Java-Gaming.org Hi !
Featured games (83)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (513)
Games in Android Showcase (120)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (577)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
  ignore  |  Print  
  Closed for business - Android vs. iOS  (Read 22324 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline Cero
« Posted 2012-07-31 14:48:44 »

John Romero retweeted this article

http://mattgemmell.com/2012/07/23/closed-for-business/

While its true, its seems like these people aren't considering the choice of: write once and port.
Of course, I dont know how well that works outside of java, but with libgdx coming up with iOS port, I'm sure I will release all games on both platforms...

Also I gotta say, reason why I and many other people pirate games on Android is also: Credit card.
You can ONLY buy with a credit card... in europe, its just not that common.

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-07-31 15:31:11 »

Quote
A price-tag of one dollar is passive smoking. You’re killing people around you, for your own short-term benefit

It's called capitalism, bitches, look it up.  You think you're hot elite shit because you can make colored blobs on the screen beep?  Seems someone else can do the same and practically give it away.  If you aren't justifying a higher price by recapitalizing the extra profits into making a better game, you don't deserve to sell it for more.

The rest of his post is really beneath contempt.  "Freedom from choice" indeed. The Android Problem exists precisely because people choose Android.  Go ahead and boycott Android, cause all those moochers and leeches to wander lost in the wilderness from your withheld productivity, mumbling "Who is John Galt" when they notice the empty store in Play.  Or gosh, maybe that won't happen after all.

Offline Cero
« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-07-31 19:19:58 »

There is also something related to the credit card problem:

One way to effectively fight piracy, is to make the legal way more convenient than the illegal way.
I think Steam proved this.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-07-31 19:20:40 »

Hm, I think you're (@sproingie) missing what he's saying in that article. I do agree that the existence of closed markets selling games for a buck is actually devaluing software in other markets as I've got several years of data to point at it; however I'm not complaining because, being a capitalist, I'm all right Jack, my shit's on Steam. If you can't beat 'em join 'em, which is fine, provided they'll let you in, and therein lies another can of worms.

What he is saying though is that piracy is utterly rampant on Android by design, and he is exactly right. The same game at the same price mysteriously makes less than 1% of the same revenue that it makes on iOS. Turns out the chief reason is because it's trivial - totally trivial - to sideload apps on Android. And this is exactly why I've sat on my Android code for a year and done bugger all with it, because I can't be bothered with a free-to-play model (yet, anyway).

I do understand - someone wise correct me - that Jelly Bean finally introduces proper encrypted DRM for .apk files delivered through the Play Store which makes an .apk only decryptable by the OS using the user's credentials or somesuch bollocks. Thus removing piracy beyond the reaches of anyone not into rooting their phones, i.e. nearly everyone.

Cas Smiley

Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 149
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-07-31 23:02:39 »

Wait, people steal software? Shocked What ever will we do!

Pricing apps too low really is lame, but with exposure to hundreds of millions of people, apps can be priced low and successful apps still make money. As sproingie described, there is no stopping it. As a result there are tons of quick to market, shitty apps. It sucks, and of course it would be better if it were easier to make tons of money for building high quality software.

I agree that closed is better for business. This shouldn't be some big surprise that we are just now coming to realize. Does that mean Android should be closed? Hell no, IMO. I do wish they made it harder for piracy, exposing more to the app so checks can be placed inside the app, making it much harder to strip.

Go build apps for iOS if making the money is of utmost importance. Note it isn't all gravy over there either, as you have to complete your app 100% and then hope it gets put in the store.

None of it matters, really. Be smart, design around it. Build an online game where piracy has much less effect. I know I'm being a romantic, but I believe if you build something great that you can ultimately succeed, especially with a little forethought about the market.

@princec, re: JellyBean, a tool will be made to strip the encryption and the app placed in an alternate market where it is widely available and can be side loaded on to stock devices.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-07-31 23:33:16 »

Hm Jellybean still useless then in that regard. Unless the OS itself refused to install unencrypted apks it's never gonna fly.

Back to wondering how to make money from free-to-play on Android then. Bah.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-07-31 23:40:38 »

I pirated every game on Android that wasnt free - I dont know, like 20.
I really wanted to buy a few, but since I have no credit card, I had no choice.

Guy must be American apparently scottish, he said to me "You don’t know anyone who owns a credit card? What age are you? I don’t know anyone who doesn’t."

Also a lot of young people are customers - people from age 12-22 are definitely very interested in games, but certainly dont have a credit card, not even in USA, or so I hope.
You are ruling them out entirely.

Even the Dark Knight Rises was for ages 12 and up, for a reason...

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-08-01 00:01:23 »

Er, how do you buy anything at all on the internet then?

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd
« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-08-01 00:07:33 »

Guy must be American apparently scottish, he said to me "You don’t know anyone who owns a credit card? What age are you? I don’t know anyone who doesn’t."

Also a lot of young people are customers - people from age 12-22 are definitely very interested in games, but certainly dont have a credit card, not even in USA, or so I hope.
You are ruling them out entirely.
I got my Visa card when I was 14 I think. Did I mention I live in Sweden? xD

Myomyomyo.
Offline Cero
« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-08-01 00:26:49 »

Er, how do you buy anything at all on the internet then?

All Paypal.


Guy must be American apparently scottish, he said to me "You don’t know anyone who owns a credit card? What age are you? I don’t know anyone who doesn’t."

Also a lot of young people are customers - people from age 12-22 are definitely very interested in games, but certainly dont have a credit card, not even in USA, or so I hope.
You are ruling them out entirely.
I got my Visa card when I was 14 I think. Did I mention I live in Sweden? xD
How is that even possible ? Which bank gives you a credit card if you dont have a fulltime job ?
You cant even have a full bank account at 14 xD

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-08-01 00:57:39 »

I actually agree with the author that piracy is a huge problem on Android.  However, it's even easier to pirate PC games than Android ones, but for some reason -- despite dire predictions year after year -- the software industry has stubbornly failed to be killed off because of it.

Then of course there's Gemmell's strawman-punching against nerds, that's always a classic rhetorical move.  My mom's vision isn't very good, she wanted a bigger font in her app, so I guess that makes her a member of the neckbeard pocket-protecter set.  The imperious attitude just goes on and on, til the end where I really am hoping the door hits him on the ass on his way out.

Tone matters.

Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 149
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-08-01 07:14:44 »

I pirated every game on Android that wasnt free - I dont know, like 20.
I really wanted to buy a few, but since I have no credit card, I had no choice.
Eh, I have a feeling you aren't trying as hard as you could be. Go to the bank and open an account and get a debit card that says VISA on it. You can use it just like a credit card without the need for a bank to trust you with actual credit. When you buy something with a debit card, the money comes out of your checking account.

Offline Cero
« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-08-01 14:53:13 »

I pirated every game on Android that wasnt free - I dont know, like 20.
I really wanted to buy a few, but since I have no credit card, I had no choice.
Eh, I have a feeling you aren't trying as hard as you could be. Go to the bank and open an account and get a debit card that says VISA on it. You can also use it just like a credit card without the need for a bank to trust you with actual credit. When you buy something with a debit card, the money comes out of your checking account.

Well yeah, now because of Google Play / Wallet, I made a new account with a different bank, since my bank doesnt offer prepaid credit cards and now I have one.
But my normal bank card is a german EC card - wiki/Electronic_cash
These are only ATM cards. You can use them to pay in a store - but these are not credit cards

Because of paying the Googly Play fee, I literally asked everyone and their mom if they had a credit card. Best case was "well I think I have some uncle who might..."
Even a 45 year old person who used to work in a bank no less, and now has his own business - and he doesnt have one.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-08-01 15:22:09 »

What about ordinary debit cards? How do people buy things in shops in Europe? Still carrying around piles of irritating change and wallets stuffed full of notes?

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-08-01 15:54:04 »

I bought stuff off Play (when it was called Android Market) all the time with a debit card.  Possible they might not be sufficient for a developer account, but I suspect even that's not the case.
Offline Cero
« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-08-01 16:01:46 »

What about ordinary debit cards? How do people buy things in shops in Europe? Still carrying around piles of irritating change and wallets stuffed full of notes?

Like I said you can use EC cards in shops.
Never heard of any person in germany even mentioning debit cards - there is an old term "Scheckkarte" / "cheque card" but I haven't heard or seen those since like 1995.

Edit: Had to read it up. All EC cards are "Maestro" cards, and apparently all Maestro cards are in fact debit cards. However you cant use them as a credit card for online things, when a credit card is required and stuff.

But yea, years ago I worked at a GameStop and at a cinema. People who pay using anything other than cash is rare, by rare I would guess like 3-12%. No one ever payed with a credit card. I would have remembered... the cash register had a button for it, which I never used.
But in all my time I saw one pay with a VISA...

And all these people actually have smartphones, which are in most cases android.

So my point stands.
I'm pretty sure few people would run out and buy a credit card to pay for android games...

Offline Cero
« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-08-01 16:10:23 »

Ironically I am the guy who never has cash, and I always borrow it from friends.
The amount of places in which you cannot pay any other way than cash are overwhelming.
Mc Donalds only recently got EC checkout devices.

Offline Spasi
« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-08-01 16:10:53 »

What about ordinary debit cards? How do people buy things in shops in Europe? Still carrying around piles of irritating change and wallets stuffed full of notes?

I didn't have a credit card for a long time. When I tried to have one issued, it was the start of the crisis here in Greece and I was surprised to find out that my request was denied. And I had above average income at the time. Nowadays, it's even harder of course and the credit limits are a joke. Luckily all banks have converted their debit cards to Visa/Mastercard/etc and you can use them virtually anywhere.

They're a bit annoying though, you can't use monthly payment plans and they have a low-ish amount-per-transaction limit for security reasons. For example I couldn't order my big-ass TV last year and had to use a friend's credit card. For games, groceries and such they're great of course.
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-08-01 16:12:15 »

And in some mysterious way this isn't a problem on ios. Damn they even require the credit card just to get access to market.
Offline Cero
« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-08-01 16:14:21 »

And in some mysterious way this isn't a problem on ios. Damn they even require the credit card just to get access to market.

Well I wasn't sure about iOS, since I have no experience there.
So I guess that is no point against Android alone then, but its still a huge problem, at least here.
Granted, people who own an iphone are likely to be wealthy...

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-08-01 17:46:36 »

a credit card... in europe, its just not that common.

Really? Because my job is to sell people stuff, and more than half pay with credit card. I guess I live in an odd part of europe.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-08-01 18:18:43 »

Credit cards are, despite anecdotal evidence offered here, extremely common in Europe. That doesn't really matter though - even I don't use a credit card to buy stuff online, I use a debit card instead usually, as I don't have any credit cards myself any more (I don't actually need any credit). Nearly everybody who has a bank account has a debit card - either Visa Debit or Maestro. And this is the card that everybody can use with Google Wallet or Paypal or Amazon Paymebts or most other online transaction providers.

So this fact notwithstanding - that being, there is virtually no excuse nor even technical reason why Europeans do not buy things online but instead find it mysteriously easier to pirate them - you would need to explain the success of iTunes and Steam in Europe to me, because I'm dying to know how they're so successful if nobody in Europe can pay.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 817
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-08-01 18:34:50 »

In Europe, creditcards are extremely common among >30 year olds.

When I was 24, none of my friends and colleges had a credit card. This is anecdotal evidence, sure, but it's my observation and I'm fairly sure it give a good impression of the situation in my country (The Netherlands).

Credicards are only slowly becoming more common because the internet basically requires you to have one - still, my guestimate is that it's increasing very slowly.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-08-01 18:50:00 »

But... but... but... you don't need a credit card. A debit card will do. Anyone can have a debit card who has a bank account. They normally give you them automatically.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 817
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-08-01 19:15:18 »

Just commenting on this specific quote:
Credit cards are, despite anecdotal evidence offered here, extremely common in Europe.

Age is very important in sales. I can imagine the majority of game purchases would be for people younger than 30, as they typically have money to spare and don't yet have this burden of a mortgage and a family to provide for.

Most sites ask for credit cards, so while they may support debit cards, that's not a widely known fact. (or at least, I thought 'only' Paypal was a major player in that area)

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Oskuro

JGO Knight


Medals: 40
Exp: 6 years


Coding in Style


« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-08-01 20:03:51 »

Nice inflammatory article that sounds quite a bit butthurt.

I can agree to a degree that, for most users, freedom is not as important as convenience. But what the article fails to realize is that the freedom offered by open platforms is meant for the developers.

My personal distaste for iOS is not because of the user experience. At the end of the day both the Android and Apple markets (Or the BlackBerry market in my case) are functionally identical from a user perspective, but for a developer, having the owner of the system have absolute control over distribution is a very dangerous proposition.

The idea of a free market is that products are evaluated by consumers, and survive on their quality alone. In closed markets like iOS or the consoles, the platform owners can force their own agenda, effectively banning whatever they don't deem suitable of being published, to the detriment of consumers and developers alike.

Some time back, someone made a iPhone app that showed a pair of bouncing breasts (not even bare, mind you) that would jiggle to the movement of the device. The app was quickly banned.
Yeah, it was juvenile, and maybe not in the best of tastes, but if I as a consumer decide I want a pair of jiggling breasts on my iPhone, or a jiggling dick for that matter, who the hell is Apple to tell me what I can or cannot do with my device?

And let's not forget that this isn't new. The videogame market has been heavily influenced by Wal-Mart in the US, a retail chain so big, that their refusal to stock adult-oriented or otherwise objectionably titles has resulted in the near total destruction of said market worldwide.

The bottom line: How can new markets and niches be explored, if neither the consumers nor the developers are truly free to choose the products they want to focus on?


Oh, and a nice extra that is constantly being experienced by console developers? Closed markets, and exclusivity to said markets means that, should the market fail, anyone tied to it fails too.

@Riven:
Quote
Age is very important in sales.
Yeah, and Credit Cards should be the tool for parents to control the spending habits of their children. That's why many mobile devices try to find ways around it (charging purchases to the phone line, for example), so kids can buy. Luckily, Apple and others are beginning to take heat from concerned parents who (rightly) see it as immoral to extort children for money.

So yeah, credit cards are an obstacle, but a needed obstacle in my opinion.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 817
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-08-01 20:11:25 »

Don't underestimate the 18-30 group, which is where all the money is at (and no easy way to spend it Sad)

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Oskuro

JGO Knight


Medals: 40
Exp: 6 years


Coding in Style


« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-08-01 20:22:02 »

Agreed, but said group is maturing too, we're all getting used to online purchases, and tricks that used to work no longer work that easily. Guess that's why kiddie games are trying to extort money from chidren now... And cats.


Also, let's not forget that everything, including iOS devices, the Xbox, the PS or the Wii can be pirated, and there's even people making money out of offering convenient jailbreaking services. Closed platforms aren't really a guarantee in the long run.

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-08-01 21:26:08 »

It can't go without mentioning that the marginal cost of software development is ZERO, meaning it might cost you N dollars/euros/quatloos to build your first widget (the app), after which it costs nothing to copy it and serve the next one.  At one time, you might have had to pay for distribution, but now you don't even have to do that for most stuff. 

So here we have an industry with an infinite supply, heavy demand, a minimal barrier to entry, and zero marginal cost.  I simply can't envision any circumstance in which prices aren't going to spiral down.  Apple's walled garden does curate an experience that many devs and users are willing to pay for, but it will always have to find something to differentiate it from what you'll get for free.  First shoe to drop, I suspect, will be the demise of the App Store fees charged to devs.
Offline Oskuro

JGO Knight


Medals: 40
Exp: 6 years


Coding in Style


« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-08-01 21:45:54 »

Ahh, this brings the following list to mind:

5 Reasons the Future Will be Ruled by B.S.

Fun read, and insightful.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

Longarmx (52 views)
2014-10-17 03:59:02

Norakomi (43 views)
2014-10-16 15:22:06

Norakomi (33 views)
2014-10-16 15:20:20

lcass (37 views)
2014-10-15 16:18:58

TehJavaDev (68 views)
2014-10-14 00:39:48

TehJavaDev (68 views)
2014-10-14 00:35:47

TehJavaDev (60 views)
2014-10-14 00:32:37

BurntPizza (73 views)
2014-10-11 23:24:42

BurntPizza (45 views)
2014-10-11 23:10:45

BurntPizza (86 views)
2014-10-11 22:30:10
Understanding relations between setOrigin, setScale and setPosition in libGdx
by mbabuskov
2014-10-09 22:35:00

Definite guide to supporting multiple device resolutions on Android (2014)
by mbabuskov
2014-10-02 22:36:02

List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!