 8MB
Also you completely bypass java at this point, which can have advantages.
And its also fundamentally satisfying somehow to have native code...
ESPECIALLY if the linux version runs reliably.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-10-25 23:40:51 »

Not so fast, cowboy, you've forgotten to ship the Jet VM in that zip.

Cas Smiley

Offline deathpat
« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-10-25 23:48:55 »

Not so fast, cowboy, you've forgotten to ship the Jet VM in that zip.

Cas Smiley
oh ok so finally it may not be so interesting for the size ... I though that everything was integrated in the exe Sad

work in progress : D A E D A L U S
Online EgonOlsen
« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-10-26 00:01:12 »

Nice offering. I gave it a try on good old but still quite popular Robombs...works fine, so i can finally offer a simple installer for people who prefer that: http://jpct.de/download/robombs-setup.exe

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 74
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-10-26 00:18:05 »

Excelsior JET is nice however the power of modern PC's, Java VM's and the faster internet connections make it less useful than it once was. If they added support for producing executables that could run on Android/iOS, now that would be super cool and could give them another nice little niche market to sell to.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-10-26 00:38:19 »

I've talked to Dmitry about ARM but the long and the short of it is, they'd love to do ARM but firstly they've got no actual dedicated skill/resource/money to do it yet, though it's on their hitlist, and secondly, they have to get a special license as I understand it to deploy to mobile devices. I've hassled him at length to produce an ARM headless only "dll" builder that could be bootstrapped by Android or iOS Smiley Though actually right now I'd rather like them to get a Mac OS port done instead. But that's again, a lot of work to support headful stuff, requires a license from Oracle, etc.

Cas Smiley

Offline tberthel
« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-10-26 03:51:26 »

I picked the $20 dollar deal.

While I am using Avian to solve the problems I would have used JET for I just could not pass up the deal just to compare and evaluate possibilities for future products that I will deploy.

Offline DrHalfway
« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-10-26 09:58:06 »

Also picked it up, seems like too good of a deal to pass up, even if I don't use it now, might need it later on.

Offline dleskov

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-10-26 10:12:32 »

Dmitry Leskov from Excelsior here.

Just to clear things up a bit:

JetPerfect is long gone, for two reasons - it was not JCK compliant, and its aggressiveness often made it extremely error-prone (the tipping point was an SWT application failing because it was compiled on a machine with a clickwheel-less mouse and JetPerfect had stripped the clickwheel-handling logic off the EXE! Smiley )

We have since created a replacement technology that we call Java Runtime Slim-Down, which does not have the above issues. With it, I was recently able to bring the JavaFX 2 Ensemble demo down to a 19MB standalone download (i.e. a single installer that does not need the JRE nor the JavaFX Runtime pre-installed.)

The only caveat in the context of this thread is that Java Runtime Slim-Down is only available in the Pro Edition and up. But:


If you have further questions, you can reach me at dleskov (at) excelsior-usa.com.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-10-26 11:08:32 »

Hi Dmitry! You really should make more of a song-and-dance about these features like free Pro licenses and small biz discounts!

Interesting that you brought up the JetPerfect issue there - I had no end of trouble for exactly those reasons. What got me was frequently small issues with different locales and so on; I released a fair few "dud" Alien Fluxes. It was one of the reasons I eventually gave up back in the day and switched to using an embedded JRE. Slimdown seems like a much more sensible tradeoff in space for complexity and reliability.

But yeah... Mac OS port, pretty please  Kiss Kiss Kiss

Cas Smiley

Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

Riven (7 views)
2014-07-29 12:53:52

Dwinin (7 views)
2014-07-29 10:59:34

E.R. Fleming (23 views)
2014-07-29 03:07:13

E.R. Fleming (9 views)
2014-07-29 03:06:25

pw (39 views)
2014-07-24 01:59:36

Riven (39 views)
2014-07-23 21:16:32

Riven (26 views)
2014-07-23 21:07:15

Riven (28 views)
2014-07-23 20:56:16

ctomni231 (59 views)
2014-07-18 06:55:21

Zero Volt (51 views)
2014-07-17 23:47:54
HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 03:59:08

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:58:24

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:47:22

How do I start Java Game Development?
by ra4king
2014-05-17 11:13:37

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-15 09:59:54

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-06 15:03:10

Escape Analysis
by Roquen
2014-04-29 22:16:43

Experimental Toys
by Roquen
2014-04-28 13:24:22
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!