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  Making a custom game engine vs libGDX  (Read 19099 times)
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Offline vaishnavsm

Junior Newbie





« Posted 2012-08-27 13:53:17 »

I want to make games in java...

So, to start off with, I took a look at the different libraries I could use.
LibGDX interested me, so I took a look at the documentation, tutos, etc.

Most of the tutorials were *REALLY* old, and there is a book which still seems to use the older libGDX interfaces.

So i decided to make my own engine, but considering the difficulty of this, I decided to ask here first.

I have an infinite Time Period (until i die, anyway)

So, any comments...

Also some tutos on writing game engines would be nice...

EDIT: I also want to make the engine out of LWJGL,
so I can start off 2D, and later add 3D as well...
Offline Cero
« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-08-27 14:15:39 »

libGDX is really good, really fast, ports to many platforms with incredible ease and is also easy to use.
many many many tutorials are in fact deprecated - but overall the techniques are the same and its just easy.

I mean I dont use aaall features, you can still do thinks on your own even when using libgdx...

Offline Nyhm

Senior Member


Medals: 3
Projects: 1


Island Forge


« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-08-27 14:27:18 »

I did a pure Java2D/Swing custom engine from scratch for Island Forge. I don't recommend this route. It's hard to make Swing behave and perform well in this regard. I haven't had time to get into the other graphic libraries, but from what I've seen here in the JGO Showcase, it would be well worth the time to learn libGDX/LWJGL.

On the other hand, if you want to increase your Swing-savvy for non-game projects, consider trying that first. If you learn to properly drive/render a game in Swing, you'll become well-versed in the intricacies of the Swing architecture. Best wishes!

Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline 65K
« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-08-27 14:40:06 »

Documentation of LibGdx is limited and I don't like everything I came across so far.
But with hardly any knowledge about OpenGL and minimal docs I was able to switch my game client from Java2D to LibGdx. Just yesterday I tinkered with the included particle editor and got a good result with ease. Very nice.
To be recommended.

Writing game engine or frameworks are the hardest tasks generally which I wouldn't recommend to try without several years of practice working full time as software developer.

I want to make games in java...
Then just do exactly that and grab something ready to use...

Offline vaishnavsm

Junior Newbie





« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-08-27 16:07:17 »

My choice is either LWJGL or libGDX...
I only want to make a Game Engine for my use....
Also, i am quite good at Swing, eventhandlers, etc, but I preffer using lwjgl over java2d, because I want to do 3d afterwards...
Offline davedes
« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-08-27 17:05:03 »

Usually you should just use LibGDX -- in fact I would suggest using "low-level LibGDX" over LWJGL even if you want to build your engine from the ground up. Ultimately LibGDX is just a thin OpenGL ES wrapper with some added functionality.

I can only think of a few reasons for using LWJGL over LibGDX:

- If you want to build an engine around a JVM language like Scala, Kotlin or Fantom
- If you want to build an engine targeting specific features (e.g. geometry shaders, tessellation, instancing, etc)
- If you want to build a utility library without the dependency of an entire platform (e.g. SlickUtil, YUNPM, etc)
- If you want to learn by reinventing the wheel

Offline gouessej
« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-08-27 17:10:31 »

Hi

LibGDX/JOGL is a good option. I spent several years in writing my own 3D engine, I learned a lot of things but I don't recommend this route. It is a pure waste of time if you're not patient, it is only interesting for pedagogical purposes, there are a few chances that you will write the next "big thing" alone.

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-08-27 17:34:35 »

I suppose the question is, do you want to write a game or an engine?  If you haven't written any games, you probably don't have the requisite experience to write an engine.
Offline ags1

JGO Ninja


Medals: 62
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


Make code not war!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-08-27 19:40:17 »

A game engine is just reusable code. You can't invent reusable code - it has to be extracted/derived from one or two actually working games. Don't write game engines, write games.

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-08-27 20:15:31 »

Nope. Use what we have. That's how humanity got so far, and that's how we'll progress.

Well, under Linux. Roll Eyes No! We'll make our own solution to every problem presented! I give you: Objective-C. Jesus Christ on the cross.

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Offline vaishnavsm

Junior Newbie





« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-08-28 12:37:50 »

Quote
- If you want to learn by reinventing the wheel

Yep, I want to do that..
Well more like making A new wheel  Grin
Offline Roquen
« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-08-28 12:49:41 »

IHMO: You're better off learning how to roll a wheel and the properties of various kinds of existing wheels before running off and attempting to create a better one...otherwise you're likely to end up with a 1/3 completed, 20 ton wheel that's square.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-08-28 12:51:55 »

But then you can go on to figure out what went wrong, and make a heavier wheel, with MOAR CORNERS!

Cas Smiley

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-08-28 13:45:27 »

I really agree that libgdx isn't well documented. It's changing rapidly. Even until now I can't deploy the applet on version 0.9.6 with same code that I use on previous version of the lib. Mostly because all tutorials are for older version and the writter didn't update it. However among that olds, I recommence this.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-08-28 18:03:26 »

Quote
- If you want to learn by reinventing the wheel

Yep, I want to do that..
Well more like making A new wheel  Grin
I have worked some years on a few new wheels. You can do that if you're really knowledgeable in maths and algorithmic, it's a big challenge.

Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 147
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-08-29 01:37:59 »

libgdx has TONS of documentation that is up to date.
You guys are killing me. We have...
So, please, stop the insanity! You still have to put in some effort to learn the library, but there is a wide range of ways for you to learn and get help.

It is true there are some third party tutorials that are out of date. Likely they can still be useful, otherwise there should be plenty of material on the official site that is not out of date to keep you busy.

Sure, not every single thing is documented, but a large amount is and for that which isn't, you have the forums, IRC, example code, and the library source at your disposal. We opened up documentation to the world and saw an unsurprising influx of almost no one who wanted to write anything. So, before you complain, consider writing some documentation yourself.

Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 131
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-08-29 02:00:41 »

I think that link to the video tutorials is outdated(just started learning libGDX.)
'Cuz it uses JOGLApplication, but the nightlies ship with LWJGL stuff. Maybe you can download it separately, I don't know
Don't yell at me, I'm a noob   Roll Eyes
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-08-29 02:17:52 »

So, before you complain, consider writing some documentation yourself.

People looking for documentation are supposed to write it? 

I don't think it's that poorly documented, really, though it does have some rough spots, like scene2d.  Still, between the samples and tests, it wasn't really that hard to figure things out.

Offline Geemili

Senior Member


Medals: 9
Projects: 1
Exp: 2 years


No Games Finished


« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-08-29 02:25:58 »

They are actually decaprecating the JOGL backend. I think it's because LWJGL gives you the ability to ship as an applet.
Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 131
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-08-29 02:46:20 »

Ah yes, that's what I thought.
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 147
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-08-29 08:15:45 »

Don't yell at me, I'm a noob   Roll Eyes
No worries, I shout at everyone. Wink My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular.

People looking for documentation are supposed to write it? 
Yes. Figure it out and write documentation for the next guy. Give back to the lib.

Quote from: sproingie
I don't think it's that poorly documented, really, though it does have some rough spots, like scene2d. 
scene2d should be nice and clean. What part of scene2d is a rough spot?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-08-29 09:13:03 »

I'm fairly sure that JOGL does applets too. But, you know, ... why bother with two nearly orthogonal bindings to OpenGL.

Well done Sun! Divide and conquer.

Cas Smiley

Offline 65K
« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-08-29 09:15:51 »

So, please, stop the insanity! You still have to put in some effort to learn the library, but there is a wide range of ways for you to learn and get help.
Why not just take the comments about documentation as what they are ? Invaluable feedback about your work.

Please don't fall into the trap of pure knee kerk justification. Listing another 10 points of existing doc wouldn't help if users are telling something different.
I am not a noob either, know what I have to invest and am able to judge things pretty objective. That's why I do recommend using LibGdx.
There are problems in the implementation, things to improve, but calling given feedback as insane lowers the motivation of giving anymore tremendously...
And yes, the UI stuff isn't the clearest.

Offline badlogicgames
« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-08-29 09:31:51 »

I agree that the docs can always be improved. I think we are doing ok compared to other offerings, and once i have more time i'll fill in the missing articles on the wiki. We sadly have no influence on the third party tutorials. That being said, the only aPi that changed is scene2d. What parts of the documentation should we focus on?

Concerning "problems in the implementation": would you care to elaborate in detail. It's hard to improve something just base on that little phrase.

http://www.badlogicgames.com - musings on Android and Java game development
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 147
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-08-29 09:41:40 »

So, please, stop the insanity! You still have to put in some effort to learn the library, but there is a wide range of ways for you to learn and get help.
Why not just take the comments about documentation as what they are ? Invaluable feedback about your work.
Feedback has to be more specific to be useful. There are *lots* of docs that are not outdated. This is my point.

Quote
Please don't fall into the trap of pure knee kerk justification. Listing another 10 points of existing doc wouldn't help if users are telling something different.
I am not a noob either, know what I have to invest and am able to judge things pretty objective. That's why I do recommend using LibGdx.
There are problems in the implementation, things to improve, but calling given feedback as insane lowers the motivation of giving anymore tremendously...
And yes, the UI stuff isn't the clearest.
What about the UI is not clear?

Offline nsigma
« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-08-29 11:30:39 »

Concerning "problems in the implementation": would you care to elaborate in detail. It's hard to improve something just base on that little phrase.

My next project is going to be a telepathic issue queue.  Grin

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline R.D.

Senior Member


Medals: 2
Projects: 1


"For the last time, Hats ARE Awesome"


« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-08-29 11:34:54 »

The only thing I miss in scene2d is an editor for themes. Anything else if simple as apple pie imho. scene2d does exactly what it tell and offers even more. I mean you have a comple action system (you can extend this for an event system so you can script some events and lets them run your story scenes). I love this Cheesy
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-08-29 12:25:21 »

IMHO what the lib really needs is a wiki that can be edited by users, so it'll grow fastly enough to cover the changes. IMHO.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-08-29 18:12:19 »

They are actually decaprecating the JOGL backend. I think it's because LWJGL gives you the ability to ship as an applet.
Of course JOGL supports applets. If there is something wrong in the JOGL backend of LibGDX, it has to be fixed.

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-08-29 18:20:39 »

scene2d should be nice and clean. What part of scene2d is a rough spot?

scene2d itself is a nice clean API.  The documentation is the rough spot.  I figured most of it out from the source.

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