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  Preferred OS?  (Read 47047 times)
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Offline davedes
« Reply #390 - Posted 2012-07-04 15:31:28 »

Quote
Don't want shortcuts, don't want commandline.
If you aren't using shortcuts to increase your productivity, then you are living in the past. Hell, my grandpa uses shortcuts.

Quote
Boot time is irrelevant, pc is up 24/7.
You never install new software? Your computer never freezes? You never leave your basement? Tongue And think of all that energy wasted!

Quote
Hangs and crashes and lags in program running all seem to me like some mythical beings from Tolkien stories.
If only that was the truth...

Offline xsvenson
« Reply #391 - Posted 2012-07-04 15:49:19 »

Quote
Don't want shortcuts, don't want commandline.
If you aren't using shortcuts to increase your productivity, then you are living in the past. Hell, my grandpa uses shortcuts.
You have an awesome grandpa!
Quote
Boot time is irrelevant, pc is up 24/7.
You never install new software? Your computer never freezes? You never leave your basement? Tongue And think of all that energy wasted!
I do install, what does that have to do with rebooting ? For some reason, I install software that does not need a restart. Lucky me Cheesy
However, I did lie a bit. The windows update every now and then needs a restart. But it manages itself at nights, so that doesn't involve me.
Pseudo 24/7?
And no, I don't leave the basement... I wish I had a basement though.
Quote
Hangs and crashes and lags in program running all seem to me like some mythical beings from Tolkien stories.
If only that was the truth...
Well it's rather matter of taste, so to say. If there are any hangs and lags, and there might be, then they just aren't registering in my brain.
There might be the possibility that I am just emotionless though...

“The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet.” - Michael A. Jackson
Offline Roquen
« Reply #392 - Posted 2012-07-04 17:26:29 »

Quote
If you aren't using shortcuts to increase your productivity, then you are living in the past.
You've got that backwards.  In the past shortcuts is what you had. Then we got animations and productivity has gone downhill since.  Smiley
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #393 - Posted 2012-07-05 02:38:23 »

Shortcut? what is that?

Go automatic!

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #394 - Posted 2012-07-19 04:10:26 »

I know a few mac users and when they tell me that mac is more stable and reliable, I do undestand the words, but I cannot comprehend the meaning.

Always makes me laugh too.  In my experience, stability is Linux -> Windows -> Mac.  And Mac a long way back.  I haven't met a Mac yet that didn't crash because I looked at it funny!  Wink
What, were you using Mac OS 9?

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline jonjava
« Reply #395 - Posted 2012-07-19 09:47:57 »

Desktop Linux is *not* for the ordinary layman. It's a tool for the highly skilled elite.

I guess that's true. But it shouldn't be. Computers are everywhere. We should be taught CS before we learn how to count! And it should be mandatory! If you have 0 idea of how your phone works then GODDAMIIIIT it can't be helped because the shools didn't teach you but they ought to f**king start, and quickly. And understanding computers start with linux shell. Imo.  Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #396 - Posted 2012-07-19 11:37:58 »

Linux being for the tech elite is pretty much BS these days isn't it?  It not like the old days when you had to compile and bootstrap yourself.  Pretty much all the differentiating factors are getting hidden away.

There's not such thing as a 'linux' shell.  There are various UNIX shells on pretty much every semi-POSIX-alike OS with a user base of more than 10.  And yeah, it is super useful to be able to use a shell at the minimum.  As an example a couple a weeks ago I needed to test some code that should be spewing out sets uniformly.  sort, uniq -c, cut and piping allowed me to verify correctness in about 5 minutes of my time.  If I had to write 'code' to do the verification, it would have taken me a few hours (assuming that I got it right the first time).
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #397 - Posted 2012-07-19 12:28:56 »

Linux being for the tech elite is pretty much BS these days isn't it?  It not like the old days when you had to compile and bootstrap yourself.  Pretty much all the differentiating factors are getting hidden away.

There's not such thing as a 'linux' shell.  There are various UNIX shells on pretty much every semi-POSIX-alike OS with a user base of more than 10.  And yeah, it is super useful to be able to use a shell at the minimum.  As an example a couple a weeks ago I needed to test some code that should be spewing out sets uniformly.  sort, uniq -c, cut and piping allowed me to verify correctness in about 5 minutes of my time.  If I had to write 'code' to do the verification, it would have taken me a few hours (assuming that I got it right the first time).
I consider myself reasonably au fait with computers and I still find Linux to be irritatingly difficult to use, mainly because of its total inconsistency. Where computers are these days for the ordinary layman is the iPad. Ordinary Windowsy computers - well, it's only when I talk to anyone outside of these forums and development circles that I realise just how much I know that "normal" people are totally utterly clueless about. So even ordinary Windows / Mac computers, the use and maintenance thereof, are really for the tech elite too. Normal people have just been forced to use them for 20 years, and by and large, nearly all of them hate it, it would seem.

Cas Smiley

Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #398 - Posted 2012-07-19 13:58:42 »

Normal people have just been forced to use them for 20 years, and by and large, nearly all of them hate it, it would seem.

So we're abnormal? Sad

Well I guess I am actually. I don't even have a smart phone. I don't even have a Twitter or Facebook account. All that stuff just doesn't interest me.

Not that I can blame those not computer-savvy for disliking computers though. No matter how much technology advances, it just doesn't get any easier. There is just... more.
Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #399 - Posted 2012-07-19 14:36:18 »

Linux being for the tech elite is pretty much BS these days isn't it?  It not like the old days when you had to compile and bootstrap yourself.  Pretty much all the differentiating factors are getting hidden away.

There's not such thing as a 'linux' shell.  There are various UNIX shells on pretty much every semi-POSIX-alike OS with a user base of more than 10.  And yeah, it is super useful to be able to use a shell at the minimum.  As an example a couple a weeks ago I needed to test some code that should be spewing out sets uniformly.  sort, uniq -c, cut and piping allowed me to verify correctness in about 5 minutes of my time.  If I had to write 'code' to do the verification, it would have taken me a few hours (assuming that I got it right the first time).
I consider myself reasonably au fait with computers and I still find Linux to be irritatingly difficult to use, mainly because of its total inconsistency. Where computers are these days for the ordinary layman is the iPad. Ordinary Windowsy computers - well, it's only when I talk to anyone outside of these forums and development circles that I realise just how much I know that "normal" people are totally utterly clueless about. So even ordinary Windows / Mac computers, the use and maintenance thereof, are really for the tech elite too. Normal people have just been forced to use them for 20 years, and by and large, nearly all of them hate it, it would seem.

Cas Smiley

If anyone doubts any of this, sit down with your parents once and get something done on the PC. Sometimes when I have to explain something to someone, I realize just how many people don't know anything about compression like zip-archives. How do you use a computer for ten years, and never have the need to download and extract a zip file? It's beyond me. It's not even just the elderly - it's my 20-year old mates as well.

Darn muggles Cheesy

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #400 - Posted 2012-07-19 19:50:36 »

Quote
If anyone doubts any of this, sit down with your parents once and get something done on the PC

Interestingly, not so long I go sat my parents down take a look at the latest Ubuntu. Just to see if they would be able to find the things that they mostly do (browsing, email, word) and if they would be comfortable with it.
I did this because I was kind of getting bored of their ongoing PC issues ("My documents are gone!", "I get this and that error!", "Someone called MacAffee wants me to pay for something I don't understand!" etc).
No problem at all. All they needed was right there on the desktop.

Now I'm not saying Ubuntu Linux is perfect, but for these kinds of users I'd argue it's probably the most user-friendly system around at the moment. Everything looks nice, and it's all right there out of the box.
However, things tend to get nasty if you get slightly out of that comfort zone. For example, recently I had to screw around with "udev rules", something I'd prefer to know nothing about, but I didn't have much of a choice. But by and large Ubuntu is my preferred OS.

That said, one very important reason for me to choose java as my main development language is my general hatred towards any OS. They're basically all ugly in slightly different ways.
Java gave me the option not to really have to choose in that regard.

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #401 - Posted 2012-07-19 21:49:12 »

Quote
If anyone doubts any of this, sit down with your parents once and get something done on the PC

Interestingly, not so long I go sat my parents down take a look at the latest Ubuntu. Just to see if they would be able to find the things that they mostly do (browsing, email, word) and if they would be comfortable with it.
I did this because I was kind of getting bored of their ongoing PC issues ("My documents are gone!", "I get this and that error!", "Someone called MacAffee wants me to pay for something I don't understand!" etc).
No problem at all. All they needed was right there on the desktop.

Now I'm not saying Ubuntu Linux is perfect, but for these kinds of users I'd argue it's probably the most user-friendly system around at the moment. Everything looks nice, and it's all right there out of the box.
However, things tend to get nasty if you get slightly out of that comfort zone. For example, recently I had to screw around with "udev rules", something I'd prefer to know nothing about, but I didn't have much of a choice. But by and large Ubuntu is my preferred OS.

That said, one very important reason for me to choose java as my main development language is my general hatred towards any OS. They're basically all ugly in slightly different ways.
Java gave me the option not to really have to choose in that regard.

My mother uses her Android tab, primarily. She does everything on there. It's quite interesting, because I can't be productive on my 10.1" tab, and she only has an 8".

Offline StumpyStrust
« Reply #402 - Posted 2012-07-19 22:19:47 »

If I sad down with my dad and tried to get something done on a PC, I would get schooled. On the other hand, with my mom...well...lets just say all the stereotypes become true.

I have not use OSX or any versions of Linux, but I have become very comfortable on xp. Win7 is not bad but still gets really annoying with the all the administrative rights crap. And vista...oh vista...

Most of the major new OSes are designed for people who are not tech savvy. And by that I mean they are designed so people will never have to learn anything about computers or electronics to get stuff done. It is a nice idea. I mean who needs to know how exactly they are communicating with severs and what not when they log on to facebook?

I want an OS designed for power users that is not all terminal like. Sadly, there is very little market there and what market there is shrinks every year as more and more people become technically challenged. It seems like the people who actually know wtf is going on these days just shrinks. Even in my programming classes most of my fellow students really are not all that great when it comes to technology. They can spit out all the lingo and code basic programs that are spoon fed to them but when you ask them stuff that any one who uses a computer for more than facebook and they all go o.O Although, I am not one to talk as I am still such a noob.


Offline Evil[1]

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1



« Reply #403 - Posted 2012-07-20 09:18:15 »

Win7, what else?

OSX?
Have to buy Apple hardware just to run the OS?
Nothing more to say. Not my cup of tea.

Linux?
Tried plain Ubuntu and MiNT. No, no, a thousand times.
Awkward desktop, awkward user experience.
Awkward anything. This system just feels wrong to me.
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #404 - Posted 2012-07-20 11:06:46 »


This system just feels wrong to me.

I think a lot of people agree with you and that's why a new distribution pops up every season to "make it better than all others" Smiley There are simply too many forking efforts and not enough concentrated efforts IMO. In stead of growing in select but important areas, Linux "blossoms" in all directions you can think of, but at a snails pace.

I'm sure that in 10 years time the OS will have grown to a point where the people of today can use it. But not the people that have to use it in 10 years time.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #405 - Posted 2012-07-20 11:11:24 »

1-0 to the Creationists theory of OS design Cheesy ("If you were walking in a field on day, and suddenly noticed at your feet a fully-formed and usuable operating system, would you assume it had just spontaneously evolved from Unix, or that somehow some higher power had created it and put it there?")

Increasingly I look to Android and iOS as how computers should work for the masses.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 131
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #406 - Posted 2012-07-20 11:51:47 »

The only reribution for us is to write our own OS...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #407 - Posted 2012-07-20 12:06:59 »

Funny thing is I would absolutely love to but I also have a completely realistic understanding of my abilities, time, and interest Smiley

That said - making something like Android would be fun - a Linux kernel buried underneath a LWJGL compositing desktop layer and proper JVM.

Cas Smiley

Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #408 - Posted 2012-07-20 12:36:32 »

That said - making something like Android would be fun - a Linux kernel buried underneath a LWJGL compositing desktop layer and proper JVM.

I'll settle for an OS where a JVM is properly maintained without user interaction Wink
Offline nsigma
« Reply #409 - Posted 2012-07-20 12:40:19 »

I know a few mac users and when they tell me that mac is more stable and reliable, I do undestand the words, but I cannot comprehend the meaning.

Always makes me laugh too.  In my experience, stability is Linux -> Windows -> Mac.  And Mac a long way back.  I haven't met a Mac yet that didn't crash because I looked at it funny!  Wink
What, were you using Mac OS 9?

So, you woke up this flamefest just to ask me that?!  Roll Eyes

Actually, both OS9 (even worse!) and OSX, though not used one recently.  To be fair I'm comparing other people's OSX systems with Windows and Linux ones I've set up myself (so I know what's on them).


Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Roquen
« Reply #410 - Posted 2012-07-20 12:45:51 »

Let me describe one of these OSes: hybrid monolithic-microkernel which logically runs multiple processes each of which can run multiple threads connected to a hierarchical file system with user based permission bits.  Which OS?  Everything in the wild.  They're toasters with pretty much identical guts inside.  So boring...so 70s.

Now jokingly someone brought up JavaOS.  You know what?  If java were to add: structures (with cache hints & SIMD support) and arrays of structures, building an OS out of java wouldn't be totally insane.  If fact it could be totally cool.  Monolithic kernels suck because they can't really be hot-configured.  Microkernel's suck because their too flexible and that slows stuff down too much.  So everyone's moved to a hybrid model.  Now, if the OS was written in a dynamic language like Java (and assuming the compiler is good enough) then a microkernel would be able to run at about the same speed as monolithic.  As a side benefit the OS running would target the exact hardware on which it's running instead of some baseline.  win. 

Now change the process model where it is running in a sandbox, then effectively each process has it's own virtual copy of the OS and is running alone (think security & viruses here).  Moreover, if you allowed profiles, then HOW the OS is configured could be per process.  Think fixed slots for threads, thread-local, etc.

How toss in a active filesystem...where file access permissions are programmable instead of fixed bits.  Win.  A meaningful virus would have to break into kernel mode, which should be hard to do without buffer-overruns and work it's way around the sandbox to do anything meaningful.

BTW: I'm talking 100% java, 0 native.  Would probably require maxine to get into a usable and approaching native compiled speed.
Offline BoBear2681

JGO Coder


Medals: 18



« Reply #411 - Posted 2012-07-20 13:34:42 »

I want an OS designed for power users that is not all terminal like.

What are the features you would look for in such an OS?

Offline Gudradain
« Reply #412 - Posted 2012-07-20 15:18:25 »

Just build a java interface that would simulate the perfect desktop interface for you.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #413 - Posted 2012-07-20 18:59:43 »

Win7, what else?

OSX?
Have to buy Apple hardware just to run the OS?
Nothing more to say. Not my cup of tea.

Linux?
Tried plain Ubuntu and MiNT. No, no, a thousand times.
Awkward desktop, awkward user experience.
Awkward anything. This system just feels wrong to me.

Heh, strangely enough nowadays Win7 just feels wrong to me. Too much clicking and nagging, clutter, inconsistencies, non-resizable windows and a generally nasty looking GUI.
I generally like OSX, but Apple didn't sell an ultrabook with the kind of specs I wanted when I was in the market, so I went for a Sony Vaio Z.
After a few weeks getting increasingly annoyed with Win7, I replaced it with Ubuntu. Now everything feels nice and snappy and all makes sense again Smiley
I do use the Gnome desktop instead of the standard Ubuntu desktop though.

Each to their own, I guess...

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 345
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #414 - Posted 2012-07-21 03:21:46 »

Heh, strangely enough nowadays Win7 just feels wrong to me. Too much clicking and nagging, clutter, inconsistencies, non-resizable windows and a generally nasty looking GUI.
You're not talking about Windows 7 here, you're talking about 3rd party apps...
But you're right, to each his own :S

Offline BoBear2681

JGO Coder


Medals: 18



« Reply #415 - Posted 2012-07-22 20:36:04 »

As of Windows 7, you still cannot resize the dialog to edit environment variables.
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #416 - Posted 2012-07-22 20:39:08 »

The windows environment editing dialog is ... awful.  Use RapidEE
Offline Roquen
« Reply #417 - Posted 2012-07-22 20:39:26 »

That is pretty sucky.  (and yet another reason to install cygwin)
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #418 - Posted 2012-07-22 20:41:12 »

Cygwin is all well and good but won't do anything for the environment for anything not launched from a cygwin shell.  Most of the windows UI annoyances have third party fixes here and there if you know where to look for them, but it does get annoying to have to put all those together, yeah.
Offline davedes
« Reply #419 - Posted 2012-07-22 20:55:28 »

The windows [insert feature here] is ... awful.  Use [insert third party app here]

The "standard" toolset really needs an upgrade, things like:
- simple image operations (e.g. resize, crop)
- screen shots
- burning CDs
- advanced file search (e.g. searching in file contents)
- video/audio playback
- handling ZIP/RAR
- Windows backup
- anything to do with the control panel (multiple displays, battery-saving options, etc)

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