Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (79)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (477)
Games in Android Showcase (106)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (533)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6
  ignore  |  Print  
  Closed for business - Android vs. iOS  (Read 20752 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline jezek2
« Reply #120 - Posted 2012-08-17 03:33:47 »

You basically can't usefully pirate Steam games (because nearly the entire value in Steam games is the fact they're in your Steam account, available anywhere, anytime, anywhen, and linked into your profile with achievements, etc. etc) - and nor can you trade them. So Steam suffers very, very, very little leakage. This is how they can sell AAA titles for £4 in a sale, and they can make a million pounds pure profit in 24 hours.

Except that many games are not tied any specially to Steam. What makes them sell is the small price for limited amount of time (and good exposure for that deal), just like it works for HIB. This has nothing with piracy, just pure business. Also AAA titles are often overpriced, or they're just not that much worth for the individual (like I would buy most AAA games for 5E only, otherwise it's not worth to me, because even when some are good enough to entertain me, it's nothing great, though I don't mind waiting few years for price to fall).

Steam games are pirated, or activated on accounts used solely for that game and then shared or exchanged.

1. The vast majority of users will be on the official server, so fine if you want to play with your 2 cheapskate friends but not if you're playing a game which maybe involves a more interesting and vibrant community. Most of the value is in the fact that the majority reside there. Just look at Facebook vs Google+  Roll Eyes

This works well, though there are exceptions for very popular games. Look at Counter Strike scene, the pirated one is so strong it's total alternative to the official one, they do 'official' leagues and clan matches within it.

2. The illegal servers are painfully easy to find and shut down. If you can be arsed.

Not that easy when it's done as dedicated servers so anyone can run them. Privately, or with some web of trust for bigger community.
Offline Icecore

Senior Member


Medals: 5



« Reply #121 - Posted 2012-08-17 03:49:02 »

Using word ”quality” I mean interesting (about games)
(you can’t say interesting about quality of service Wink)

The more interesting MMO game for customers the more time they spend on it
before go to another more interesting game(According opinion of the customers)

This works well, though there are exceptions for very popular games. Look at Counter Strike scene, the pirated one is so strong it's total alternative to the official one, they do 'official' leagues and clan matches within it.
+starcraft 1, dota(war 3)
"iccup" like example

The irony is that many ppl using it, even have the official version of the game,
and all because there you can find a better opponent than on official servers (quality of service, more interesting)

Offline philfrei
« Reply #122 - Posted 2012-08-17 09:31:55 »

@kaffiene - Thanks for replying, and the clarification.

"Greetings my friends! We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives!" -- The Amazing Criswell
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #123 - Posted 2012-08-17 09:46:04 »

I agree with what Jezek says about Steam's successes, but what I really don't understand - I mentioned it previously - why doesn't the pricing argument work for Android sales?

If Steam makes tonnes of sales when the price is low, why are Android apps selling for a few bucks so often pirated? (I'm assuming that this is true)  That is something I just don't get. 
Offline Roquen
« Reply #124 - Posted 2012-08-17 10:19:30 »

Another interesting example (IHMO) is modo.  When some folks from lightwave left and formed luxology their intent was to create a groundbreaking 3D package that was affordable.  The first version (in my non-digital artist opinion) was freaking awesome and priced at something around 300USD (if my memory serves).  Whatever the price was it was significantly cheaper that updating my version of lightwave would have cost.  Sadly modo was very heavily pirated.  Although there's no reasonable way to estimate the loss in income that piracy caused, it isn't unreasonable to assume that the impact was significant.  Now modo will cost you about 900USD (if you convert from some other art package) or about 1200USD otherwise.  The legal consumer would have very much benefited from them being able to maintain a lower price point and the increased competition that would have caused.  Could that have happened if their product had been less pirated?  We can't know.

Note that (IHMO) talking about reasons software companies fail when discussing piracy is at best a "red herring" and at worst disingenuous (not targeting anyone here).  This isn't to imply that I disagree with what is being said, but the context in which something is said is equally important.

Out of intellectual curiosity can anyone that insists on "illegal copying" vs. "stealing" define what difference is?
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #125 - Posted 2012-08-17 10:47:45 »


Out of intellectual curiosity can anyone that insists on "illegal copying" vs. "stealing" define what difference is?

Stealing a physical object leaves the owner bereft of that object.  Illegal copying does not.



Offline Damocles
« Reply #126 - Posted 2012-08-17 10:54:29 »

stealing is a competition / exclusion problem
copying is a free-rider problem

Offline Roquen
« Reply #127 - Posted 2012-08-17 10:57:01 »

  • I acquire the customer data base of a company that does direct sells.  I sell that to direct competitors.  Stealing or not stealing?
  • Same as previous except I get hookers, drugs and parties instead of cash.  Stealing or not stealing?
  • Same as previous except I did it just for "kicks".  Stealing or not stealing?
  • Repeat the previous three, except I'm giving to non-competing companies.  Stealing or not stealing?
  • Generalize all the previous to the vast majority of industrial espionage.

Don't see any problems here?
Offline Damocles
« Reply #128 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:00:58 »

1 the other company can use the custer base data: they can act as free-riders (no effort to search for customers)

2 A hooker beeing spend time with can not spend time with another one: exclusion problem

3 dooing for the kicks : if you dont give away or use the data, you still cost the company
legal and security consultant costs.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #129 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:22:03 »

This is why the definition of "theft" in law is so specific: it covers only one very, very clearly defined offence. Did you know that in the UK if someone "steals" your car, and they get caught with it, they are not actually charged with "theft" - they are charged with "taking and driving away" (and driving without insurance but that's another story). To be "theft" there has to be a clear and provable intention to deprive the owner of something permanently of it; in this case the thief would have to actually attempt to fence the vehicle, ring it, destroy it, or break it for spares, etc. I believe that most other countries use a similar distinction. Given this, it's impossible to steal something that is copied... except that the law uses the word "theft", not "stealing". Stealing is an ambiguous term which is what causes all these daft arguments over niggly semantics.

The various offences otherwise that Roquen has listed are covered under various other, different, laws.

Let's call copying my games ripping me off. That sounds about right.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Cero
« Reply #130 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:22:52 »

Minecraft proves that if you make a very appealing game, you will make a shit-load of money.
Thats all I need to know.

Offline Damocles
« Reply #131 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:24:54 »

much to its success was that it was easily accessible for people to try it out.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #132 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:26:45 »

I wish people would stop using Minecraft as an example of anything. Please get it into your heads that Minecraft is an utter, total, complete outlier. Damocles is right about why it caught on, but only scratches the surface of the tricks it used.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #133 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:32:47 »

@Cero - what makes successful game is black magic.  Some great games sell like shit and some shit games sell like hotcakes.
@Damocles - again where the entitlement?  Someone makes a product it's up the them to choose if you can "try for free" or not.  It's a stupid move to not do so in some manner but hey that's their choice.
@princec - I'm not really poking for "legal" or "moral" points, but more of language and implied permissiveness that choice of words create.  If someone wants to call it "illegal coping"...whatever, but I'd be nice if everyone that makes a specific choice of terms actually thinks through why their doing so and is that choice internally consistent.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #134 - Posted 2012-08-17 11:58:58 »

It's be nice if the internets were right, but there we go  Cranky

Interesting point raised back there: if prices are so low why is Android piracy so rife versus Steam?

Answer: (my hypothesis)
1. Steam has no refund policy, whatsoever. If you even try a chargeback your entire account is terminated and you lose everything. No comeback.
2. Android has a 24hr refund policy, which unfortunately still leaves you with the .apk which you can copy before refunding.
3. Android users are, shall we say, more tight than iOS users. Piracy isn't the only reason stuff is free on Android - it's also because many many users are too tight to pay for anything in the first place, which is why they have $100 Android phones instead of $300 iPhones.

Cas Smiley

Offline jezek2
« Reply #135 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:05:51 »

Another thought, if some company can't get enough money from selling, maybe they should've invested less into the creation? There must be then some point where it's balanced between quality vs sales/costs.

There are lot of tricks to create something great without need to use big movie-like budgets, and also to get rid of people on payroll who basically don't contribute anything (or even have negative impact) to the project?

Or are there some utterly failed polished indie games out there?
Offline Damocles
« Reply #136 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:21:22 »

People value their products more on Steam.
Its their assets they paided much more for (than 1$ on Adroid) and
associated to their account.
Psychiologically this has this "treasure chest" effect.

On Android it feels like a ranom left basket in the community kitchen.
Lots of questionable free stuff. Take it or leave it.
Why pay money. And when paying 1$ I see it as throw away item that I dont
want to hassle with payment too long.

Also Steam filters the entries a lot, whereas everyone can post stuff in the Android Store.

Offline jezek2
« Reply #137 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:24:09 »

Another interesting example (IHMO) is modo.  When some folks from lightwave left and formed luxology their intent was to create a groundbreaking 3D package that was affordable.  The first version (in my non-digital artist opinion) was freaking awesome and priced at something around 300USD (if my memory serves).  Whatever the price was it was significantly cheaper that updating my version of lightwave would have cost.  Sadly modo was very heavily pirated.  Although there's no reasonable way to estimate the loss in income that piracy caused, it isn't unreasonable to assume that the impact was significant.  Now modo will cost you about 900USD (if you convert from some other art package) or about 1200USD otherwise.  The legal consumer would have very much benefited from them being able to maintain a lower price point and the increased competition that would have caused.  Could that have happened if their product had been less pirated?  We can't know.

Again, is there some sort of proof (like some stats before and after the price change or something) that the users who pirated it would buy it? Or was it mostly users trying it out and not doing much real work by using it? There was good reason why Blender back then when it wasn't opensource had personal edition. And anyone doing things professionally tends to have legal copies of their tools, also the costs are typically covered within just few months.

If the price increase helped them to get funds they expected while not offending most of their customers, then it was right move. If they seek for affordable tool they can always create some lite version without some professional features or something.
Offline jezek2
« Reply #138 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:32:58 »

Interesting point raised back there: if prices are so low why is Android piracy so rife versus Steam?

Answer: (my hypothesis)
1. Steam has no refund policy, whatsoever. If you even try a chargeback your entire account is terminated and you lose everything. No comeback.
2. Android has a 24hr refund policy, which unfortunately still leaves you with the .apk which you can copy before refunding.
3. Android users are, shall we say, more tight than iOS users. Piracy isn't the only reason stuff is free on Android - it's also because many many users are too tight to pay for anything in the first place, which is why they have $100 Android phones instead of $300 iPhones.

Sounds like Google's fault mostly. Read that in the most recent version of Android they're adding locking the purchased app to given device by signing. I don't think that most users use rooted devices or alternative opensource builds of Android.

I googled some concrete example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2012/jul/23/dead-trigger-android-free-piracy

In this example they mention the piracy ratio was 9:1, if I remember World of Goo had similar ratio and still was big success. Maybe they should price the game for like $5 instead of rubbish $.99. Setting too low price (unless it's limited deal) make it look cheap (=bad). If someone is willing to pay they can usually afford more than $1, and even if it was priced $0.01 it would still get pirated a lot. So no point of too much lowering of price.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #139 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:34:44 »

And anyone doing things professionally tends to have legal copies of their tools,

Absolutely!  I knew a number of people way back using pirated copies of Macromedia Director which I think was selling for +£1000.  Personally (and maybe cynically?), I believe that they and others deliberately made such software easy to copy, to encourage people to spend time learning it, and once they're hooked and need to use it professionally - bamn!  http://www.myownlittleworld.org.uk/whimsy/dealers.htm  Wink

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Damocles
« Reply #140 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:36:30 »

Thats the positive side of piracy for a developer -> market penetration.

(And making people get used to and depend on this product)

Offline jezek2
« Reply #141 - Posted 2012-08-17 12:51:01 »

And anyone doing things professionally tends to have legal copies of their tools,

Absolutely!  I knew a number of people way back using pirated copies of Macromedia Director which I think was selling for +£1000.  Personally (and maybe cynically?), I believe that they and others deliberately made such software easy to copy, to encourage people to spend time learning it, and once they're hooked and need to use it professionally - bamn!  http://www.myownlittleworld.org.uk/whimsy/dealers.htm  Wink

Yes I know there are some exceptions with even quite big companies to use pirated SW. In one case it was some specific tool they could easily afford (not cheap, it was about 10k EUR, but no brainer money for that company and being quite important tool for them), but for some reason they didn't. And more interestingly the SW authors knew about that particular company that they're using pirated copy (we've been in contact with both the offending company and the dealer for the SW as we as much smaller company bought it, the dealer told us about it), don't know how it ended, but they rather tried to encourage them to purchase it from time to time, than just suing them. Probably they don't think it would be worth it.

But in majority of other companies we met they had legal SW, especially when the company is bigger.

There are also people who are so used to warez, so they use tools like Photoshop and Illustrator for their (even within company for some non-core stuff, like creating some graphics design of their products) while they could very easily use free tools like Inkscape or GIMP, or cheap shareware. I really don't count these as lost sale, because if they couldn't use pirated version they would just use a free tool. They don't use any extra professional feature of the tools. Still they do it from some habit or something. Still using these unnecessary tools in company is just risk for nothing, but that's their problem Smiley
Offline Cero
« Reply #142 - Posted 2012-08-17 13:14:06 »

Mark Leung posted many many gamplay videos of his game on youtube. On each and every one, as well as on other promo articles, there were torrent links to pirate the game.
The game was also reviewed on "WTF is..."

So, as far as getting your game out there and known, it can be a pretty good move and overall may very well increase sales.
Especially if you increase your fanbase.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #143 - Posted 2012-08-17 13:40:55 »

It must be interesting to be a sociologist and to observe the acrobatics people go through to reinforce their positive self image.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #144 - Posted 2012-08-17 14:24:37 »

It must be interesting to be a sociologist and to observe the acrobatics people go through to reinforce their positive self image.

Just because someone points out that piracy isn't all 100% evil, doesn't mean they're condoning piracy. What you just said could equally be applied to the contortions you're going through trying to interpret the 'shades of grey' arguments as all black! =)

The silly thing with this approach is that I think we're fairly close in view (except for how words should be used!)  I think people who can afford to pay for games should do so.  I mind piracy less when it's people who couldn't pay, or the software is exorbitant priced (think Photoshop).  Note - I personally choose The Gimp, because I'd rather use legal, free tools.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #145 - Posted 2012-08-17 15:16:36 »

The controversy rages between the ratios between could:would:should when it comes to paying for things.

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #146 - Posted 2012-08-17 15:25:53 »

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/17/beck_sheet_music/

ho ho.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #147 - Posted 2012-08-17 15:28:18 »

I personally choose The Gimp, because I'd rather use legal, free tools.
I personally need experience in Photoshop to get a job which gives me money to pay exorbitant prices of adobe products...

Offline Roquen
« Reply #148 - Posted 2012-08-17 15:47:19 »

@kaffiene: I think it should be clear I wouldn't use the word 'evil'.  And what exact "shades of grey" into black am I doing?

By calling it "illegal coping"  you're basically saying:  "Weeeellll it's, ya know, technically wrong (wink wink, nudge nudge)".  So you are in effect implicitly condoning because people hear that they want to hear.

I'm, on the other hand, saying: "Hey, steal shit if you want to, but do you really have to be such a little sissy about it?  Oh yeah, and don't be a totally loser and tell me you're really doing me a favor in the process.  Or here's a better idea, be like most pirates and just keep your mouth shut."
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #149 - Posted 2012-08-17 16:03:56 »

@kaffiene: I think it should be clear I wouldn't use the word 'evil'.  And what exact "shades of grey" into black am I doing?

By calling it "illegal coping"  you're basically saying:  "Weeeellll it's, ya know, technically wrong (wink wink, nudge nudge)".  So you are in effect implicitly condoning because people hear that they want to hear.
No I'm not.  That's explicitly NOT what I'm saying


I'm, on the other hand, saying: "Hey, steal shit if you want to, but do you really have to be such a little sissy about it?  Oh yeah, and don't be a totally loser and tell me you're really doing me a favor in the process.  Or here's a better idea, be like most pirates and just keep your mouth shut."

That's offensive.  If you're going to deliberately not listen to what I'm saying and just make up your own interpretation of what I'm saying - knock yourself out.  I'm done with this.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

pw (26 views)
2014-07-24 01:59:36

Riven (25 views)
2014-07-23 21:16:32

Riven (20 views)
2014-07-23 21:07:15

Riven (22 views)
2014-07-23 20:56:16

ctomni231 (51 views)
2014-07-18 06:55:21

Zero Volt (46 views)
2014-07-17 23:47:54

danieldean (37 views)
2014-07-17 23:41:23

MustardPeter (40 views)
2014-07-16 23:30:00

Cero (56 views)
2014-07-16 00:42:17

Riven (55 views)
2014-07-14 18:02:53
HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 03:59:08

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:58:24

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:47:22

How do I start Java Game Development?
by ra4king
2014-05-17 11:13:37

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-15 09:59:54

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-06 15:03:10

Escape Analysis
by Roquen
2014-04-29 22:16:43

Experimental Toys
by Roquen
2014-04-28 13:24:22
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!