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Offline longino

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #30 - Posted 2012-07-17 22:36:23 »

Who would get to say what goes in these standard game libraries? Perhaps you should create / implement a prototype solution?

Why to reinvent the wheel? There are plenty of Java game engines around. Just pick one and use it as the default, with some option for plugging in others if needed or desired.
Offline longino

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #31 - Posted 2012-07-17 22:38:42 »

So...Why don't you do that?

Because I am not the creator nor maintainer of any game engine at all. And since most of the work is already done, only in different places, it seems that would be just a matter of putting everything together.
Offline longino

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #32 - Posted 2012-07-17 22:41:06 »

I think his point was that xna is a tool set that is easily available, is preconfigured, and means you can just get on with the job of writing the game.

There isn't anything like that for Java, you have to pick the libraries you wish to use, download and install them separately, manage distribution etc. You can't just open an IDE, write Java, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared. It's an ease of use of the toolset rather than something to make writing games easier I think.

It sounds like he would like a version of eclipse that has a project template with jogl/jinput/ardor/jMonkeyEngine already there and waiting to go.

I *think* jMonkey might be the closest in that respect (it's been a while since I even looked).

Endolf

Someone with a brain. I was kind of losing hope.
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Offline jonjava
« Reply #33 - Posted 2012-07-17 22:48:59 »

If you're using java, or ANY programming language for that matter, and you don't know how/can't be bothered to make use of other peoples code then why bother in the first place?

JMonkeyEngine, LibGDX those are the kind of "collections" of libs you're looking for. Even GTGE still works perfectly http://www.goldenstudios.or.id/products/GTGE/index.php.

Offline jonjava
« Reply #34 - Posted 2012-07-17 23:08:57 »

I think his point was that xna is a tool set that is easily available,

It's the ONLY thing available.

is preconfigured,

Another way of saying that it's unconfigurable and highly restrictive.

and means you can just get on with the job of writing the game.

Not any more or less as fast than its java counterparts. You still need to handle all your game logic, rendering, collisions. databases etc etc.

There isn't anything like that for Java, you have to pick the libraries you wish to use, download and install them separately, manage distribution etc. You can't just open an IDE, write Java, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared.

Java is a programming language, XNA is a collection of libraries. That's like saying you can't just whip out an IDE, write C#, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared. In fact, Java comes out ahead in a scenario like this.

It's an ease of use of the toolset rather than something to make writing games easier I think.

I don't understand. What makes XNA more easier to use than other gaming libraries? To get it "set up" you need to import the required things in VS anyway, like you would do with any other library.

It sounds like he would like a version of eclipse that has a project template with jogl/jinput/ardor/jMonkeyEngine already there and waiting to go.

It sounds to me like he's not enjoying programming and would benefit from more straightforward approaches such as Game Maker or hire a programmer and he himself only do the Game Design/Art.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 355
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #35 - Posted 2012-07-18 03:29:29 »

Based on longinos's past posts, this thread, and his general condescending attitude, I'm glad this idiot is gone.

Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #36 - Posted 2012-07-18 06:06:25 »

WTF has happened to this place?

It used to be that someone who wanted help writing games in Java could turn up, ask some questions, get some help, make some friends and get on with writing games.

I'm embarrassed by this community some times. Get over yourselves.

The OP just wanted to get on and write games, wanted to download 1 package that had all the bits in he needed to get started on writing the game logic.

(Yes, I've seen some of their other posts, but this one *is* a valid question)

Not any more or less as fast than its java counterparts. You still need to handle all your game logic, rendering, collisions. databases etc etc.
But with XNA you get to the point of writing all that stuff quicker, I don't use it, that's my choice, I prefer Java as a language, I believe that Java is a more productive language. The OP is obviously interested in alternatives too, but doesn't have the experience we have with the range of libraries there are for games in Java. I think the OP was just after some ready assembled bundles of java game libs as a starting point.

Quote
Java is a programming language, XNA is a collection of libraries.
I don't understand. What makes XNA more easier to use than other gaming libraries? To get it "set up" you need to import the required things in VS anyway, like you would do with any other library.
The advantage of XNA is exactly the fact that is a collection of libraries and documentation, that's all the OP was after, a collection of Java game libraries.

Quote
It sounds to me like he's not enjoying programming and would benefit from more straightforward approaches such as Game Maker or hire a programmer and he himself only do the Game Design/Art.

I got the impression the OP enjoyed the programming, just wanted to get to the coding part of writing games instead of spending lots of time finding and evaluating the alternative java games libs.

Endolf

Offline StumpyStrust
« Reply #37 - Posted 2012-07-18 07:24:41 »

@endolf

http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/operator-overloading/26860/view.html

http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/now-i-know-why-java-sucks-for-gaming/26878/view.html

Trolls be trolls. It is so blatantly obvious this guy is was trying to troll by trash talking java on a java programming website. If you look up, people mention the libraries/single-download-do-all-work-utility he wanted in previous posts. This site normally is very good to newbies such as myself when we ask VALID questions that have something to do with java and coding games.

This guy had many chances and blew them all so he is gone. Thank God. I think his topics should be removed because they have nothing to do with anything other then trolling

Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #38 - Posted 2012-07-18 07:27:27 »

Yup, saw those, hence the comment about *this* thread being a valid question. I agree that the others should be deleted or locked, but this one is a valid question and should have been treated as such.

Endolf

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #39 - Posted 2012-07-18 08:24:30 »

I didn't think that first instance referred to there was trolling, just an opening for discussion.

I am irked by community attitude here sometimes. Endolf's response was accurate and well thought out; other posts in this thread really just seemed to be either deliberately missing the point to try and wind longino up or just plain trolling.

New resolution everybody: how about we be nice for a change.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #40 - Posted 2012-07-18 08:36:47 »

New resolution everybody: how about we be nice for a change.

That has to go both ways. I try to be tolerant because I really like the usually laid back attitude that rules this forum, but when you converse the way that longino does... its hard not to take the bait.

As for XNA being the the only thing available, there is also SlimDX which I would call the "libgdx" way to dev games using C#:

http://slimdx.org/

I've never used it but I followed its development with interest and at least a couple of years ago it looked pretty neat. Don't know what it grew into since Smiley
Offline princec

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Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2012-07-18 08:46:53 »

I think Unity's where it's at when it comes to C#. Quite the phenomenon.

wrt Longino - no need to rise to the bait. No need to reply if you don't agree or don't like the tone. Even goeussej and I get along congenially in here.

Cas Smiley

Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #42 - Posted 2012-07-18 09:25:30 »

wrt Longino - no need to rise to the bait. No need to reply if you don't agree or don't like the tone. Even goeussej and I get along congenially in here.

Of course you're right. I guess to understand that last statement you "had to be there" Wink
Offline jonjava
« Reply #43 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:13:36 »

Not any more or less as fast than its java counterparts. You still need to handle all your game logic, rendering, collisions. databases etc etc.
But with XNA you get to the point of writing all that stuff quicker, I don't use it, that's my choice, I prefer Java as a language, I believe that Java is a more productive language. The OP is obviously interested in alternatives too, but doesn't have the experience we have with the range of libraries there are for games in Java

I don't think that's true. XNA isn't some magic library that suddenly does things better and faster than other libraries IMHO. I've only worked on 4 XNA projects, so I'm definitely no expert.

I think the OP was just after some ready assembled bundles of java game libs as a starting point.

I think LibGDX (considering he was talking about Android) was mentioned a few times.

that's all the OP was after, a collection of Java game libraries.

Which is what he got?

I'm embarrassed by this community some times. Get over yourselves.

I don't understand. I don't think anyone's riding on a high horse in here. The only reason I mentioned Game Maker is because he ignored LibGDX and it seemed to me that he might find it useful. It's not an insult, GM is great. Although these days it's quite expensive for the full version :o

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #44 - Posted 2012-07-18 12:06:36 »

There's scope for someone to come up with some RAD tool based on libgdx underneath to compete with Unity I suppose. The real problem of course being that Java is more or less tied to the desktop and its browser plugin is still completely lame.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #45 - Posted 2012-07-18 12:26:33 »

libgdx is missing a 3d scenegraph...
I consider that to be a plus. Smiley
Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #46 - Posted 2012-07-18 12:28:19 »

Good for you, each to their own. It stops me from using it.

Endolf

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
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« Reply #47 - Posted 2012-07-18 13:26:38 »

Does anyone in the games industry at large actually use a 3D scenegraph for anything though?

Cas Smiley

Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #48 - Posted 2012-07-18 13:29:04 »

No idea, but it makes my life easier for the hobby stuff I do Smiley

Endolf

Online kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #49 - Posted 2012-07-18 13:38:49 »

Does anyone in the games industry at large actually use a 3D scenegraph for anything though?

Cas Smiley
Don't Unreal Engine, Unity3D, CryEngine, Source Engine, etc all use 3d scene graphs?
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #50 - Posted 2012-07-18 13:57:51 »

I think someone more knowledgeable on the subject (Roquen? theagentd) will come along and correct me but I have a feeling that these engines are maybe not scene graphs in the "traditional" sense. Even Wikipedia has rather vague definition.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #51 - Posted 2012-07-18 14:08:34 »

rather vague definition.

Which is why I am not even sure entirely what a scene graph is.
I do know the source engine has one though...

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #52 - Posted 2012-07-18 15:02:34 »

With most modern engines, the scenegraph is there at development time so you can drag and drop nodes in a big tree.  At runtime, this gets baked into some spatial partitioning system that doesn't use the naive recursive renderer of a scenegraph.  It's still a very valid conceptual model, if a somewhat obsolete runtime one.
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Hand over your head.


« Reply #53 - Posted 2012-07-18 15:27:01 »

Offtopic:
WTF has happened to this place?
I am irked by community attitude here sometimes.
I think it's a combination of accelerated growth and (new) members trying to establish themselves by being loud, stating opinions that are not fully thought through, occasionally intentionally insulting.


Ontopic:

IMHO 'graphs' are mainly useful for creating a hierarchy for transformations, like holding a weapon or moving around in a vehicle. The more 'meta-data' you add to the nodes (lighting, color, texture, alpha) the more of a mess it becomes. Typically your geometrical graph doesn't quite fit the graph of the other properties, leading to hacks / ugly code to work around these issues.

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Offline Nyhm

Senior Devvie


Medals: 3
Projects: 1


Island Forge


« Reply #54 - Posted 2012-07-19 13:52:27 »

Regarding forum personality: I had a high intensity ranking at one point. I think it's just how I tend to drive a conversation. Even though I give strong opinions, I'm always interested in learning more (and changing my opinions). Unfortunately, in my relatively brief experience here, some of the members focus on the negative and make little attempt to be cordial at all, sadly perpetuating the "jaded programmer" stereotype. I like what JGO is all about, but the community is not what I would call friendly.

On to my jaded opinion on Java+Games: Sun, and now Oracle, have never known what to do for the end-user, and games are all about the end-user. Applets offer a terrible user experience (Adobe got it right with Flash). Java is a language by developers and for developers. There is no good reason users should have to know what language anything is written in, but it takes a lot of work to hide Java from players, even with desktop applications.

On to being full of myself: I was at the first Java Game Conference (at JavaONE 2003). Three Rings Design (PuzzlePirates) presented, which was neat, but overall, the atmosphere was depressed and corporate. I recall Sun was pushing some Java Gaming API, which turned out to be nothing more than a Web page with hyperlinks to the Java2D, Sound, Keyboard, and Joystick JavaDocs. Now that's weak.

More overstated opinions: Regarding the original thread of discussion, I've been fed the it just works line before, and it tends to come from folks that like to stack up blocks rather than construct with an Erector Set. Either can build fine software, but the former is less interested in the nuts and bolts of constructing the framework. This community, for better or worse, is the latter (and I plan to stay).

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #55 - Posted 2012-07-19 14:11:33 »

WRT: Scenegraphs in 3D.  I second what sproingie said.  Great model for building things.  Terrible for runtime/simulations of things.  No major game uses a scenegraph at runtime to my knowledge.
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 836
Projects: 4
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #56 - Posted 2012-07-20 01:48:03 »

Offtopic:

Regarding forum personality: I had a high intensity ranking at one point. I think it's just how I tend to drive a conversation. Even though I give strong opinions, I'm always interested in learning more (and changing my opinions).
Don't expect the rankings to have any meaning. An SQL query certainly can't figure out the way you communicate, let alone whether you're mindlessly rambling or in an intense discussion about stuff that matters. Those rankings are purely there for my amusement (except for the numberwangers listing, that's serious).

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Nyhm

Senior Devvie


Medals: 3
Projects: 1


Island Forge


« Reply #57 - Posted 2012-07-20 02:28:58 »

Offtopic:

Regarding forum personality: I had a high intensity ranking at one point. I think it's just how I tend to drive a conversation. Even though I give strong opinions, I'm always interested in learning more (and changing my opinions).
Don't expect the rankings to have any meaning. An SQL query certainly can't figure out the way you communicate, let alone whether you're mindlessly rambling or in an intense discussion about stuff that matters. Those rankings are purely there for my amusement (except for the numberwangers listing, that's serious).

Yes, I understand. Soon after fining these forums, I found the social numerical analysis to be a very amusing (and unique) feature, so I wanted to point it out in regards to the personality profiling prolific in this post. Regarding rambling ranking, I'm bent on bettering my present 'prone to prose' profile position. I apologize for my apparent aptitude for articulating ancillary articles of the argument. Adew.

Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
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Offline Gudradain
« Reply #58 - Posted 2012-07-20 03:00:27 »

Bonjour

Pls don't bother about this post...
Offline longino

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #59 - Posted 2012-07-21 15:05:13 »

I have been developing in Java for a long time and it puzzles me the state of things in it. Why is Java so bad for so many things? When it is glaringly obvious by the competition that there are better ways of doing things.

Java moves at a glacial pace.

Only in Java 8 we are getting closures and defender methods. And the impression I get is that it happened only because Java development was humiliated so badly that Sun/Oracle had no other choice. Does it really need to reach such a point?

Java is a pathetic non-competitor in gaming because of this "insular" attitude.
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