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  Project Jigsaw might be pushed back to Java 9  (Read 5668 times)
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Offline actual

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« Posted 2012-07-18 02:18:09 »

http://mreinhold.org/blog/late-for-the-train

I'm more interested in the lambdas than I am in Jigsaw but still not great news. I also wish they'd be a bit more aggressive with their release cycle and be less afraid to push things out when they are ready and not wait 2 years.
Offline ra4king

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-07-18 03:05:21 »

Oh no... but what about that beta version of Java 8 that had a functional version of jigsaw? What's their excuse for making them take this long?

Offline actual

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-07-18 03:50:39 »

In the article he doesn't give a specific reason for the delay, only saying that a change of this magnitude needs more time.
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Offline sproingie

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-07-18 03:57:03 »

Presumably there were issues with the preview of jigsaw.  I have no problems with them pushing it back as long as lambdas and extension methods are a go.
Offline Riven
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« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-07-18 04:00:32 »

The longer they wait, the less relevant it becomes.

In 2015 we'll have digital photos the size of the JDK.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-07-18 08:10:14 »

Very true. What was once a major issue is already irrelevant. What's relevant now is what's happening to OpenJDK on MacOS. Funny how the world turns.

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-07-18 09:33:37 »

Big Java's changes are almost always too little too late, however I'd say its a good move to push Jigsaw back until its mature as it is a massive change with long ranging consequences for the platform, so best its designed and done correctly rather than something that is rushed out.
Offline badlogicgames

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-07-18 09:50:25 »

It's a bummer in so far as Jigsaw seems to be related to their future iOS JVM version. They demonstrated JavaFX on an iPad at last years Java One in SF. Oh well...

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Offline gimbal

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-07-18 09:53:39 »

Note that runtime size is only one of the points mentioned in that rather excellent article. Jigsaw brings far more important things to the table, such as making the classpath obsolete.
Online Jimmt
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« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:02:39 »

I'm not too knowledgeable about modular programming, but does mean that the java library would be split into essentially mix and match pieces?
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Offline jonjava
« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:24:58 »

I'm not too knowledgeable about modular programming, but does mean that the java library would be split into essentially mix and match pieces?


Isn't it already like that?  Stare

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:29:22 »

I'm not too knowledgeable about modular programming, but does mean that the java library would be split into essentially mix and match pieces?


Isn't it already like that?  Stare

No, the JDK is one big mother that keeps on growing too Wink

And yes, that is what it would mean. I see it more that you get a sort of super libraries composed of several smaller ones, each within their own private breathing space. You could have a module with library version 1.0 and a module with library version 2.0 and use both modules in the same application without library conflicts. Enterprise systems such as JBoss already have such a module system by making very precise use of the classloader system, but the "jar hell" remains regardless.
Online Jimmt
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« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:32:45 »

Ok, thanks for the clarification jonjava.
Offline jonjava
« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:36:51 »

Ok, thanks for the clarification jonjava gimbal.

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:43:31 »

Also be interesting to see AWT/Swing moved into a separate module where those libraries will be left to die with a JavaFX module to replace it.

Could be interesting for third party libraries too who would just provide something like a SWT or LWJGL module.
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:53:05 »

Also be interesting to see AWT/Swing moved into a separate module where those libraries will be left to die when the JavaFX module replaces it.

Indeed, although modules tend to linger where they shouldn't because to get such a system to work you still create dependencies which can turn into legacy dependencies. Even younger platforms such as Ruby suffer from it.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-07-18 11:03:34 »

Another really interesting aspects of Project Jigsaw is the many optimisations it'll enable as discussed in this video, which if implemented can potentially provide 60% faster startup time.
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« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-07-18 13:14:32 »

sorry. was using an ipod touch
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-07-19 11:59:22 »

Very true. What was once a major issue is already irrelevant. What's relevant now is what's happening to OpenJDK on MacOS.

You know this keeps echoing in my brain because I can't really place why you make this particular comment. What IS happening to OpenJDK on the Mac? Is there anything I missed or are you referring to the fact that OpenJDK has in fact landed on the Mac now (albeit 64 bits only for some reason)?
Offline Roquen
« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-07-19 12:14:26 »

Aside: I can't think of any reason to want a 32-bit version.
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-07-19 13:11:50 »

Aside: I can't think of any reason to want a 32-bit version.

Actually I agree. Look what the whole 32 bits / 64 bits co-existence madness has done to the pc; what a maintenance nightmare.
Offline princec

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-07-19 13:19:24 »

Very true. What was once a major issue is already irrelevant. What's relevant now is what's happening to OpenJDK on MacOS.

You know this keeps echoing in my brain because I can't really place why you make this particular comment. What IS happening to OpenJDK on the Mac? Is there anything I missed or are you referring to the fact that OpenJDK has in fact landed on the Mac now (albeit 64 bits only for some reason)?
I'm not 100% sure of what's going on with OpenJDK on the Mac but I do know that getting a smooth transition from the Apple-maintained framework to using OpenJDK is of particular interest to me. Also there are problems with LWJGL and OpenJDK which need to be resolved urgently but so far nobody is able to do it AFAIK (unless Mojang have made some progress).

Cas Smiley

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-07-19 13:36:03 »

Ah, I get it now Smiley

And again I agree - OpenJDK moving to the Mac I see as one of the highlights of Java integration and acceptation progress as now it covers the big three without fragmentation. I don't want to diss Linux being one of them Linux freaks but Mac is simply a more important platform nowadays - in that respect I feel that Oracle is a bit... silent. You hear that stuff is going to happen, you perhaps get a preview but its basically just "there" all of a sudden. Here it is, download it, have a nice day and if you have trouble.... *static noise*.

I'd expect a more open way of providing and getting feedback on something as exciting and new. But that's just Oracle I guess. The best they do 'for free' is that one person keeps an eye on specifically named OTN forum threads twice a week.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-07-23 13:53:50 »

Pretty nice rant on this subject here.
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-07-23 16:14:36 »

Nice read. Although I am a bit tired of people blogging what they think is the truth and then hide behind the "but its only me, I may be wrong!" argument. No! Stand behind your opinion and get it into the brain of others, or at least suffer the consequences of your failure to understand and be corrected in public for everyone to see and smirk about.

That being said, I am inclined to agree what the dude has to say up to the "this is a compatible java reboot" part. Naw its not, its more a progression of what already exists (the classpath system) and what others have built (OSGi). On that note, I think I'll just have to give up hope for Jigsaw to exist any time soon and just go look into applying OSGi for now...
Offline princec

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« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-07-23 20:38:04 »

All they damn well needed to do was just shuffle a couple of classes about into packages and separate each package into a jar with any dependent dlls and change the terms of the license to allow distribution thusly in "embedded" projects. You know like how several of us managed to just chop our JVMs down to 2.4mb download payloads, 10 years ago. Grrr. Pointless complexity and politics and overengineering to solve such a trivial problem ("it's too big because it's full of crap we don't need or use!")

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-07-23 21:39:31 »

Yeah that's all they needed to do except for the part about it not working even remotely like that.  There's more to a module system than just "chop up the jars", like versioning and dependencies.  Or would you like to be stuck with more half-assed hacks for the next 15 years?

I get more than a little tired with all the armchair architects who claim that everyone else's job is always so trivial that any idiot could do it.
Offline princec

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-07-23 21:44:29 »

I think my point is that they are solving a problem hardly anyone had and ignored a huge problem that lots of people had, and now they've spent so long on it no-one really cares that much any more.

Also - it really was that simple, and it wasn't even a hack. The issue wasn't even technical - it was purely legal. So desperate were Sun to prevent people using their IP in a way they didn't approve of they got to the situation where Dalvik was created and now owns the world.

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-07-23 21:48:33 »

You still seem to believe jigsaw was solely about minimizing the JRE size, and that's simply not what it was primarily about.  The target audience is JavaEE platforms which all tend to do weird classloader hacks that aren't really standardized, and are all moving to OSGi, which has its own set of issues.  I'm sure the mere mention of EE will provoke a new round of scoffing, but that's the way it is.

Or I should say "was" the target audience, because I now have my doubts jigsaw will ever ship.  I could live with a little "half-assery" that at least broke goofy crap like CORBA out of rt.jar.  They already do that sort of thing for XML parsers after all.
Offline princec

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-07-23 21:55:56 »

You still seem to believe jigsaw was solely about minimizing the JRE size, and that's simply not what it was primarily about.  The target audience is JavaEE platforms which all tend to do weird classloader hacks that aren't really standardized, and are all moving to OSGi, which has its own set of issues.  I'm sure the mere mention of EE will provoke a new round of scoffing, but that's the way it is.

Or I should say "was" the target audience, because I now have my doubts jigsaw will ever ship.  I could live with a little "half-assery" that at least broke goofy crap like CORBA out of rt.jar.  They already do that sort of thing for XML parsers after all.
Ah - you kinda agree with me. I could live without AWT, Swing, RMI, etc. etc. as well. I don't think it was all about reducing JRE size, but that was my own personal issue with it. Various others have had issues with being forced to include (or specifically "port" stuff) that was irrelevant in order to get a license etc. Simply being able to chop all the crap out of the VM and add whatever you wanted to it would have probably led to a plugin like Unity being built from Java instead of Mono but it doesn't really matter any more.

Cas Smiley

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