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  Flash, Java, or both  (Read 7031 times)
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Offline ReBirth
« Reply #30 - Posted 2012-06-28 11:51:11 »

Perhaps you can try to use C# instead? They say it creates better and faster bytecode than "Javascript"/Unityscript
UnityScript? I think it's only C#, Js, and something called Boo. I don't understand three of them, that's why I have to make a solid decision first before jump to Unity.

Offline gimbal

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Medals: 25



« Reply #31 - Posted 2012-06-28 13:22:31 »

Huh. Wouldn't think NetBeans would be good for JS. Maybe I'll try it...

Until Eclipse 3.7 there was also a javascript edition of Eclipse. Seems to have disappeared in the new Eclipse 4 though... Anybody had an experience with it?
Offline Roquen
« Reply #32 - Posted 2012-06-28 13:49:00 »

Just... Javascript though. Eeergh. Why can't I like it?
I get stuck at a much earlier point.  At the "why do I want to write a program that only runs in a browser?" point.

Maybe I should take up playing cards and talking about walking up hill to school in the snow in bare feet, etc. etc.
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Offline krasse
« Reply #33 - Posted 2012-06-28 14:12:31 »

Huh. Wouldn't think NetBeans would be good for JS. Maybe I'll try it...

Yes, it has a lot of useful features like: auto indent, code completion (pretty good), "go to definition", rename variable/function (works best with local variables though...)

Not as good as the Java support though (surprise, surprise), but it is far better than using Notepad++ or a lot of other editors.



Offline krasse
« Reply #34 - Posted 2012-06-28 14:21:37 »

UnityScript? I think it's only C#, Js, and something called Boo. I don't understand three of them, that's why I have to make a solid decision first before jump to Unity.

Here is a good comparison between "normal" JS and Unity JS
It seems to be better to think of Unity's JS as a completely different language than standard JS.

It is probably easier to switch from Java to C# than to Unity JS. Boo seems to be similar to Python, which is perhaps better known Smiley

Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2012-06-28 15:31:40 »

Yeah, the Boo syntax was derived from Python.
That link doesn't load for me Sad
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #36 - Posted 2012-06-28 15:40:13 »

I imagine as long as you compile it down and include the runtime, you're able to use any .NET language on Unity, such as F#, Nemerle, or IronPython.

Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #37 - Posted 2012-06-28 15:41:29 »

I get stuck at a much earlier point.  At the "why do I want to write a program that only runs in a browser?" point.

I translate that as follows: why do I want to forgo writing programs altogether and in stead script an existing program to do stuff for which it really wasn't designed?
Offline Roquen
« Reply #38 - Posted 2012-06-28 15:46:47 »

That's part of it.  The other part is: in a brower...why?  I don't want work or live in a browser.  To me this is the new equivalent to the kids that wanted to do EVERYTHING in emacs in the 80s.
Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #39 - Posted 2012-06-28 15:49:59 »

Yeah, we've already got applets, right? Right??? Wink
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Offline gimbal

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Medals: 25



« Reply #40 - Posted 2012-06-28 16:15:39 »

Yeah, we've already got applets, right? Right???

Same difference - crap in a browser Smiley
Offline krasse
« Reply #41 - Posted 2012-06-28 20:18:31 »

That link doesn't load for me Sad
Strange... Server down Huh

Offline krasse
« Reply #42 - Posted 2012-06-28 20:30:41 »

That's part of it.  The other part is: in a brower...why?  I don't want work or live in a browser.  To me this is the new equivalent to the kids that wanted to do EVERYTHING in emacs in the 80s.

Well, you can view the browsers as different implementations of VMs and class libs that are slowly being standardized so they can within a few years do everything that Flash can do now Smiley
The Java VM/class libs should be there instead... What a waste...

But still, that is the reality. You can always use GWT although it seems all backward.

Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #43 - Posted 2012-06-28 20:46:37 »

dont want to be the party pooper, but i would recommend flash for game development. stage3d is nice and you can easily develop for all mobile platforms (for mobile phones development of adobe air [flash with more access rights and not in the browser] has never stopped.). you can do this with the flex sdk for free or rent the adobe product palette for ~50$ (?) a month (adobe creative coud). Much money but you get all you need at least for 2d game development. adobe flash as a browser plugin might die in not-that-near future. But as long as webgl isn't available on ie, html5 sound is painful and there aren't nice-to-use byte arrays in javascript in all browsers, flash/air is the sane choice.

it would be nice if there would be a way to translate java bytecode to avm2 bytecode. i think there even exist some attempts. as already mentioned there are already some attempts to make flex development with gwt possible (playn, gwt4air...) .

when you want to create client-server-games you should do at least the server part in java. I think nothing beats java in this territory... it's a pity browser java didn't evolve in a way like flash did. i guess the sophisticated flash toolset plays a major role why flash is that successful.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #44 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:06:54 »

stage3d is nice and you can easily develop for all mobile platforms.
Flash Mobile is going to be stopped:
http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2011/11/flash-focus.html

Stage3D is slow on machines with bad shader support. You're not the party pooper. I only agree with your last point, the lack of a complete tool chain for the Java platform, no solid WYSIWYG editor Sad

Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #45 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:08:58 »

Adobe Air is the way to go for mobile. Just a sec and I give you a quote from an official site...
see http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html:
Quote
Adobe continues to actively invest in enabling developers to create and deploy Flash based content as mobile (and desktop) applications via Adobe AIR.
Since apps sell better anyway, you deploy your game to mobile app markets via adobe air and to desktop browsers via the plugin.

Epic Games and Unity Technologies invest in Flash deployment, I dont think they do this for the lulz.

BTW Adobe's PR are disastrous, it is crazy that so many people think their support for Flash content on mobile devices has stopped.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #46 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:21:11 »

BTW Adobe's PR is disastrous, it is crazy that so many people think their support for Flash content on mobile devices has stopped.
Adobe support of Flash Mobile in the browser is going to be stopped and the situation is not good for desktop environment as GNU Linux users will only receive security updates (for browsers supporting only NPAPI, Firefox, Opera) as the whole new features will only be implemented in the Flash plugin based on Pepper API (in Chrome and Chromium). I'm sorry to contradict you but Flash in the web browser is dying.

Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #47 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:26:46 »

Yeah for mobile browser - this is imo a very sane decision since it won't take that long until smart phones can run normal desktop applications. I don't think flash for mobile browsers is a good thing, most people would deactivate it anyway to save bandwidth and battery life. Adobe Air is like Unity or Java and wont die that easy. Java is popluar although their in-browser-stuff kind of sucks. Adobe has to make money too and I dont think Mobile browser flash monetises well.

Regarding the flash browser plugin, I agree, that the thing might die in the far future, but not until html5 and webgl are broadly available and mature. When this is the case (~5-10 years?) adobe flash will compile to html5/javascript.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #48 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:33:19 »

but not until html5 and webgl are broadly available and mature
Therefore, we have some time to write nice Java based games.

Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #49 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:39:18 »

yeah Smiley I love java! But java has a big barrier when it comes to casual multi platform games Sad and this is what I currently want to develop... I read somewhere (on this board?) that, for huge browser games, java holds a substantial part of the audience off due to technology hassle.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #50 - Posted 2012-06-28 21:43:14 »

yeah Smiley I love java! But java has a big barrier when it comes to casual multi platform games Sad and this is what I currently want to develop...
It works fine if you avoid applets using JNLP until it is fixed in OpenJDK or if you rely on Java Web Start. I don't see where this barrier is, it would be better if applets worked better everywhere. Android causes the fragmentation of Java. If IcedRobot was really working fine.....

Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #51 - Posted 2012-06-28 22:22:53 »

as i said: many java browser games loose customers because of java (yea i will probably have to search for quotes Sad). cross-plattform means iOS too. Adobe Air allows me to deploy on all big mobile platforms and desktop browsers. I didn't test stage3d on mobile yet, but posts like this http://blogs.aerys.in/jeanmarc-leroux/2012/06/18/new-minko-2-features-normal-mapping-and-parallax-mapping/ are promising. for the desktop you need in-browser support for a real casual experience, especially when you want to integrate into social platforms. the need for in-browser gameplay is not present in mobile games, because you have a small screen and you are used to switch between apps. in-browser flash for mobile devices was/is useful to look at videos, the rest can be a standalone app w/o loosing anything, but gaining the possibility to extra charge for an app.

btw going with flash on the client-side for my long planned hobby indie project is something I thought about for a very long time since i prefer Java... The Adobe Creative Cloud nailed it for me because now I have Flash Builder & Co. for a fair price. At least the last time I used Flash Develop it was nothing near to NetBeans (my IDE of choice).
Offline gouessej
« Reply #52 - Posted 2012-06-28 22:38:11 »

iOS is a very restricted platform, you're completely under Apple's mercy who doesn't like Flash and crossplatform technologies in general. WebGL will be supported only in iAds, I assume Apple doesn't want developers to deploy applications without using its App Store. If you really want to target iOS without worrying Apple to ruin your work, you will have to use Objective C which is not crossplatform at all. Personally, I had already given up targetting iOS as supporting it would require too much efforts.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


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I'm the King!


« Reply #53 - Posted 2012-06-28 22:56:11 »

Thank god for Mario's efforts to bring iOS support to libGDX!

Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #54 - Posted 2012-06-29 05:23:25 »

Yeah libGDX is really cool I recommend it to everyone who wants to create an Android/Desktop game. It has a really cool featureset!

@gouessej Well Adobe Air compiles to Objective-C, I don't think Apple will do something against this. It's this way for some time now and I don't think they will change their policy in a weird way again since Steve Jobs is no more. I once developed an app with Objective-C for university and I hate XCode, when my game (which may never be finished since this is how most of these kind of projects work) doesn't work with Air on iOS I will have to port it manually...
Offline andyMak

Senior Newbie





« Reply #55 - Posted 2012-06-29 06:11:25 »

is there anywhere to see the amount of sales these days?

back in the day i would've thought iOS was where you would want to target and then came android Smiley

things i heard:
- you must have an apple product to create apple apps
- Apple has the final say, so you could spend alot of time on an app and they say No! we don't want it
- Apple developer was about $99 a year

Android:
 - can be developed on any system with the android sdk and eclipse
 - noone tells you that you can't put your app on the store but instead it works on permissions and the user has to accept it
- Android developer is $25 one of fee

and, i'm a huge Google fanboy, i just seem to like everything they bring out and support them

I would love to get into it, i used flash once to make a scrolling title and a music loop. sent it to my phone and ran it, it took up alot of ram compared to others, now i'm not sure if this is something i had done or if it was actually because it was created in flash.

this would be something i would like to know, for android is flash good for this? was it me or flash that makes it chew RAM?

There are 3 types of people in this world, those who can count and those who can't!
Offline Chromanoid

Junior Devvie


Medals: 3



« Reply #56 - Posted 2012-06-29 06:24:22 »

IMO there are five more or less ready-to-use choices, when you want to make a 3D cross-platform game, that works in the browser on desktop systems, and has a shared codebase for all systems.
here is my personal ranking:
ImportanceJava/Java Applet/WSGWT WebGL/HTML5 with Java/Java Applet/WS fallback(GWT) HTML5/WebGLUnityFlash
Ease of 2D content creation133231
Ease of 3D content creation123312
Ease of GUI creation134241
iOS Support233-12
Android Support211322
In-Browser availability221231
Performance212.5312
Pricing311132
Technology lifetime312 (Google support?)12 (one vendor)3
Java server compatibility413 (WebSocket)3 (WebSocket)22
Commercial support533312

@andyMak: iOS is like IE to me, too many (paying ?) users to ignore. I don't think Flash is that resource hungry, but for sure there is a performance disadvantage. To determine the resource hungriness we can make a start by testing the apps on this list http://www.appbrain.com/apps/popular/adobe-air/ Smiley
Offline gouessej
« Reply #57 - Posted 2012-06-29 16:59:37 »

Thank god for Mario's efforts to bring iOS support to libGDX!
Mario plans to use MonoTouch to do that, then you will have the same limitations than this thing, you will need a Mac to use it. Maybe you will have to purchase MonoTouch to use it.
Quote
MonoTouch is supported on Mac OS 10.6 (“Snow Leopard”) and Mac OS 10.7 (“Lion”)

MonoTouch requires the iOS 5 SDK bundled with Xcode 4. If you are a registered Apple iOS Developer you can download Xcode 4 from the iOS Developer Center

Offline badlogicgames

« JGO Bitwise Duke »


Medals: 74
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« Reply #58 - Posted 2012-07-18 10:01:16 »

Jupp, stuff costs money, big surprise. However, not all your team members need a Mac, you can test and code on whatever platform you have really. For final deployment/packaging you'll need a Mac, MonoTouch license and Apple developer's license. Can't do anything about that i'm afraid, but at least it's an option Smiley

http://www.badlogicgames.com - musings on Android and Java game development
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