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Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #60 - Posted 2012-10-29 11:19:59 »

I'm gonna try something that's never been tried before on a internet forum...

[size=18pt]EVERYBODY wins the argument![/size]

Smiley

But, I agree, compiled languages are not vanishing any time soon, nor did I claim so. But javascript/html5 can enable you to do amazing things, there's nothing to stop it from being huge.

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Offline nsigma
« Reply #61 - Posted 2012-10-29 11:32:39 »

C# is, in fact, available on iOS, Playstation, XBox, every desktop OS, in fact, just everywhere,

OK, overblown comment!  Smiley  This is the bit I object to, because it's not really a common ubiquitous platform available everywhere.  You've got different distribution forms (fully compiled / bytecode) and different available API's.  It's not really that much above what is achievable now with Java (language), though admittedly the toolset looks like it makes it a nicer process!

is a hugely compelling argument. For the game devs amongst us, Unity and MonoTouch are incredible bits of tech. These are all places Java should have been 5 years ago but due to colossal mismanagement it never happened.

No arguments with any of that!  Wink

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #62 - Posted 2012-10-29 11:46:26 »

I was sorta hoping Android solved it finally and then they went and made their wretchedly slow and rubbish Dalvik VM instead. Argh.

Cas Smiley

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Offline Joshua Waring

Senior Member


Medals: 4
Projects: 2



« Reply #63 - Posted 2012-10-29 11:53:59 »

When I was first learning C++, I didn't get very far, firstly because I lost interest and secondly because I couldn't get pack the fact that you had to declare functions before you used them and I'd always get to a situation of using Function that calls a function in such a situation where It couldn't be declared before that function due to dependencies on that function. (I was young)
but Java makes it so easy by not caring where the hell you put the Methods, if it exists, you can call it!

I was sorta hoping Android solved it finally and then they went and made their wretchedly slow and rubbish Dalvik VM instead. Argh.

Cas Smiley
2 - 3 x slower infact (wiki)

The world is big, so learn it in small bytes.
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #64 - Posted 2012-10-29 12:04:13 »

Yeah the Sun/Oracle JVM also wasn't that fast when it was just created all those many years ago (in fact it was dead slow). It takes time to develop such a monstrous piece of technology. Of course the question that will keep people from making peace with that is: why do we have to wait for that -yet again-?

I wish Google good luck developing their own VM; its an effort, money drain and responsibility that wouldn't have been necessary.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #65 - Posted 2012-10-29 13:10:33 »

I wish Google good luck developing their own VM; its an effort, money drain and responsibility that wouldn't have been necessary.

Never understood why they didn't just hack OpenJDK to pieces and derive Android from that (yes, I know development actually started earlier, but it could have been re-based, surely?).

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline gimbal

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Medals: 25



« Reply #66 - Posted 2012-10-29 13:23:58 »

I wish Google good luck developing their own VM; its an effort, money drain and responsibility that wouldn't have been necessary.

Never understood why they didn't just hack OpenJDK to pieces and derive Android from that (yes, I know development actually started earlier, but it could have been re-based, surely?).

Well most of the legal issues they're having with Oracle is because they allegedly copied code, right? They would have had to license Java to make that legal for commercial purposes methinks, something they clearly did not want to do.
Offline matheus23

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Medals: 106
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« Reply #67 - Posted 2012-10-29 13:28:17 »

But, I agree, compiled languages are not vanishing any time soon, nor did I claim so. But javascript/html5 can enable you to do amazing things, there's nothing to stop it from being huge.
Oh... the really slow Canvas stuff on linux with Chrome stops me from doing amazing things :/

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Offline badlogicgames
« Reply #68 - Posted 2012-10-29 13:36:24 »

i guess you are switching to mono?

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Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #69 - Posted 2012-10-29 13:38:30 »

The fact that it's very slightly suboptimal compared to Java versus the fact that C# is, in fact, available on iOS, Playstation, XBox, every desktop OS, in fact, just everywhere, is a hugely compelling argument. For the game devs amongst us, Unity and MonoTouch are incredible bits of tech. These are all places Java should have been 5 years ago but due to colossal mismanagement it never happened.

There are some major caveats to what you are saying:

- For Win/Mac/Linux desktop apps, C# is more like C++ where, yes, the language exists on all platforms, but tons of functionality require OS native APIs and must be completely rewritten for each OS, and it's very hard to keep OS specific code separate from cross platform code so that you can fully reuse the latter. OTOH, Mono support for Google NaCl (native client) really does look like a truly cross platform win.

- For MonoTouch, there are similar products using the Java language like J2ObjC. Have you actually used either of these? Again, you have the issue that any code that touches the GUI or any OS feature must be completely rewritten for different OSs. Additionally, you are adding a substantial piece of complexity to your development tool chain. Thirdly, it's quite expensive and the trial version doesn't let you run anything outside of an emulator.

- C# only runs on PlayStation Vita devices through the PlayStation Mobile program. You can't use C# in any major toolchain to make a regular PS3 or Vita app that uses the full power of the hardware. This is still a major coup on Xamarin's part to win an exclusive contract like this.

- For your Dalvik complaints, I've seen serious papers showing Dalvik generally running more slowly than the NDK and RenderScript toolchains (http://people.apache.org/~xli/papers/applc2012-android-programming-models.pdf). For MonoDroid, I've read the Xamarin team's benchmarks, I see that they are cherry picking results, and won't let you do your own benchmarks unless you buy a full license. I would bet money that a full benchmark suite run by a neutral party would show a much different picture.

- On desktop benchmarks, JVM runs faster than Microsoft .NET and both run much, much faster than Mono based on personal benchmarks as well as benchmarks from http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/

- At a language level, Scala is *way* better and more elegant than C#/Java with better runtime performance than Java.

- The fundamental mission and purpose of Xamarin team is to spread Microsoft technologies and convert non-believers. It's not like they have some politically neutral technology that happens to fit Microsoft tech. Their entire reason for existance is to advance adoption of any technology that flies the Microsoft banner. Personally, that mission doesn't resonate with me.

That being said Xamarin has achieved great success with cross platform VM technology. No one in the Java space seems to have even tried.

It's pretty sad state, when one of the few Java game devs is a die hard Mono fan.

The valid technical problems with Java are that: it doesn't run on NaCl and PlayStation Vita. iOS story is poor. Dalvik performance may be poor. Is Java OpenGL significantly behind that of C?

Beyond that, I think JVM game development hasn't taken off due to image and culture issues. The guys who are Scala fanatics aren't the types of people who want to write games.
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Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #70 - Posted 2012-10-29 13:52:04 »

Problem is, Javascript is just plain shit for anything other than trinkets in browsers. Shit to code for, shit to use, shit to look at, shit to maintain. The tools are still shit despite having, hmm, 15 years to become good. Performance is - yes really - still shit. The JSVMs have come along in leaps and bounds and are now probably the most amazing turd polishing machines the world has yet seen.

ALL web applications are appalling to use versus any natively deployed application. Even using GMail is awful. Dare I say shit.

This is extremely childish.

Have you even seen the stuff being done with JavaScript + WebGL?

The fact that such large numbers of regular people prefer GMail to a desktop email client and prefer Google Docs to a desktop spreadsheet speaks a lot. Your dimissal of these successes sounds more like some personal emotional quirk.

From a language perspective, I don't like the weak typing and the Prototype inheritance system and the lack of a proper modularity story and the lack of the modern niceties you find in the post-C era languages. But the VMs are doing awesome things and improving and practically you can't beat the universal nature of the runtimes. And WebGL reoslves many performance bottlenecks for game type apps.
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #71 - Posted 2012-10-29 14:05:46 »

For the moment there's zero reason to change from C++.

Sure there is... There are better more elegant languages that let you think and express your program's logic at a higher level. I used to be a C++ guru, btw.

There is HUGE buzz behind Scala and legitimate reason for it. Companies like twitter and tumblr did major migrations to Scala for very good reasons.

This attitude of "I will cling to whatever legacy tool has maintained popularity" is lame. I understand newbies, need somewhere to start. But if you are an independent hobbyist, you should be attempting to blaze new trails not cling to the legacy ways of the past.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #72 - Posted 2012-10-29 14:11:48 »

Well most of the legal issues they're having with Oracle is because they allegedly copied code, right? They would have had to license Java to make that legal for commercial purposes methinks, something they clearly did not want to do.

That's just not true.  OpenJDK is GPL w/CPE - you can use it in a commercial product just fine.  Google already gives the core of Android away under Apache licence anyway, so there's not much difference there.  The idea that the GPL would have been less commercially acceptable doesn't really stack up to me - Android has GPL code in it anyway (kernel!).  Having an OpenJDK based core wouldn't have stopped them or others writing commercial extensions.  And the GPL has no field of use restrictions and (even in v2) an implicit patent grant, so less chance of stupid lawsuits.  Hence my original point!

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #73 - Posted 2012-10-29 14:20:32 »

Why did I choose Java? because others are not good for me. I dislike js, yet many android-ios app built on it. Even unity too!

I did tried once to learn C in past. Once.

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #74 - Posted 2012-10-29 14:42:33 »

Problem is, Javascript is just plain shit for anything other than trinkets in browsers. Shit to code for, shit to use, shit to look at, shit to maintain. The tools are still shit despite having, hmm, 15 years to become good. Performance is - yes really - still shit. The JSVMs have come along in leaps and bounds and are now probably the most amazing turd polishing machines the world has yet seen.

ALL web applications are appalling to use versus any natively deployed application. Even using GMail is awful. Dare I say shit.
This is extremely childish.

Have you even seen the stuff being done with JavaScript + WebGL?

The fact that such large numbers of regular people prefer GMail to a desktop email client and prefer Google Docs to a desktop spreadsheet speaks a lot. Your dimissal of these successes sounds more like some personal emotional quirk.
http://www.revengeofthetitans.com

We made that. It took a year to do what would have taken maybe 3 months in Java. It barely runs anywhere reliably, and only on the very latest tech. We are at the mercy of every single incremental update from every single browser vendor on every single operating system breaking it at every single opportunity. It is not a particularly complex application.

I'm really not being childish: this is my perspective both as a developer, and a user. Every single HTML "application" I've used is a crippled, slow, bugridden monstrosity, which laughable failure tolerance. Just the other day, Amazon management console mysteriously "broke" on Chrome, when I needed it to work. I had to install Firefox to make it work again. It's back working now in Chrome today, mysteriously. That kind of crap is just not on.

WebGL: my ultra-reliable system regularly crashes with WebGL when using Google Maps and it reverts me back to the standard interface (which, er, I couldn't really point you at any differences anyway).

GMail: as used by the masses that simply don't know any better. Eg. Thunderbird, or Opera Mail (which is what I use though it now has some very annoying quirks with GMail). Just try really interacting with mail in GMail. You know, shift-selecting a bunch of messages and dragging them somewhere, that sort of stuff. All those useful interface paradigms are broken in HTML5. Ctrl-A helpfully selects the entire HTML document instead of, say, all the messages in the list. And so on.

Cas Smiley

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #75 - Posted 2012-10-29 14:48:09 »

Oh and have no fear, I don't want to go near C# or mono. My praises for C# revolve around how some open source loon has managed to basically get C# everywhere and a massive and thriving ecosystem has flourished on the back of it, whereas Java is stuck doing sweaty labour in the basement of the server room because no-one in charge wanted to see its potential everywhere else. Sad.

As it is I have a huge legacy of teetering code in Java which I am not about to attempt to port to C#. What I have suits me in all respects except for the inability to make iOS games without learning a new programming language and I really can't be bothered learning something new when Java does everything I could ever need of a language and is slowly drip-fed new features at a rate which my tiny brain can actually assimilate them.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #76 - Posted 2012-10-29 15:38:06 »

Even using GMail is awful. Dare I say shit.

This.
I use Thunderbird which is great.
Using the Gmail Browser app feels like this:

Offline nsigma
« Reply #77 - Posted 2012-10-29 15:46:18 »


Funnily enough, I find myself using / preferring GMail to Thunderbird more and more these days.

It just goes to show there are 10 kinds of people in this world!  Grin

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Cero
« Reply #78 - Posted 2012-10-29 15:48:41 »

Well I have also multiple email accounts, so that wouldnt even work.

Offline nsigma
« Reply #79 - Posted 2012-10-29 15:50:14 »

Well I have also multiple email accounts, so that wouldnt even work.

Really?  So do I, and it works fine. 

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #80 - Posted 2012-10-29 16:01:29 »

Well most of the legal issues they're having with Oracle is because they allegedly copied code, right? They would have had to license Java to make that legal for commercial purposes methinks, something they clearly did not want to do.

That's just not true.  OpenJDK is GPL w/CPE - you can use it in a commercial product just fine.  Google already gives the core of Android away under Apache licence anyway, so there's not much difference there.  The idea that the GPL would have been less commercially acceptable doesn't really stack up to me - Android has GPL code in it anyway (kernel!).  Having an OpenJDK based core wouldn't have stopped them or others writing commercial extensions.  And the GPL has no field of use restrictions and (even in v2) an implicit patent grant, so less chance of stupid lawsuits.  Hence my original point!

Right, I'll just go stand over there ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->.
Offline Cero
« Reply #81 - Posted 2012-10-29 19:32:44 »

Well I have also multiple email accounts, so that wouldnt even work.

Really?  So do I, and it works fine. 

Well some of them are non gmail, and I have to use those SMTPs also, so no =P
Also I don't know if you can even connect 2 google accounts - you're not really supposed to have more than 1 =0

Offline nsigma
« Reply #82 - Posted 2012-10-29 19:41:35 »

Well I have also multiple email accounts, so that wouldnt even work.

Really?  So do I, and it works fine. 

Well some of them are non gmail, and I have to use those SMTPs also, so no =P
Also I don't know if you can even connect 2 google accounts - you're not really supposed to have more than 1 =0

Getting really OT now!  Wink  Pretty much doable.  You're allowed two accounts, too, as they allow you to sign in to more than one at the same time.  Does mean that I no longer have any privacy, though, but I live in the UK so that's just an illusion anyway!  Grin

Time to shut up about GMail now.  Ruining all my earlier arguments against JavaScript.  *woot* Java Rocks!!! *woot*  Cool

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #83 - Posted 2012-10-29 20:04:03 »

Email is only email, mostly crap anyway. Why you need some super advanced application like Thunderbird that sits on one PC is beyond me, most just read their email or send some email, and don't receive a lot anyway.

I used to use thunderbird in the past, eudora before that. But it really got annoying to use because you had to set it up every time you got a new PC, reinstalled Windows or whatever. Deferring that email annoyance to the web is a big saver.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #84 - Posted 2012-10-29 20:08:43 »

Email is only email, mostly crap anyway. Why you need some super advanced application like Thunderbird that sits on one PC is beyond me, most just read their email or send some email, and don't receive a lot anyway.

I used to use thunderbird in the past, eudora before that. But it really got annoying to use because you had to set it up every time you got a new PC, reinstalled Windows or whatever. Deferring that email annoyance to the web is a big saver.
I have a lot of email...

Anyway, it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Could I make Revenge of the Titans in Javascript and HTML5 with WebGL? No. It'd be horribly slow, take me 4x as long to develop anyway, and work on only a tiny fraction of the devices upon which it is supposedly supposed to be able to work. Anything nontrivial just spirals out of control in javascript and browser tech.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #85 - Posted 2012-10-29 20:18:46 »

But, I agree, compiled languages are not vanishing any time soon, nor did I claim so. But javascript/html5 can enable you to do amazing things, there's nothing to stop it from being huge.
I agree with matheus23. WebGL implementations use FBOs; if you don't have a nice support of this feature, it doesn't work or it is unbearably slow, just face it and lots of Intel chips in lots of laptops badly support it, tons of drivers are simply blacklisted. HTML5 canvas is too slow even though its performance is less bad than some months ago.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #86 - Posted 2012-10-29 20:25:51 »

And already, javascript is the most used programming language in the world.
I'm in the wrong place, I thought I were on java-gaming.org but I'm in javascript-gaming.org  Huh

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #87 - Posted 2012-10-29 20:35:47 »

That most-used argument is a fallacy. You could equally say that C++ is the most used language in the world because that's what Javascript is built with. Or that it's ARM machine code because there are more ARM chips running code right now than anything else. Etc.

Cas Smiley

Offline Grunnt

JGO Wizard


Medals: 66
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #88 - Posted 2012-10-29 21:06:33 »

If the majority of the people in the world would build their houses of dog poo mixed with straw that would not mean that bricks wouldn't be better.

I think.

Offline matheus23

JGO Kernel


Medals: 106
Projects: 3


You think about my Avatar right now!


« Reply #89 - Posted 2012-10-29 21:09:28 »

That most-used argument is a fallacy. You could equally say that C++ is the most used language in the world because that's what Javascript is built with. Or that it's ARM machine code because there are more ARM chips running code right now than anything else. Etc.

Cas Smiley
I agree, I've already heard people saying "Java is the most used language", even if java was made in C++... ?
One could argument, that the most lines were written in Java, what I doubt.
(And Mr. caspian is just right about the ARM chips, btw, did you know ever your USB-Stick has an ARM-processor in it? Ever your Bluetooth stick has one)

So let's just say: Bit's are the most used code visualization.

Anyways:
I can't find the link anymore, but I know that the V8 Engine is actually very fast and only about twice slower than native C code.
I think the bad thing about Javascript, and a bad thing about (imo) every language is the un-type...thing... (sorry my english is weak at this point). Even a friend of mine, who loved and still loves scheme and lisp for years, now has to admit, that declerating types wouldn't be too bad...
When I think about the problems I had with Javascript I think about trying to access arrays (= "Hash"-Map, Stack (Deque), whatever, btw) with an indice actually being a double. It returned "undefined". Yeah... No errors... just code, which doesn't work. :/
I'd say that javascript is pretty nice if you write things, which are about 1k to 3k lines. For bigger projects you simply need more "scrict" stuff. Just like java has it's classes, and there aren't the jQuery AND MooTools class implementation hanging around for the guys, who actually hate prototype based stuff and want class systems.
And yeah. I think I should have moved on to WebGL, but I already got back to java with LWJGL with a Game Of Life simulation program, which works 200 times faster than the Javascript-Canvas stuff... (And I benchmarked it. It's the Canvas' fault.)

Anyways. My 2 cents in a very bad structured post.

See my:
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